billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 10, 2021 17:56:22 GMT -5
re: bolded The violence was not done in order to spread fear. It was done in order to gain access. With that criteria not being met, "and thereby ..." does not come into play. the two red things are saying the same thing.
this boils down to whether or not you agree that engendering terror through your actions is the same whether you INTEND to do so or not. and the definition ALSO does not include the word INTEND. therefore, I conclude that the actions meet the criterion whether that was the intention or not.
"... utilizes or threatens to utilize violence in order to spread fear ..." means the same as "with the intent to ..." in my thinking.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 10, 2021 18:31:36 GMT -5
just going through the list and comparing to Jan 6th: Although the term is not subject to a universally agreed definition, terrorism can be broadly understood as a method of coercion that utilizes or threatens to utilize violence in order to spread fear and thereby attain political or ideological goals. CHECKContemporary terrorist violence is thus distinguished in law from “ordinary” violence by the classic terrorist “triangle”: A attacks B, to convince or coerce C to change its position regarding some action or policy desired by A. what you are claiming is that this was a direct action, and therefore not meant to coerce C, but to basically ELIMNINATE C. i agree with that. however, in the end, C was highly influenced. the Stop The Steal bullshit is still going on, Bills, and is the existential reason for the uprising. if you step back and look at cause and effect, the intended act was a coup. HOWEVER, the impact is clearly the same as if the action had only been threatened and not actually done.The attack spreads fear as the violence is directed, unexpectedly, against innocent victims, which in turn puts pressure on third parties such as governments to change their policy or position. CHECKA did not attack B, it directly attacked C to coerce C to change its position .... right. that is what I said in red above. is there some reason you keep repeating an already conceded point?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 10, 2021 18:34:29 GMT -5
the two red things are saying the same thing.
this boils down to whether or not you agree that engendering terror through your actions is the same whether you INTEND to do so or not. and the definition ALSO does not include the word INTEND. therefore, I conclude that the actions meet the criterion whether that was the intention or not.
"... utilizes or threatens to utilize violence in order to spread fear ..." means the same as "with the intent to ..." in my thinking. I guess I am getting lost in the complexity of this definition, bills. to me, it doesn't matter whether they intended it or not. but I get that your definition depends on that.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 10, 2021 18:44:04 GMT -5
"... utilizes or threatens to utilize violence in order to spread fear ..." means the same as "with the intent to ..." in my thinking. I guess I am getting lost in the complexity of this definition, bills. to me, it doesn't matter whether they intended it or not. but I get that your definition depends on that.
It also requires an attack on an "innocent" entity B. As I stated earlier, an attack on a state capital would have created fear in 49 other states that they could be next and potentially influenced Federal Representatives and Senators to change votes. That would have been an act of terror and not an insurrection.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 18, 2021 19:24:46 GMT -5
Michelle Witthoeft bristled at the notion that her daughter was an insurrectionist.
...
"Donald Trump rallied his troops and Ashli was definitely [one of] his troops," she said.
link One of his troops that invaded the US Capital but not an insurrectionist? Right.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 18, 2021 20:33:58 GMT -5
Michelle Witthoeft bristled at the notion that her daughter was an insurrectionist.
...
"Donald Trump rallied his troops and Ashli was definitely [one of] his troops," she said.
link One of his troops that invaded the US Capital but not an insurrectionist? Right. Is it wrong I want to do a class action against her family? Sorry for your loss, but stupid actions sometimes have stupid consequences. A former NYPD officer assaulted Capitol police. (On the news) I hope he gets a harsher sentence, because of his job he knew better and so should have she.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 18, 2021 20:47:43 GMT -5
On Anderson Cooper's CNN show this evening, a brief clip of the leader of Cowboys For Trump was shown. The leader stated he did not believe Ashli Babbitt nor US Capitol Police Officer Brian Sicknick were dead.
More conspiracy theories.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Jun 19, 2021 5:15:34 GMT -5
Tourists do not perform breaking and entering and commit assault to gain entry. The whole GOP is living in an alternate reality.
I saw that some Christian group boo’d Mike Pence when he was talking about not agreeing with trump an certifying election results. I don’t think churches are following Christ’s teachings anymore. They are bending his words to their will. I don’t like Mike Pence, but they should respect him way way more than TFG.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 19, 2021 10:19:24 GMT -5
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jun 20, 2021 11:16:40 GMT -5
Michelle Witthoeft bristled at the notion that her daughter was an insurrectionist.
...
"Donald Trump rallied his troops and Ashli was definitely [one of] his troops," she said.
link One of his troops that invaded the US Capital but not an insurrectionist? Right. you got it. She was one of his troops that were just normal tourist doing normal touristy things like beating up police, scaling walls, breaking doors and windows, and climbing through said broken windows, etc., etc. - you know just normal honorable tourists whose actions should not be besmirched by all those horrible Loser hating DEMs...
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Bob Ross
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Post by Bob Ross on Jun 21, 2021 16:25:37 GMT -5
But now you are saying something different than the factual claim that no charges of insurrection have been filed. How do you know the DOJ presently has "no evidence yet found to charge with insurrection"? Maybe they have some amount of evidence, and are in the process of gathering more? Maybe they have enough evidence to charge, but are gathering even more to make their cases that much more bulletproof. Maybe they have all the evidence they need, or overwhelming evidence, and are now on the next steps of dotting all "i"s and crossing all "t"s before they formally file any charges? And maybe they are planning on filing said charges in one fell swoop, rather than piecemeal. There are any number of situations that could exist where evidence has been obtained but charges have not yet been filed. And you are not in a position to know. Neither am I. Surely as a past successful business owner, you have experience with the legal system and are aware of the (slow) pace of legal proceedings? Personally, I have been involved in one lawsuit...a case MUCH smaller than the entirety of this one, consisting solely of a matter between myself and another entity. It took a year and a half from start to finish, and ended with a settlement. It didn't even make it to court or else it would've taken even longer. Four months is a mere blip on the legal timeline, especially given the enormity of the situation involved. But like I said, time will tell, and I'll ask again. Do you think there will eventually be charges of insurrection / sedition / seditious conspiracy toward one or more parties for the Jan 6 events?You posted and asked this question about 6 weeks ago. I still haven't heard of any such charges against any of the participants of the protest. (underlined) July 6th will be 6 months in regards to 'time will tell'. In regards to the current time frame, I might be starting to have an inkling that these type of charges will not be forthcoming. Edit; As of June 15 the count is still under 500 charged. Oooh, but you see, the following just broke over the weekend, relating to Jan 6th "terrorist" Scott Gieswein. Perhaps Jan 6th was actually a terrorist attack? Could you imagine? Anyways, doesn't matter what you think, nor your arbitrary cutoff dates. Only matters what the end result is.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 21, 2021 19:23:42 GMT -5
the rate of arrests is slowing, but is still roughly 1 arrest per day. it should pass 500 in a few weeks.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 21, 2021 19:41:21 GMT -5
I bet there are a lot of people keeping their heads low and hoping they can just slide by. How many of the common foot soldiers need to be arrested anyway? Rank and file rarely get charged with crimes.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jun 21, 2021 19:45:19 GMT -5
You posted and asked this question about 6 weeks ago. I still haven't heard of any such charges against any of the participants of the protest. (underlined) July 6th will be 6 months in regards to 'time will tell'. In regards to the current time frame, I might be starting to have an inkling that these type of charges will not be forthcoming. Edit; As of June 15 the count is still under 500 charged. Oooh, but you see, the following just broke over the weekend, relating to Jan 6th "terrorist" Scott Gieswein. Perhaps Jan 6th was actually a terrorist attack? Could you imagine? Anyways, doesn't matter what you think, nor your arbitrary cutoff dates. Only matters what the end result is. Those are just normal touristy things you see there Bob Ross BTW, since there seems to be a whole section of the population that seems to be willing to say that, this may be were the expression "ugly American" when refering to American tourists comes from... Just sayin'
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 21, 2021 21:40:08 GMT -5
I bet there are a lot of people keeping their heads low and hoping they can just slide by. How many of the common foot soldiers need to be arrested anyway? Rank and file rarely get charged with crimes. more often than the top brass, unfortunately.
FMI: Abu Gharib and the case of "Dilawar"
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Bob Ross
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Post by Bob Ross on Jun 21, 2021 22:56:58 GMT -5
Oooh, but you see, the following just broke over the weekend, relating to Jan 6th "terrorist" Scott Gieswein. Perhaps Jan 6th was actually a terrorist attack? Could you imagine? Anyways, doesn't matter what you think, nor your arbitrary cutoff dates. Only matters what the end result is. So no charges yet, that actually matter in regards to insurrection. No one else has found any either. The end result is drawing closer. Even if your little semantical claim stands (and that's a big if), it still will be enjoyable watching you cling to that as the rest of your worldview crumbles around you. And if it doesn't, a monumental "in your face" will be both warranted and an inevitability. It's a win-win, really! These next few months should be fun. 🙂 How's your opinion of The Donald holding up, given...you know. 😉
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Bob Ross
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Post by Bob Ross on Jun 22, 2021 8:39:22 GMT -5
Even if your little semantical claim stands (and that's a big if), it still will be enjoyable watching you cling to that as the rest of your worldview crumbles around you. And if it doesn't, a monumental "in your face" will be both warranted and an inevitability. It's a win-win, really! These next few months should be fun. 🙂 How's your opinion of The Donald holding up, given...you know. 😉 We're just about to 500 being charged after nearly 6 months. Not even 1 being charged with anything related to actual insurrection ? So domestic terrorism's okay with you?
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Bob Ross
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Post by Bob Ross on Jun 22, 2021 8:57:24 GMT -5
Nothing to see here. Normal tourist day at The Capitol.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 22, 2021 9:46:16 GMT -5
Nothing to see here. Normal tourist day at The Capitol. Insurrection is about intent. The US Capital Building was illegally and violently entered with the objective of stopping the Constitutional process of selecting the next President. That is an act of insurrection. The fact it was poorly planned and executed does not matter. The fact that all who entered were not violent does not matter. The intent was there.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 22, 2021 10:26:12 GMT -5
Nothing to see here. Normal tourist day at The Capitol. The man purchased a replica of Nancy Pelosi's lectern at the tourist gift shop on January 6th during the Capitol's 'Guide-Free Tourist Day' celebration.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 22, 2021 11:00:11 GMT -5
Nothing to see here. Normal tourist day at The Capitol. Insurrection is about intent. The US Capital Building was illegally and violently entered with the objective of stopping the Constitutional process of selecting the next President. That is an act of insurrection. The fact it was poorly planned and executed does not matter. The fact that all who entered were not violent does not matter. The intent was there. DOJ has found there was preplanning involved to start a revolution. Yes, it was lame and didn’t work, but it was planned in advance.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 22, 2021 11:20:59 GMT -5
Insurrection is about intent. The US Capital Building was illegally and violently entered with the objective of stopping the Constitutional process of selecting the next President. That is an act of insurrection. The fact it was poorly planned and executed does not matter. The fact that all who entered were not violent does not matter. The intent was there. DOJ has found there was preplanning involved to start a revolution. Yes, it was lame and didn’t work, but it was planned in advance. True. Does it matter? In a court case involving the killing of someone, there is a different murder charge if pre-planning is involved. But first this isn't a court case. We don't have to prove anything, least of all it was "Insurrection in the First Degree". Whether the intent to stop Congress from doing its Constitutional duty was formed weeks, days, hours, minutes, or a second prior to entering the US Capital Building, doing so was an act of insurrection.
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Bob Ross
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Post by Bob Ross on Jun 22, 2021 12:43:24 GMT -5
So domestic terrorism's okay with you? Looks like a bunch of goofballs acting rowdy in your pictures. I'm more than patient enough to wait another month or two, to see what comes up as charges for their behavior. Prosecutors are going over the evidence as we type. So far after nearly 6 months, not much in the way of charges. The partisan authoritative declaration of insurrection seem to be losing steam in the media, as there has been nothing there legally to back it up. Those in academia have their wild theories on this, that's just fringe politics for most. Goofballs? Did you watch the video? You're "more than patient enough to wait another month or two"? How kind of you. Then what? You're not the authority on this, and like I said, your arbitrary cutoff dates don't matter. 6 months is nothing, especially for something of this magnitude. They've been investigating other cases for longer than that (Matt Gaetz, for example...I guess it's a certainty that that's a big nothingburger too?) This will be done when the DOJ says it's done.
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Bob Ross
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Post by Bob Ross on Jun 22, 2021 13:06:30 GMT -5
Goofballs? Did you watch the video? You're "more than patient enough to wait another month or two"? How kind of you. Then what? You're not the authority on this, and like I said, your arbitrary cutoff dates don't matter. 6 months is nothing, especially for something of this magnitude. They've been investigating other cases for longer than that (Matt Gaetz, for example...I guess it's a certainty that that's a big nothingburger too?) This will be done when the DOJ says it's done. You seem defensive on this. I've made no claim of authority or cutoff date. I guess we'll see what happens down the road. So far it's been all low level charges in close to 500 cases after nearly 6 months. Not even one person so far, that you were asking would be charged with, "charges of insurrection / sedition / seditious conspiracy toward one or more parties" (Your reply #310) Nah, I actually hope you continue down this path of rhetoric. It'll make the finale that much sweeter.
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Bob Ross
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Post by Bob Ross on Jun 22, 2021 13:29:41 GMT -5
Nah, I actually hope you continue down this path of rhetoric. It'll make the finale that much sweeter. You hope... You will. You know no other way.
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Bob Ross
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Post by Bob Ross on Jun 22, 2021 23:59:07 GMT -5
You will. You know no other way. ? Serious question: do you have Aspergers?
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Bob Ross
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Post by Bob Ross on Jun 23, 2021 8:55:45 GMT -5
Serious question: do you have Aspergers? Serious question, are you autistic ? I post with a younger Autistic woman (50?) on another proboards forum. She's not a really bad case and can function almost normally on a forum without drift. The new current list is 521 people charged in the Jan 6 protest, as of June 11. All are low level charges unrelated to the ones you listen in your post #310 Considering all the hyperbole from the liberal media, parroting the partisan authoritative declaration from the democrats, not even one insurrection or related charge out of this number of arrests. If they couldn't charge even one so far out of 521, doesn't look good for those swilling the media's blue koolaid. Nope, I'm not autistic. Nice deflection though. It was a simple question. See how easy it was to answer? Incessant repetition is one of the symptoms. An interesting thing about you Trumpists... You'll troll on a topic that isn't likely to work out for you in the long run. Not sure what the intended end game is with that? Transactional instant gratification, perhaps? Or pure annoyance? Lack of social awareness is another symptom.
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Jun 23, 2021 10:25:12 GMT -5
Hey guys ......... time to grow up and ignore each other.
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Bob Ross
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Post by Bob Ross on Jun 23, 2021 10:48:41 GMT -5
Hey guys ......... time to grow up and ignore each other. I don't wanna grow up, I'm a Toys R Us kid! Besides, D23 can't ignore me. I'm his fav! BANZAI!
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Bob Ross
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Post by Bob Ross on Jun 23, 2021 11:06:13 GMT -5
Nope, I'm not autistic. Nice deflection though. It was a simple question. See how easy it was to answer? Incessant repetition is one of the symptoms. An interesting thing about you Trumpists... You'll troll on a topic that isn't likely to work out for you in the long run. Not sure what the intended end game is with that? Transactional instant gratification, perhaps? Or pure annoyance? Lack of social awareness is another symptom. Reminds me of you, NO YOU ARE! (FYI, whenever you make an ultra-clever comeback that basically says "no you are", that is what I'll post.) Oh and a question... You mentioned "swilling the media's blue koolaid" above. I wish not to be fooled by the blue media fake news any longer, so what are some trusted, reputable, "D23 vetted and approved" sources from which I can learn the truth? I asked you this once before, but you never answered.
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