djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 3, 2020 11:41:31 GMT -5
thanks, bills. i don't really think that recap was necessary, but i appreciate the effort.
so, you think that the claim that the US political center has been moving right for four decades is dubious? just being clear.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 3, 2020 12:23:58 GMT -5
thanks, bills. i don't really think that recap was necessary, but i appreciate the effort. so, you think that the claim that the US political center has been moving right for four decades is dubious? just being clear. You have made that the only support that we are headed to fascism. You have chosen to not support it further which is your right. But by doing so you leave yourself open to it being a weak claim.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 3, 2020 12:37:35 GMT -5
thanks, bills. i don't really think that recap was necessary, but i appreciate the effort. so, you think that the claim that the US political center has been moving right for four decades is dubious? just being clear. You have made that the only support that we are headed to fascism. You have chosen to not support it further which is your right. But by doing so you leave yourself open to it being a weak claim. so, just to be clear- you are not arguing with the claim (that the US political center is moving to the right), but you think that since it is the ONLY claim I am making (about the US moving toward fascism), that it makes for a weak argument?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 3, 2020 12:44:44 GMT -5
You have made that the only support that we are headed to fascism. You have chosen to not support it further which is your right. But by doing so you leave yourself open to it being a weak claim. so, just to be clear- you are not arguing with the claim (that the US political center is moving to the right), but you think that since it is the ONLY claim I am making (about the US moving toward fascism), that it makes for a weak argument?
More exactly: ... it is the ONLY claim support I am making provide (about the US moving toward fascism), that it makes for a weak argument
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 3, 2020 12:52:58 GMT -5
so, just to be clear- you are not arguing with the claim (that the US political center is moving to the right), but you think that since it is the ONLY claim I am making (about the US moving toward fascism), that it makes for a weak argument?
More exactly: ... it is the ONLY claim support I am making provide (about the US moving toward fascism), that it makes for a weak argument ok. so to boil down the counterargument:
the fact that the US political center is moving to the right does not make US fascism more likely?
is that YOUR claim?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 3, 2020 13:21:20 GMT -5
More exactly: ... it is the ONLY claim support I am making provide (about the US moving toward fascism), that it makes for a weak argument ok. so to boil down the counterargument:
the fact that the US political center is moving to the right does not make US fascism more likely?
is that YOUR claim?
No. My claim is that you have provided weak support for your claim.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 3, 2020 13:41:09 GMT -5
ok. so to boil down the counterargument:
the fact that the US political center is moving to the right does not make US fascism more likely?
is that YOUR claim?
No. My claim is that you have provided weak support for your claim. which claim? i made two:
1) that the political center of the US is moving to the right 2) that i can make a case AGAINST us being "nowhere near" a fascist state.
which of these claims do you feel is weak?
i honestly don't get what you are arguing against, bills.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 3, 2020 13:57:46 GMT -5
No. My claim is that you have provided weak support for your claim. which claim? i made two:
1) that the political center of the US is moving to the right 2) that i can make a case AGAINST us being "nowhere near" a fascist state.
which of these claims do you feel is weak?
i honestly don't get what you are arguing against, bills.
I am agreeing with @x that you have presented a weak claim that we are near fascism. I don't know if you "... can make a case ...".
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Oct 3, 2020 13:59:03 GMT -5
The overt militarization of the police
The use of incognito forces to grab protesters off the streets and throwing them into unmarked vans.
A leader that panders to supremacist and militia forces.
A POTUS that reminds the populace that all the armed groups support him.
A leader that pushes a voter fraud conspiracy theory in an attempt to overturn an election he may not win.
The massive monetary support buying politicians of the current dominant party to yield massive tax cuts for the Uber wealthy and eradication of regulations that might effect the profits of their businesses.
The continuation of treating women on a less than equal basis.
The continuation of systemic racism and off the charts incarceration of Black citizens.
Widespread voter suppression techniques damaging to our Democratic process, the latest in Texxass where Abbott is attempting to remove a vast majority of ballot boxes.
Saying “stand back and stand by” to a well armed group of nationalists and their cohort.
Draconian drug laws.
An AG that acts as an arm of the POTUS instead of his proper role and creates ‘anarchist city’ designations.
A POTUS that continually lies to the people and then attacks the press as an “enemy of the people” for reporting the truth.
The advance of Dominionist Evangelical forces seeking a Biblical state.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 3, 2020 14:46:05 GMT -5
which claim? i made two:
1) that the political center of the US is moving to the right 2) that i can make a case AGAINST us being "nowhere near" a fascist state.
which of these claims do you feel is weak?
i honestly don't get what you are arguing against, bills.
I am agreeing with @x that you have presented a weak claim that we are near fascism. I don't know if you "... can make a case ...". I didn't make that claim. what I claimed is that I can make a case AGAINST his statement that we are "nowhere near" fascism.
on the continuum, there is "there", very near, near, some small distance, a fair distance, and nowhere near. you could probably add in a couple more.
i don't think we are "there", very near, or near. i also don't think we are "nowhere near".
i wish people would just ask for clarification rather than jumping to conclusions.
#frustrating
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 3, 2020 14:49:47 GMT -5
The overt militarization of the police The use of incognito forces to grab protesters off the streets and throwing them into unmarked vans. A leader that panders to supremacist and militia forces. A POTUS that reminds the populace that all the armed groups support him. A leader that pushes a voter fraud conspiracy theory in an attempt to overturn an election he may not win. The massive monetary support buying politicians of the current dominant party to yield massive tax cuts for the Uber wealthy and eradication of regulations that might effect the profits of their businesses. The continuation of treating women on a less than equal basis. The continuation of systemic racism and off the charts incarceration of Black citizens. Widespread voter suppression techniques damaging to our Democratic process, the latest in Texxass where Abbott is attempting to remove a vast majority of ballot boxes. Saying “stand back and stand by” to a well armed group of nationalists and their cohort. Draconian drug laws. An AG that acts as an arm of the POTUS instead of his proper role and creates ‘anarchist city’ designations. A POTUS that continually lies to the people and then attacks the press as an “enemy of the people” for reporting the truth. The advance of Dominionist Evangelical forces seeking a Biblical state. there is also the hyper-macho patriotism, the wielding of executive power as an "end around" when his solution can't be arrived at by democratic means, the disruption/diminution of pretty much every federal agency, the anti-PC coarseness with violent overtones, the attack on the press, jingoism, nationalism, flatteringly dealing with authoritarians and authoritarianism, and a failure to equate racism with some or all of the above.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 3, 2020 15:05:58 GMT -5
I am agreeing with @x that you have presented a weak claim that we are near fascism. I don't know if you "... can make a case ...". I didn't make that claim. what I claimed is that I can make a case AGAINST his statement that we are "nowhere near" fascism.
on the continuum, there is "there", very near, near, some small distance, a fair distance, and nowhere near. you could probably add in a couple more.
i don't think we are "there", very near, or near. i also don't think we are "nowhere near".
i wish people would just ask for clarification rather than jumping to conclusions.
#frustrating
okay.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Oct 3, 2020 15:06:41 GMT -5
The overt militarization of the police The use of incognito forces to grab protesters off the streets and throwing them into unmarked vans. A leader that panders to supremacist and militia forces. A POTUS that reminds the populace that all the armed groups support him. A leader that pushes a voter fraud conspiracy theory in an attempt to overturn an election he may not win. The massive monetary support buying politicians of the current dominant party to yield massive tax cuts for the Uber wealthy and eradication of regulations that might effect the profits of their businesses. The continuation of treating women on a less than equal basis. The continuation of systemic racism and off the charts incarceration of Black citizens. Widespread voter suppression techniques damaging to our Democratic process, the latest in Texxass where Abbott is attempting to remove a vast majority of ballot boxes. Saying “stand back and stand by” to a well armed group of nationalists and their cohort. Draconian drug laws. An AG that acts as an arm of the POTUS instead of his proper role and creates ‘anarchist city’ designations. A POTUS that continually lies to the people and then attacks the press as an “enemy of the people” for reporting the truth. The advance of Dominionist Evangelical forces seeking a Biblical state. there is also the hyper-macho patriotism, the wielding of executive power as an "end around" when his solution can't be arrived at by democratic means, the disruption/diminution of pretty much every federal agency, the anti-PC coarseness with violent overtones, the attack on the press, jingoism, nationalism, flatteringly dealing with authoritarians and authoritarianism, and a failure to equate racism with some or all of the above. h Direct orders to ignore subpoenas that quelled damaging testimony about national security issues and possible removal from office.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 3, 2020 15:10:34 GMT -5
there is also the hyper-macho patriotism, the wielding of executive power as an "end around" when his solution can't be arrived at by democratic means, the disruption/diminution of pretty much every federal agency, the anti-PC coarseness with violent overtones, the attack on the press, jingoism, nationalism, flatteringly dealing with authoritarians and authoritarianism, and a failure to equate racism with some or all of the above. h Direct orders to ignore subpoenas that quelled damaging testimony about national security issues and possible removal from office. we can generalize this and say "disruption of the other two branches of government".
those are intended to counterbalance the executive branch. by undermining them, he is "trial baloon-ing" dictatorial powers.
edit: how anyone can think we haven't traveled "some distance" toward fascism at this point is beyond me.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Oct 3, 2020 16:29:46 GMT -5
h Direct orders to ignore subpoenas that quelled damaging testimony about national security issues and possible removal from office. we can generalize this and say "disruption of the other two branches of government".
those are intended to counterbalance the executive branch. by undermining them, he is "trial baloon-ing" dictatorial powers.
edit: how anyone can think we haven't traveled "some distance" toward fascism at this point is beyond me.
Deniers and semanticists abound.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 4, 2020 15:32:38 GMT -5
my claim was that Germans in 1932 didn't see what was coming, and that we don't either. I didn't feel like the remark was very controversial.
they didn't. we don't.
my comment allowed for your outcome: everything will be fine. it also allowed for the possibility that things will not be fine at all. I was merely stating that we should all be paying attention, and not relying on our "feelings" about what has been to dictate what might be.
rather than addressing the point, you came after me. and for some dumb reason, I thought apologizing for any perceived injury might settle things down, then you came after me again, today.
really not getting it, D23.
False dichotomy for one thing. Either/or isn't the only option. .
here we go again. that was not a dichotomy. those are two extreme examples along a continuum.
but since you are denying having that position, let me ask you:
do you NOT think everything is going to be fine? because I am definitely picking up that vibe from you.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 4, 2020 15:36:10 GMT -5
my stand remains the same, your claim of fascism seems weak, which claim? please don't refer to posts, because I have made quite a few claims.
just tell me which claim you are describing as "weak".
if it is the claim described above, I think it has been dispensed with rather well by dondub.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 4, 2020 15:43:44 GMT -5
here we go again. that was not a dichotomy. those are two extreme examples along a continuum.
but since you are denying having that position, let me ask you:
do you NOT think everything is going to be fine? because I am definitely picking up that vibe from you.
No I don't actually. What I don't like seeing is the extreme partisan divide. It prevents finding middle ground on anything. Instead of how can we hash this out, it's more like you suck without holding my exact view. There seems to be no consideration that we all have different ideas on how a result is accomplished. agree. how do you THINK this will get resolved? or do you THINK it is unresolvable?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 4, 2020 15:50:10 GMT -5
I've researched the liberal/conservative judge appointment history for quite some time, long before Trump, and there is one thing I've noticed. Liberal voting judges tend to stay that way vs the conservative ones move to center or slightly left after holding the position for a while. There are some recent articles on this with varying reasons, but nothing conclusive as it's not that type of subject. Wife just popped in and said it's Sunday dinner time, so I will have to get back a little later. ok, but it appears that we are on two different tracks, again.
I was talking about the political divide in this country, not the court.
if you were talking about the court, I agree that "drift" is likely to do it. the Scopes Monkey Trial really happened. it is almost unimaginable that it did, from this perspective. whatever happens in the short term will likely be undone by justices in the future WITHOUT SOMETHING CATASTROPHIC HAPPENING FIRST.
I am far more concerned of the general right drift in the US, and our inability to find the middle again.
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 4, 2020 16:03:38 GMT -5
I've researched the liberal/conservative judge appointment history for quite some time, long before Trump, and there is one thing I've noticed. Liberal voting judges tend to stay that way vs the conservative ones move to center or slightly left after holding the position for a while. There are some recent articles on this with varying reasons, but nothing conclusive as it's not that type of subject. Wife just popped in and said it's Sunday dinner time, so I will have to get back a little later. it seems that the Supreme spend significant time together arguing out issues surrounding the cases. It makes sense to me that intelligent individuals would move away from more conservative positions when presented with reasoned arguments against them.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 4, 2020 17:23:07 GMT -5
Quote; We may also be witnessing a phenomenon that conservatives have railed against for years: the gradual liberalization of justices as they age. In recent years, Justices Harry Blackmun, John Paul Stevens and David Souter, all Republican appointees, moved consistently left with advancing age.The Supreme Court’s disarray since the death of Justice Antonin Scalia in February, with a 4-4 ideological split on many of its key issues, has been widely discussed. Yet the court managed to break free of the muck of dysfunction in hotly contested cases, when Kennedy voted with the liberal justices. The result: The Supreme Court shifted appreciably to the left--even without confirmation of Obama’s nominee, Merrick Garland. www.reuters.com/article/us-supreme-court-commentary-idUSKCN0ZE2LR "... moved consistently left with..." extended exposure to persuasive center/left arguments by other Justices.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 4, 2020 19:42:17 GMT -5
"... moved consistently left with..." extended exposure to persuasive center/left arguments by other Justices. If they lived in a vacuum of courtroom only. I can see where life lessons learned outside of the courtroom add to their enlightenment.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Oct 26, 2020 21:26:27 GMT -5
I am beyond disgusted with the Republicans that rammed this through, and even more so that Barrett has already been sworn in. if 11/3 doesn't prove to be a sweeping message that this is not what the majority of this country wants, I'm with dj, I'm out. I joked about exercising my options as a dual citizen in years past, but fuck. I can't anymore. I have a zoom interview on Friday, too, local place.
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flan327
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Post by flan327 on Oct 27, 2020 7:55:42 GMT -5
Nobody listened to RBG's sage advice
Pity...
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Post by oped on Oct 27, 2020 8:42:26 GMT -5
We will fight as long as there is fighting because too many will lack the resources to flee. But we won’t live under a theocratic minority rule. We’ll move states or activate dual citizenship.
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 27, 2020 9:37:52 GMT -5
Quote; Senator Marsha Blackburn (R-TN) recently wrote a book, The Mind of a Conservative Woman. She told American Thinker, “Too many liberals, everyone is merely an economic unit, and every principle is one size fits all. In one of my chapters, I discuss how mainstream media has misrepresented conservative women. They, as with all women, are smart, focused, and want the best for everyone. Yet the press says conservative women's voices do not deserve to be heard because they are pro-life, pro-military, pro-business, and pro-faith."
She went on to say, “Conservative women are treated very differently than liberal women. They do not want them to have a voice, unless they espouse the liberal talking points.” The senator made this clear during the Judiciary hearings, “They attack you (Judge Barrett) for not fitting into the paradigm of the left, because you’re pro-life, pro-family, and pro-religion,” and “It is so discouraging to me to see groups on the left say we want diversity, but let that diversity come from a woman who is on the political right, and their heads explode.” www.americanthinker.com/articles/2020/10/the_vilification_of_conservative_women.htmlI'm pretty sure liberals attacked all overly religious, anti-choice, anti-gay candidates - regardless of their genitals.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Nov 23, 2020 15:29:16 GMT -5
yeah, 33 is pretty young to be a federal judge. She woldn't even be qualified to be a judge in NYS, you need 10 years experience.
She just needed a few more years to cook.
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Post by jerseygirl on Nov 23, 2020 16:14:06 GMT -5
Elena Kagan was never a judge before SCOTUS Along with Earl Warren , Rehnquist and others
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