Back to "Normal" or "New Normal"

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Apr 29, 2021 17:00:55 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 29, 2021 12:59:36 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Because Darwin would take out a lot of those who are non Darwin’s.  I have a friend whose sister has an autoimmune disease.  She has been immunized and has absolutely NO immunity.  My friend flew to her to help her out following surgery.  My friend quarantined 2 weeks and tested despite being vaccinated, so she can be a caregiver to her sister.

Herd immunity isn’t just about protecting the individual, but protecting those who cannot protect themselves.....through no fault of their own, but genetics.

But it's not the rest of the world's duty to take risks themselves to protect her. And it is not the moral high ground to insist they do.

 OK.  But what goes around, comes around.  One day you'll be old and hope that there are people out there who look out for your best interests too.  Elderly lose their ability to mount an immune response, so there may come a day where your vaccination may not help you anymore and you will be dependent upon others 'moral high ground' to protect you - that is, unless you plan on spending the rest of your life isolated.  

[minnesotapaintlady]

Apr 29, 2021 17:02:37 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 29, 2021 11:03:07 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I really doubt the sincerity of the "worried about what's in it" excuse from a lot of people...at least the ones I know that are not planning to get it.  For them it's more of a big "F you" statement to the wussy Dems.  I find it very amusing hearing these statements walking through the smoking break area of the composites manufacturing company where it's been proven all that shit they work with causes cancer, but hey, it pays way more than the electronics places!

Ya, you just ignore and ridicule people that do express sincere concern. I know, I've been one of them.

Say what? When did I ridicule you for being concerned about the vaccine?

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 29, 2021 17:00:55 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 29, 2021 12:59:36 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Because Darwin would take out a lot of those who are non Darwin’s.  I have a friend whose sister has an autoimmune disease.  She has been immunized and has absolutely NO immunity.  My friend flew to her to help her out following surgery.  My friend quarantined 2 weeks and tested despite being vaccinated, so she can be a caregiver to her sister.

Herd immunity isn’t just about protecting the individual, but protecting those who cannot protect themselves.....through no fault of their own, but genetics.

But it's not the rest of the world's duty to take risks themselves to protect her. And it is not the moral high ground to insist they do.

You, who have expressed your dismay at how many issues in the US, and think we should do more to care for others more than we do, now say we have no responsibility towards others in regard to this. I thought Canadians cared more about their fellow man than Americans. I guess it was all for show.

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 29, 2021 17:06:19 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 29, 2021 12:51:46 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

People can decide what they want to do. Society can decide if there are requirements to be able to do things. "No shirt, no shoes, no service" seems to be in place everywhere. Typhoid Mary did not get sick, but was barred from working in the food service industry because of her infecting others. Are you ok with eating food prepared by her. Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Polio, Smallpox are no longer scourges due to vaccines. We knew less about what was in those vaccines than what is in the coronavirus vaccines. Your right to do what you want ends when it affects me. You have no right to infect others, it is no different than assault. If you do not want to be vaccinated(as opposed to can't), you, and not the medically fragile should be the ones who has limits on their activities placed.

You have the right to refuse(as of now). It does not mean that society has to accept that with no restrictions on you. Otherwise, you are no better than people who insist on doing whatever they wish without consequences

Did you read the post from the food worker that considered it belittling to have to wear a mask?

You were talking about putting things not your body. A mask sits on your body. Quite a bit of difference, don’t you think?

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 29, 2021 17:27:43 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Apr 29, 2021 17:00:55 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

But it's not the rest of the world's duty to take risks themselves to protect her. And it is not the moral high ground to insist they do.

 OK.  But what goes around, comes around.  One day you'll be old and hope that there are people out there who look out for your best interests too.  Elderly lose their ability to mount an immune response, so there may come a day where your vaccination may not help you anymore and you will be dependent upon others 'moral high ground' to protect you - that is, unless you plan on spending the rest of your life isolated.  

100% agree. In my experience, the people who are most against caring about others, suddenly become quite demanding when they all of a sudden need help from others

[Opti]

Apr 29, 2021 17:06:19 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 29, 2021 12:51:46 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

People can decide what they want to do. Society can decide if there are requirements to be able to do things. "No shirt, no shoes, no service" seems to be in place everywhere. Typhoid Mary did not get sick, but was barred from working in the food service industry because of her infecting others. Are you ok with eating food prepared by her. Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Polio, Smallpox are no longer scourges due to vaccines. We knew less about what was in those vaccines than what is in the coronavirus vaccines. Your right to do what you want ends when it affects me. You have no right to infect others, it is no different than assault. If you do not want to be vaccinated(as opposed to can't), you, and not the medically fragile should be the ones who has limits on their activities placed.

You have the right to refuse(as of now). It does not mean that society has to accept that with no restrictions on you. Otherwise, you are no better than people who insist on doing whatever they wish without consequences

Did you read the post from the food worker that considered it belittling to have to wear a mask?

I read that post very differently and I agree with her given my long time reading of NAR - Not Always Right. Lots of people treat food service workers as peons and having them mask up when no one else does will only make that job harder and crueler for those who do it. At places like Subway, some of your problems come from customers too, and those customers most likely to lean over counters are the least likely to wear masks correctly now. 

[laterbloomer]

Apr 29, 2021 17:42:04 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Apr 29, 2021 17:06:19 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Did you read the post from the food worker that considered it belittling to have to wear a mask?

You were talking about putting things not your body. A mask sits on your body. Quite a bit of difference, don’t you think?

I really do. I find it funny you find it easier to tell someone to put something in their body.

[laterbloomer]

Apr 29, 2021 17:27:43 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Apr 29, 2021 17:00:55 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

But it's not the rest of the world's duty to take risks themselves to protect her. And it is not the moral high ground to insist they do.

 OK.  But what goes around, comes around.  One day you'll be old and hope that there are people out there who look out for your best interests too.  Elderly lose their ability to mount an immune response, so there may come a day where your vaccination may not help you anymore and you will be dependent upon others 'moral high ground' to protect you - that is, unless you plan on spending the rest of your life isolated.  

Yes I may hope they do, but it won't be their duty to do it. Nobody is obligated to put themselves at risk to alleviate my risk. I would be grateful if they do, but I have no right to demand it.

[laterbloomer]

Apr 29, 2021 17:40:46 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Apr 29, 2021 17:00:55 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

But it's not the rest of the world's duty to take risks themselves to protect her. And it is not the moral high ground to insist they do.

You, who have expressed your dismay at how many issues in the US, and think we should do more to care for others more than we do, now say we have no responsibility towards others in regard to this. I thought Canadians cared more about their fellow man than Americans. I guess it was all for show.

Exactly, I am a pretty liberal person. I do believe in helping my fellow humans. I also believe that demanding other people put themselves at risk to mitigate your risk is too much. You have decided it's worth the risk to you. It isn't your place to make that choice for everyone.

[TheOtherMe]

With some of the attitudes expressed here, covid will never be over.  

[laterbloomer]

Apr 29, 2021 20:55:21 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

With some of the attitudes expressed here, covid will never be over.  

Me and mine are vaccinated. It's just about over for us.

[Lizard Queen]

Apr 29, 2021 20:33:11 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 29, 2021 17:40:46 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

You, who have expressed your dismay at how many issues in the US, and think we should do more to care for others more than we do, now say we have no responsibility towards others in regard to this. I thought Canadians cared more about their fellow man than Americans. I guess it was all for show.

Exactly, I am a pretty liberal person. I do believe in helping my fellow humans. I also believe that demanding other people put themselves at risk to mitigate your risk is too much. You have decided it's worth the risk to you. It isn't your place to make that choice for everyone.

As I mentioned before,  the risk of the vaccine is less than the risk of cover. Therefore,  barring a few with extenuating medical issues  (who would be given a pass), it is demanding people to put themselves at less risk than going without. 

[stillmovingforward]

Just saying, even though I have an autoimmune disorder and take immunosuppressants by the vial-full, I'd like to live long enough to see my kids get launched into adulthood.
Drs don't think the vaccine "takes" on people who are in my position. I got the shot as soon as I could but still wear my mask. I will forever have to be so careful and avoid people, restaurants, shopping and everything else that everyone misses.
It would be great to have more people be willing to get vaccinated so I could have a bit of a normal life, but we aren't counting on it.
It's depressing to hear people not care. I'm always like "thanks a lot. That's me you are taking about."

[laterbloomer]

Apr 29, 2021 21:12:40 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Apr 29, 2021 20:33:11 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Exactly, I am a pretty liberal person. I do believe in helping my fellow humans. I also believe that demanding other people put themselves at risk to mitigate your risk is too much. You have decided it's worth the risk to you. It isn't your place to make that choice for everyone.

As I mentioned before,  the risk of the vaccine is less than the risk of cover. Therefore,  barring a few with extenuating medical issues  (who would be given a pass), it is demanding people to put themselves at less risk than going without. 

But that is not your decision to make for them. Bodily autonomy should be the most basic of human rights. If it was Putin or Kim insisting everyone be vaccinated I think a lot of people would see the problem.

[laterbloomer]

Apr 29, 2021 21:23:29 GMT -5 stillmovingforward said:

Just saying, even though I have an autoimmune disorder and take immunosuppressants by the vial-full, I'd like to live long enough to see my kids get launched into adulthood.
Drs don't think the vaccine "takes" on people who are in my position. I got the shot as soon as I could but still wear my mask. I will forever have to be so careful and avoid people, restaurants, shopping and everything else that everyone misses.
It would be great to have more people be willing to get vaccinated so I could have a bit of a normal life, but we aren't counting on it.
It's depressing to hear people not care. I'm always like "thanks a lot. That's me you are taking about."

How would you feel if someone you know got the vaccine to keep you safe and they got blood clots from it and died?

[stillmovingforward]

Apr 29, 2021 21:25:30 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 29, 2021 21:23:29 GMT -5 stillmovingforward said:

Just saying, even though I have an autoimmune disorder and take immunosuppressants by the vial-full, I'd like to live long enough to see my kids get launched into adulthood.
Drs don't think the vaccine "takes" on people who are in my position. I got the shot as soon as I could but still wear my mask. I will forever have to be so careful and avoid people, restaurants, shopping and everything else that everyone misses.
It would be great to have more people be willing to get vaccinated so I could have a bit of a normal life, but we aren't counting on it.
It's depressing to hear people not care. I'm always like "thanks a lot. That's me you are taking about."

How would you feel if someone you know got the vaccine to keep you safe and they got blood clots from it and died?

You can play that game forever. It's an old one.

[NastyWoman]

Apr 29, 2021 21:36:43 GMT -5 stillmovingforward said:

Apr 29, 2021 21:25:30 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

How would you feel if someone you know got the vaccine to keep you safe and they got blood clots from it and died?

You can play that game forever. It's an old one.

Actually that captures my feelings about this situation exactly, except not quite the way Later intends it to. My feeling about this is you don't follow the rules (in this case get vaccinate, you don't get to play - go into isolation for the rest of your life if that is preferred over the vaccine. But just like you are not allowed to drive under the influence because you pose a danger to others, you should not be allowed to go out if you refuse to get vaccinated.   

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 29, 2021 21:04:01 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 29, 2021 20:55:21 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

With some of the attitudes expressed here, covid will never be over.  

Me and mine are vaccinated. It's just about over for us.

That is a fallacy. The virus will continue to circulate, so life will not go back to normal. How long immunity lasts is still unknown. To date, all variants seem to be susceptible to the vaccines, but the more it is allowed to circulate, the greater chance that a truly dangerous strain emerges. Economically, we will not see a full recovery if people who do not respond as well are still afraid to reintegrate into society.

I find it hypocritical for you to criticize the US for not doing things that force people to do things they do not wish to do when you are saying the same thing, as well as you willingness to sacrifice a not insignificant part of society. Collective action is needed to overcome a crisis. Yes, some people may be adversely affected, the only difference is who. You are unwilling to accept the harm done to those the vaccine do not protect.

Finally, do you think schools should require childhoods I’d vaccines in order to attend? If so, you are truly a hypocrite. If not, you are willing to accept the return of these diseases

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 29, 2021 21:51:39 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Apr 29, 2021 21:36:43 GMT -5 stillmovingforward said:

You can play that game forever. It's an old one.

Actually that captures my feelings about this situation exactly, except not quite the way Later intends it to. My feeling about this is you don't follow the rules (in this case get vaccinate, you don't get to play - go into isolation for the rest of your life if that is preferred over the vaccine. But just like you are not allowed to drive under the influence because you pose a danger to others, you should not be allowed to go out if you refuse to get vaccinated.   

I agree 100%. You can choose not to vaccinate. You just do not get to reintegrate into society due to your risk to others.

[laterbloomer]

Apr 29, 2021 21:36:43 GMT -5 stillmovingforward said:

Apr 29, 2021 21:25:30 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

How would you feel if someone you know got the vaccine to keep you safe and they got blood clots from it and died?

You can play that game forever. It's an old one.

I know, it's the game people are playing to try to make people get vaccinated.

[laterbloomer]

Apr 29, 2021 21:51:39 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Apr 29, 2021 21:36:43 GMT -5 stillmovingforward said:

You can play that game forever. It's an old one.

Actually that captures my feelings about this situation exactly, except not quite the way Later intends it to. My feeling about this is you don't follow the rules (in this case get vaccinate, you don't get to play - go into isolation for the rest of your life if that is preferred over the vaccine. But just like you are not allowed to drive under the influence because you pose a danger to others, you should not be allowed to go out if you refuse to get vaccinated.   

And that does not strike you as a totally evil thing to do? You are seriously suggesting effectively imprisoning perfectly healthy people because they might contract an illness and then they might come in contact with an immunicompromised person? exactly when did the unhealthiest among us become the priority?

[laterbloomer]

Apr 29, 2021 22:03:25 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Apr 29, 2021 21:51:39 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Actually that captures my feelings about this situation exactly, except not quite the way Later intends it to. My feeling about this is you don't follow the rules (in this case get vaccinate, you don't get to play - go into isolation for the rest of your life if that is preferred over the vaccine. But just like you are not allowed to drive under the influence because you pose a danger to others, you should not be allowed to go out if you refuse to get vaccinated.   

I agree 100%. You can choose not to vaccinate. You just do not get to reintegrate into society due to your risk to others.

Then say good bye to all you human rights and freedoms.

[laterbloomer]

Apr 29, 2021 21:58:14 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Apr 29, 2021 21:04:01 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Me and mine are vaccinated. It's just about over for us.

That is a fallacy. The virus will continue to circulate, so life will not go back to normal. How long immunity lasts is still unknown. To date, all variants seem to be susceptible to the vaccines, but the more it is allowed to circulate, the greater chance that a truly dangerous strain emerges. Economically, we will not see a full recovery if people who do not respond as well are still afraid to reintegrate into society.

I find it hypocritical for you to criticize the US for not doing things that force people to do things they do not wish to do when you are saying the same thing, as well as you willingness to sacrifice a not insignificant part of society. Collective action is needed to overcome a crisis. Yes, some people may be adversely affected, the only difference is who. You are unwilling to accept the harm done to those the vaccine do not protect.

Finally, do you think schools should require childhoods I’d vaccines in order to attend? If so, you are truly a hypocrite. If not, you are willing to accept the return of these diseases

You are a name calling asshole.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Apr 29, 2021 21:23:29 GMT -5 stillmovingforward said:

Just saying, even though I have an autoimmune disorder and take immunosuppressants by the vial-full, I'd like to live long enough to see my kids get launched into adulthood.
Drs don't think the vaccine "takes" on people who are in my position. I got the shot as soon as I could but still wear my mask. I will forever have to be so careful and avoid people, restaurants, shopping and everything else that everyone misses.
It would be great to have more people be willing to get vaccinated so I could have a bit of a normal life, but we aren't counting on it.
It's depressing to hear people not care. I'm always like "thanks a lot. That's me you are taking about."

I’m sorry.  You sound like my friend’s sister.....and a lot of other people in groups I’m on who are dealing with this.  

Too bad people don’t realize that ANYONE can wind up in your position.  It’s very narrow minded and IMO selfish.

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 29, 2021 22:37:51 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 29, 2021 21:51:39 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Actually that captures my feelings about this situation exactly, except not quite the way Later intends it to. My feeling about this is you don't follow the rules (in this case get vaccinate, you don't get to play - go into isolation for the rest of your life if that is preferred over the vaccine. But just like you are not allowed to drive under the influence because you pose a danger to others, you should not be allowed to go out if you refuse to get vaccinated.   

And that does not strike you as a totally evil thing to do? You are seriously suggesting effectively imprisoning perfectly healthy people because they might contract an illness and then they might come in contact with an immunicompromised person? exactly when did the unhealthiest among us become the priority?

Some group gets imprisoned. That is what you refuse to accept. The medically vulnerable are going to be held hostage by the vaccine refuses, through no fault of their own. The refugees are making their choice. They need to own it and suffer the consequences

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 29, 2021 22:40:24 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 29, 2021 21:58:14 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

That is a fallacy. The virus will continue to circulate, so life will not go back to normal. How long immunity lasts is still unknown. To date, all variants seem to be susceptible to the vaccines, but the more it is allowed to circulate, the greater chance that a truly dangerous strain emerges. Economically, we will not see a full recovery if people who do not respond as well are still afraid to reintegrate into society.

I find it hypocritical for you to criticize the US for not doing things that force people to do things they do not wish to do when you are saying the same thing, as well as you willingness to sacrifice a not insignificant part of society. Collective action is needed to overcome a crisis. Yes, some people may be adversely affected, the only difference is who. You are unwilling to accept the harm done to those the vaccine do not protect.

Finally, do you think schools should require childhoods I’d vaccines in order to attend? If so, you are truly a hypocrite. If not, you are willing to accept the return of these diseases

You are a name calling asshole.

Didn’t answer the question regarding vaccinations and schools.

Calling me a name calling asshole doesn’t make you one? You just don’t like facing the reality of you position pointed out to you

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 29, 2021 22:39:05 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 29, 2021 22:03:25 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

I agree 100%. You can choose not to vaccinate. You just do not get to reintegrate into society due to your risk to others.

Then say good bye to all you human rights and freedoms.

All freedom is conditional. Your position affects the right to life of the medically vulnerable as the unvaccinated represent a threat to their life. The first freedoms enunciated in the Declaration of Independence is the right to life.

[Lizard Queen]

Apr 29, 2021 21:23:52 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 29, 2021 21:12:40 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

As I mentioned before,  the risk of the vaccine is less than the risk of cover. Therefore,  barring a few with extenuating medical issues  (who would be given a pass), it is demanding people to put themselves at less risk than going without. 

But that is not your decision to make for them. Bodily autonomy should be the most basic of human rights. If it was Putin or Kim insisting everyone be vaccinated I think a lot of people would see the problem.

I'm not holding them down and sticking a needle in them. I'm asking to make a win-win decision.

[wvugurl26]

Silly me I thought one of the marks of an advanced, civilized society was taking care of its most vulnerable. The whole point of everyone being vaccinated is to protect those who can't take the vaccine for medical reasons or for whom it doesn't work.

[TheOtherMe]

As we have said in Iowa since the beginning of Covid the attitude express by Later is why we can't have nice things.

Also, Covid isn't over for you and yours just because you are vaccinated.  The world is bigger than your circle.

So I live alone.  Maybe I had decided that I never wanted to go places again so I didn't get vaccinated.  That would have made me an a$$hole because that life of never going anywhere can not be sustained.

I want the vulnerable people to be able to feel safe doing the same thing.  

Canada isn't doing all that great in handling Covid.