Abstinence

[thyme4change]

www.nytimes.com/2021/04/06/us/abstinence-pledge-evangelicals.html?smid=url-share

How an Abstinence Pledge in the ’90s Shamed a Generation of Evangelicals

The Christian “purity” movement promoted a strict view of abstinence before marriage. But two decades later, some followers are grappling with unforeseen aftershocks.
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Part of the problem for some critics of the movement is its emphasis on virginity as the greatest gift a man and a woman can bestow on each other. To them, other aspects of a healthy relationship seem to take a back seat, including core human elements like emotional attachment, intellectual compatibility or the simple virtues of kindness and understanding.

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I have noticed that among my children's friends, the ones who were most obsessed with crushes, dating and sex (especially the sex) were, without fail, the ones who went to church regularly. Not to say that none of the other haven't dated, or had sex, but there was a weird unhealthiness about "boys", "marriage" and "sex" from a young age among the faithful.

Anyone have experience with churches and teens and sex?

[happyhoix]

My son dated his way through his youth group.

I don’t think he did that on purpose. He was a little shy though and it was easier to talk to a smaller group of girls.

[Tennesseer]

[Deleted]

There's a middle ground.

First of all, I think purity balls are creepy.

I was raised Roman Catholic but when my hormones kicked into gear that sort of went out the window. When I went away to college and was in mostly-male classes- well, I took advantage of my freedom. I had the brains (and some luck because my contraception never failed) not to get pregnant till I was ready at age 31, but it took therapy to get over my guilt complex- and I still have a bit of it 50 years later.

DS IS an evangelical. He and DDIL may have actually waited till the wedding night. Their church encourages group activities until a couple agrees that they want to date exclusively with an eye towards marriage if it works out. The guy makes the suggestion to date, of course. DS asked two girls whose response was "I like you but.." The third was DDIL. She's a treasure. I could not have chosen better myself. Their wedding views included "I will not divorce you" so yes, they DID take other aspects of the relationship into their decision. Divorce is only a last resort in that church although it's understood that in an abusive marriage that may be the best option.

Seven years and 3 children later, it's a very healthy marriage, in my view. There's still PDA in front of me and they make decisions as a team. I'm so thankful for what they've built together.

I do not want my granddaughters attending purity balls or feeling like used merchandise if they do choose to have sex before marriage. Nor do I want them having some of the hookups I had in my 20s- they leave you feeling empty in the end. It's going to be an interesting road to walk because if I discuss this with them when they're older I want to respect DS and DDIL's beliefs- but we'll find a way.

[raeoflyte]

My religious friends growing up knew absolutely nothing about sex. It was terrifying.

I was raised catholic, but mom was 100% pro birth control and never hesitated to disagree with the church teachings.

Every person who pushes purity and abstinence only should read and listen to Elizabeth Smart's take on it. That belief teaches kids, and girls in particular, that they are always to blame for abuse. That they have no worth and can't be redeemed for actions they can't prevent. It makes me absolutely sick to hear what they teach in those classes.

[giramomma]

I dunno. We send our kids to 4k-8 Catholic School.

We are fairly regular church go-ers.

None of my kids have a weird obsession with dating, etc.

Though, DS has decided he's an atheist..but I don't think that is the reason why he's not really dating.

DD1 hasn't shown interest in dating, etc and she's 13. 

Now, the peanut did have a crush on a boy when she was 6.

I was raised in the Catholic faith. I'm pretty sure I'm agnostic. I had plenty of male attention in middle/high school. I kept my legs crossed because 1) I didn't know how to raise a child at 15 by myself, while going to school and working full time (my parents would have kicked me out) and 2) I was at least smart enough to know college was my ticket to getting out from under my parents..and smart enough to know I shouldn't screw that up.

[justme]

You mean making something forbidden actually makes people obsessed with hidden fruit? You don't say!


I feel like there was a book that had a story that related how it all went wrong when something was made forbidden fruit....

[happyhoix]

My parents lived in a very rural southwest county in Georgia for a few years and my mom observed that all the women who were raised there all seemed to have gotten married at sixteen, stayed married a few years and then divorced. Later they married the long term husband.

There is the thought in some religions to marry the girls off early before they fall into sin. The divorce part, though, is not usual for evangelicals.

[happyhoix]

I went to my nieces wedding about 12 years ago. It was with a very conservative church. My niece had remained celibate before marriage and the minister kept raving on about how she was an untarnished flower. That and his comments about her needing to stay submissive to her husband were gag worthy. He never commented on whether the groom was an untarnished flower....

[billisonboard]

[Deleted]

Apr 8, 2021 11:20:51 GMT -5 giramomma said:

I kept my legs crossed because 1) I didn't know how to raise a child at 15 by myself, while going to school and working full time (my parents would have kicked me out) and 2) I was at least smart enough to know college was my ticket to getting out from under my parents..and smart enough to know I shouldn't screw that up.

Well, I didn't keep my legs crossed but I DID use contraception diligently for the same reasons!

Apr 8, 2021 12:34:46 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

I went to my nieces wedding about 12 years ago. It was with a very conservative church. My niece had remained celibate before marriage and the minister kept raving on about how she was an untarnished flower. That and his comments about her needing to stay submissive to her husband were gag worthy. He never commented on whether the groom was an untarnished flower....

I would be SO tempted to walk out except that it would ruin the ceremony for her family and friends. And how did the minister KNOW she was "untarnished"? Did she have to supply a medical certification? What if they WERE indulging and she'd have had to sit there and feel like a hypocrite?

And I agree that it's totally wrong-headed to put less emphasis on the guy's history. My grandson isn't quite 2 yet but he will NOT be raised with the notion that he can sow all the wild oats he wants but should demand a virgin when he marries.

[haapai]

I have been extremely lucky to have little contact with or experience with purity culture. 

It helps that I am 52, and was 25 or so when that garbage began to bloom in the US..

It helps that my parents were good little Methodists when they were kids but had stopped attending church by the time that I was born. 

It helps that I spent five or six years of my childhood in developing countries where women and girls went everywhere in pairs once puberty hit..  It was stultifying and it was done to protect girls and women from sexual predation, which was rampant.  It also didn't work particularly well. 

It also helps that I'm not straight and my friends weren't either.  None of us had much trouble figuring out that purity culture was larded with bullshit and patriarchy.  Some of us had come from fairly religious backgrounds and missed the culture that constantly admonished us to be better persons but it was also obvious to us that that same culture wasn't going to remember those lessons if we ever had to be honest about what rolled our socks down. 

[Deleted]

Apr 8, 2021 13:54:49 GMT -5 haapai said:

I have been extremely lucky to have little contact with or experience with purity culture. 

It helps that I am 52, and was 25 or so when that garbage began to bloom in the US..

It helps that my parents were good little Methodists when they were kids but had stopped attending church by the time that I was born. 

It helps that I spent five or six years of my childhood in developing countries where women and girls went everywhere in pairs once puberty hit..  It was stultifying and it was done to protect girls and women from sexual predation, which was rampant.  It also didn't work particularly well. 

The purity culture has been around in one form or another for a very long time.  It was drilled into me in the 1950s and 1960s.  

A friend in India once posted a FB meme after yet another woman was brutally assaulted on a public bus saying, in effect, "Instead of teaching our daughters to protect themselves, how about teaching our sons to behave".  

Yes.  He got it.

[haapai]

Apr 8, 2021 13:59:37 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Apr 8, 2021 13:54:49 GMT -5 haapai said:

I have been extremely lucky to have little contact with or experience with purity culture. 

It helps that I am 52, and was 25 or so when that garbage began to bloom in the US..

It helps that my parents were good little Methodists when they were kids but had stopped attending church by the time that I was born. 

It helps that I spent five or six years of my childhood in developing countries where women and girls went everywhere in pairs once puberty hit..  It was stultifying and it was done to protect girls and women from sexual predation, which was rampant.  It also didn't work particularly well. 

The purity culture has been around in one form or another for a very long time.  It was drilled into me in the 1950s and 1960s.  

A friend in India once posted a FB meme after yet another woman was brutally assaulted on a public bus saying, in effect, "Instead of teaching our daughters to protect themselves, how about teaching our sons to behave".  

Yes.  He got it.

I think that you have honed in on the most important reason why purity culture repelled me.  The rest of what I had to say was pretty much fluff and filler. 

[thyme4change]

Apr 8, 2021 12:40:06 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Am I supposed to know what this is?

[billisonboard]

Apr 8, 2021 14:37:38 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Apr 8, 2021 12:40:06 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Am I supposed to know what this is?

Metaphorical representation of what one can choose to "taste" in regards to human sexual experiences.

[haapai]

I'm just as ignorant, dense, and out-of-it as thyme, and willing to say as much, once someone else has spoken up. 

I see a feast, or maybe a smorgasbord and the folks in the picture appear to be Asian.  (May I mention now that my eyes are deteriorating rapidly and I don't know how to trace and expand this image to accommodate my weak eyes?) 

I don't know what I am looking at or what it means either. 

[haapai]

Apr 8, 2021 14:49:31 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 8, 2021 14:37:38 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Am I supposed to know what this is?

Metaphorical representation of what one can choose to "taste" in regards to human sexual experiences.

Whoa, that spread looks tasty but I can't help but notice that it's pretty heavy on the seafood! 

It does not accurately reflect the preferences of a whole lot of us.  It reflects mine just fine, but it ain't that representative. 

[jerseygirl]

Thought it was an ad for a restaurant and just skipped over it

[billisonboard]

Man. Colossal fail of a post. 

[Lizard Queen]

I had to think about  it,  but I  got it. Wasn't  exactly sure  what it had to do with this specific  topic, though. I'm not sure these people are all vanilla once the cat is out of the bag.  Maybe 

[Cheesy FL-Vol]

Apr 8, 2021 15:20:24 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Man. Colossal fail of a post. 

I actually interpreted it the way you intended. 

[bean29]

Apr 8, 2021 15:44:21 GMT -5 Cheesy FL-Vol said:

Apr 8, 2021 15:20:24 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Man. Colossal fail of a post. 

I actually interpreted it the way you intended. 

[billisonboard]

Apr 8, 2021 15:28:13 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

I had to think about  it,  but I  got it. Wasn't  exactly sure  what it had to do with this specific  topic, though. I'm not sure these people are all vanilla once the cat is out of the bag.  Maybe 

 they could certainly still have a lot of fun but not sure with that upbringing they have any chance to actually indulge in neopolitan if they feel a desire.

[tractor]

OK, I’m going to jump in and say that I was raised in a conservative church, still attend the same kind. However, sex is such an important aspect of a good marriage (In my humble opinion), that unless you try it out for awhile before getting married, how will you know you click with each other?

I broke up with a girl in college because our sex life was meh...until I started dating my now wife. The sex is, and always has been great...we’re going on 30 years together.

[Tennesseer]

Apr 8, 2021 14:49:31 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 8, 2021 14:37:38 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Am I supposed to know what this is?

Metaphorical representation of what one can choose to "taste" in regards to human sexual experiences.

Mame Dennis : Oh, Agnes, where is your spine? Here you've been taking my dictation for weeks and you don't get the message of my book. Live, that's the message!

Agnes Gooch : Live?

Mame Dennis : Yes! Life is a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death!

[NoNamePerson]

Apr 8, 2021 16:04:44 GMT -5 bean29 said:

Apr 8, 2021 15:44:21 GMT -5 Cheesy FL-Vol said:

I actually interpreted it the way you intended. 

 Same here! 

[Opti]

Apr 8, 2021 14:49:31 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 8, 2021 14:37:38 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Am I supposed to know what this is?

Metaphorical representation of what one can choose to "taste" in regards to human sexual experiences.

Sad thing is it might not be as good as steak and potatoes. It might be more like cold cereal for dinner. 

[Opti]

Apr 8, 2021 10:37:48 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Very creepy culture. I missed the part in the bible where it said fathers are supposed to be their daughter's boyfriends. I also hate the imbalanced lying of it all. Where's Mom talking about how she's her son's girlfriend and all the non sexual cuddling they do until he finds the one and gets married.

[Deleted]

Apr 8, 2021 16:45:12 GMT -5 tractor said:

OK, I’m going to jump in and say that I was raised in a conservative church, still attend the same kind. However, sex is such an important aspect of a good marriage (In my humble opinion), that unless you try it out for awhile before getting married, how will you know you click with each other?

I broke up with a girl in college because our sex life was meh...until I started dating my now wife. The sex is, and always has been great...we’re going on 30 years together.

That's my feeling, too, although I have no intention of remarrying at this point.  I don't doubt that it's possible for two people to remain celibate thill the wedding night and develop a healthy sexual relationship later- I'm pretty sure DS and DDIL have that and so did my parents (from Mom's occasional discreet references, that part of their lives continued well past childbearing years).  I even think it's kind of sweet that sex is something you've shared only with each other.  I just didn't operate that way.

Current BF told me his ex-wife really considered sex as something necessary for procreation and that she enjoyed it (as in the Big O) "a handful of times" over their 30-year marriage.  I asked how it was before marriage.  He replied drily, "there was no sex before marriage".  Trust me, it wasn't his lack of technique.

And I got the banquet/meat and potatoes reference.  Did the banquet thing in college.  In retrospect, though, the best sexual relationships I've had were long-term ones where you love and trust each other and know each other well.