sil
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Post by sil on Apr 13, 2011 11:30:36 GMT -5
I got my MBA from a good program when I was 24, and was a bit shocked that no one wanted to hire a 24 year old (who looked more like an 18 year old) who's only real business experience was a 3-month internship for an MBA-level job/salary So I was pretty resentful of my $55k in loans when I was only making $40k - $50k in salary in a HCOLA during my first few years. I graduated just before the tech bubble burst, so I had a couple of layoffs and I had to re-locate once in order to keep a job. But due in part to the varied experience I got during my job-hopping days, and in part to that ridiculously expensive piece of paper, my salary has gone up 2.5x's in the last 12 years. It took a lot of time and tough experiences to realize this, but the degree has proven to be very much worthwhile. Best part is, I still have another 20-30 working years to benefit from the degree. I suspect that many recent graduates who are complaining about their student loan debts now, will come to a similar conclusion once they have 10+ years of useful experience in their field. Of course, if a recent graduate took $100k in loans for a masters degree in sociology, they probably won't have the same experience.
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michelyn8
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Post by michelyn8 on Apr 13, 2011 11:51:33 GMT -5
Oh and another thing I forgot about people mentioning taking community college classes, that won't always get you very far. Not all colleges take transfer credits from community college. I had enough AP/community college classes to get an associates degree (and my husband had spent 2 years taking classes at his local state college while in high school) and nothing transfered at all. Initially I was a little pissed, but then when I got to my school and actually took the classes there, I realized the classes were so far beyond what we had covered in community college that I shouldn't have been able to get any credit for those classes. So if your college accepts transfer credits, that's great, but not all colleges do and you can't always save yourself time/money by taking classes at a community college. Nothing personal msgumby, but I find anecdotes of this kind indicate a lack of planning and understanding on the student's part more than being a problem with the community college system. If the student takes the time to read the information provided by the school and ask questions they will know before going in which classes can and will transfer. Also, while I understand that at times you may not know in year one if you will want to transfer or where, it is still not the fault of the either college system if you take a class that doesn't. It is up to the student to take the initiative, they can't just wait for someone to tell them. As for quality of education in a CC, that is really subjective. You can have poor teachers in any educational environment and at times, it may just be an issue of a conflict between the student's learning style and the professor's teaching style (ie: my college algebra profressor who was head of the math department taught by "telling" you how to do the work but I am the kind that learns better when I can see someone actually DO the steps).
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 13, 2011 11:57:14 GMT -5
Also, the quality of CCs has changed a lot. I graduated when they were juuuuuust becoming popular, and they were looked down on by a lot of people (myself included) mostly because they were... pretty much crap, to be honest. You wanted a serious education, that wasn't the route you took.
But now? Things are different. Some of the better community colleges have really shaped up and responded to the demand for lower-cost general ed classes and tightened their transfer requirements and so forth. Even some four-year professors have started donating their time to community college classes, just so the quality will rise. It's going to keep happening - by the time I have college-age kids myself, it will probably be quite normal to go to CC first.
My best friend did very well going to community college her first two years. She had a plan and it happened. She transferred to a great state school only a little behind schedule, and graduated by the time she was 23. She's starting grad school in a few months ;D I'm very proud of her.
And hey, she's doing it without loans too!
But yeah, if you go the CC route it takes extra organization and planning to make sure your credits will transfer to the school you want - and knowing what it takes to get in there as a transfer student.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Apr 13, 2011 12:02:44 GMT -5
Oh and another thing I forgot about people mentioning taking community college classes, that won't always get you very far. Not all colleges take transfer credits from community college. I had enough AP/community college classes to get an associates degree (and my husband had spent 2 years taking classes at his local state college while in high school) and nothing transfered at all. Initially I was a little pissed, but then when I got to my school and actually took the classes there, I realized the classes were so far beyond what we had covered in community college that I shouldn't have been able to get any credit for those classes. So if your college accepts transfer credits, that's great, but not all colleges do and you can't always save yourself time/money by taking classes at a community college. Nothing personal msgumby, but I find anecdotes of this kind indicate a lack of planning and understanding on the student's part more than being a problem with the community college system. If the student takes the time to read the information provided by the school and ask questions they will know before going in which classes can and will transfer. Also, while I understand that at times you may not know in year one if you will want to transfer or where, it is still not the fault of the either college system if you take a class that doesn't. It is up to the student to take the initiative, they can't just wait for someone to tell them. As for quality of education in a CC, that is really subjective. You can have poor teachers in any educational environment and at times, it may just be an issue of a conflict between the student's learning style and the professor's teaching style (ie: my college algebra profressor who was head of the math department taught by "telling" you how to do the work but I am the kind that learns better when I can see someone actually DO the steps). Right, but people always say "take 2 years at a cc to save money, then transfer." If you are transferring to most state schools and some private schools, sure... If you get the opportunity to transfer to (for the sake of argument) Harvard, you wasted those two years because they will take zero of your credits. Is the degree from Harvard worth giving up two years of credits that will transfer easily and help you with your degree at Northern Southern Eastern State University ? Maybe, maybe not. But the point that 2 years at a cc will not always help solve your problems is valid.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2011 12:13:18 GMT -5
Nothing personal msgumby, but I find anecdotes of this kind indicate a lack of planning and understanding on the student's part more than being a problem with the community college system. If the student takes the time to read the information provided by the school and ask questions they will know before going in which classes can and will transfer. Also, while I understand that at times you may not know in year one if you will want to transfer or where, it is still not the fault of the either college system if you take a class that doesn't. It is up to the student to take the initiative, they can't just wait for someone to tell them. As for quality of education in a CC, that is really subjective. You can have poor teachers in any educational environment and at times, it may just be an issue of a conflict between the student's learning style and the professor's teaching style (ie: my college algebra profressor who was head of the math department taught by "telling" you how to do the work but I am the kind that learns better when I can see someone actually DO the steps). Right, but people always say "take 2 years at a cc to save money, then transfer." If you are transferring to most state schools and some private schools, sure... If you get the opportunity to transfer to (for the sake of argument) Harvard, you wasted those two years because they will take zero of your credits. Is the degree from Harvard worth giving up two years of credits that will transfer easily and help you with your degree at Northern Southern Eastern State University ? Maybe, maybe not. But the point that 2 years at a cc will not always help solve your problems is valid. I did preplain and only took classes my 4 year university would take, however, because my degree was "top heavy" aka required a lot of upper division classwork, I ended up needing to take 2.5 years at university plus two summer sessions to graduate and because of the extra "transfer requirement" that were not required for the four year students I needed three years at CC. If I had just gone straight through I would have been done in 4 years vs 5.5 years.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 13, 2011 12:43:08 GMT -5
Right, but people always say "take 2 years at a cc to save money, then transfer." If you are transferring to most state schools and some private schools, sure... If you get the opportunity to transfer to (for the sake of argument) Harvard, you wasted those two years because they will take zero of your credits. Is the degree from Harvard worth giving up two years of credits that will transfer easily and help you with your degree at Northern Southern Eastern State University ? Maybe, maybe not. But the point that 2 years at a cc will not always help solve your problems is valid.
I may be generalizing, but if you have the academic merit to get into Harvard I can't imagine that you'd waste your time at a community college for any reason. If cost is an issue, you can apply for scholarships or start out at a state school and maybe transfer to Harvard later. Harvard-caliber students have NO PROBLEM getting some kind of scholarship somewhere. They have no need to go to a community college for monetary reasons.
I know this because I was nowhere near Harvard-caliber and I got a sizable scholarship without even really trying.
I would be *very* surprised if the above scenario had ever actually happened to anyone.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 13, 2011 12:48:37 GMT -5
I did preplain and only took classes my 4 year university would take, however, because my degree was "top heavy" aka required a lot of upper division classwork, I ended up needing to take 2.5 years at university plus two summer sessions to graduate and because of the extra "transfer requirement" that were not required for the four year students I needed three years at CC. If I had just gone straight through I would have been done in 4 years vs 5.5 years.
This touches on something else that I think we're going to see a lot in the coming years. I found out firsthand that finishing college quickly is pricey. You pay a premium to do so. It is WAY cheaper to go part-time and work full-time or, if you're attending an out-of-state school, live / work there for a year to save money and establish residency. But it takes longer.
So as a cost-cutting measure I think we're going to start seeing a lot more 23-26 year old graduates. They might end up outnumbering the more "standard" 22 year old college graduates.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Apr 13, 2011 12:59:07 GMT -5
From what I've seen in the CC college system, there are some that work really hard to have respected programs and transferable credits and some that don't. The ones that don't usually have NO disclosure that the English 101 you are taking will not be accepted by the big in-state schools. The faculty who are aware of this, usually tell their students, but not all of the facutly care this much.
So as a cost-cutting measure I think we're going to start seeing a lot more 23-26 year old graduates. They might end up outnumbering the more "standard" 22 year old college graduates
hehe, I graduated at barely 21 and had several classmates in early 30s... we were an interesting mix
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 13, 2011 13:13:16 GMT -5
hehe, I graduated at barely 21 and had several classmates in early 30s... we were an interesting mix
See, I graduated a couple of months before I turned 24 and I was definitely the oldest student in most of my classes.
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strider
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Post by strider on Apr 13, 2011 13:19:37 GMT -5
I feel so lucky to have Federal Loans. Those will rapidly disappear soon as well. Such a shame too. They're nice to have. Down to $6000 from $10,000 a year ago.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Apr 13, 2011 13:20:21 GMT -5
Let's see about ~10% of us were GI bill students, no one over 35 though.... In my program if you didn't pass C-Wall in one class, you were off track by one year period, sometimes two...ALL classes were c-walled, none of that dropping the requirement at the junior level like other programs... So i'd guess the median graduating age for my class/major was close to you at 24-25....
Edit: changed average to median to be more accurate... average was probably more like 27
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 13, 2011 13:20:32 GMT -5
What's your interest rate on those again, strider?
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strider
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Post by strider on Apr 13, 2011 13:21:44 GMT -5
I finished college in 3.5 years because I saved myself $5000 in living expenses and $4000 in tuition. Anything over 15 credit hours counted as free. Definitely a smart move for me.
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strider
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Post by strider on Apr 13, 2011 13:22:44 GMT -5
2 are at 6% ($3000 each) 1 is 5.6%(1000)
Ok so 7,000 from my earlier post. Typo. But it's winding down more.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 13, 2011 13:27:34 GMT -5
Your interest rates are lower than mine. Lucky.
I finished college in 3.5 years because I saved myself $5000 in living expenses and $4000 in tuition. Anything over 15 credit hours counted as free. Definitely a smart move for me.
If I had discovered summer classes my freshman year, I would've graduated outright in those miserable first two years in college instead of dropping out. Talk about efficiency - half the cost in less than half the time for full-unit courses, PLUS I got a lot more out of them because I HAD to keep up. When the class moved that fast, there was no room for slacking.
I spent the rest of the year wishing that my entire college career could have been conducted on a summer-course schedule. Would've saved me thousands of dollars and years of time, AND I would have gotten much more out of my education than I did. Ouch.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Apr 13, 2011 13:32:12 GMT -5
.... Taking summer classes would've voided my scholarship... so I spent one taking care of my critically ill mother (who got well and is happy and healthy) and the others interning to gain practical experience (and a little $$)
ETA: IMO the internships did more for my ability to land a job and gave me more freedom than if i'd graduated earlier by taking summer classes and had lower debt.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 13, 2011 13:33:41 GMT -5
Carolina, I'm so glad your mom is doing better now *hugs*
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Apr 13, 2011 13:34:15 GMT -5
Thanks Firebird. I hope to have her around for a LONG LONG time.
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strider
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Post by strider on Apr 13, 2011 13:40:16 GMT -5
I actually took a head start class in high school and those transferred direcly over. This was just before the economy went bad and there was money in the state's coffers. I truly did get a leg up there and I got money through grants and scholarships.
I just shake my head when politicians don't believe that people use this aid to improve themselves and they consider it "welfare". I wouldn't have this job if I didn't graduate early thanks to the aid I received. Now I'm putting money into the economy that I wouldn't have otherwise. Higher wages mean higher spending. It's quoted that my college pumps $3 into the economy for every dollar it receives thanks to high placement rate and cheap cost of living. Why are we not investing (smartly) into higher ed again? 3x the return sounds like a good deal to me.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 13, 2011 13:46:04 GMT -5
This whole post is a good case in point for what I'm trying to say. If you don't want a degree, fine, but make sure you have skills that are rare and marketable in any economy to compensate. Then you're good. Security clearances, in particular, are difficult to come by and will almost always weigh more than a degree in certain fields. Exactly. It's not about going to college or not, it's about finding a way to build a skill set that's valued by employers. If you can find a way to do that without college, than college really and truly does become optional. If you can't, then college can be a good way to build your skill set. Can though, not is. It's just as easy to essentially waste four years and a lot of money learning a lot of stuff that you find interesting and the business world finds useless. Whether you go to school or not, you have to focus on learning valuable information, not just on learning random information.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 13, 2011 13:52:08 GMT -5
not just on learning random informationSo you mean my embarassing retention of Star Wars trivia isn't going to land me a job? Crap.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 13, 2011 13:52:16 GMT -5
Exactly. It's not about going to college or not, it's about finding a way to build a skill set that's valued by employers. If you can find a way to do that without college, than college really and truly does become optional. If you can't, then college can be a good way to build your skill set. Can though, not is. It's just as easy to essentially waste four years and a lot of money learning a lot of stuff that you find interesting and the business world finds useless. Whether you go to school or not, you have to focus on learning valuable information, not just on learning random information.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
If we could just drill this one little paragraph into the heads of high school graduates, everything would get better. Everything.
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strider
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Post by strider on Apr 13, 2011 13:58:18 GMT -5
Exactly. It's not about going to college or not, it's about finding a way to build a skill set that's valued by employers. If you can find a way to do that without college, than college really and truly does become optional. If you can't, then college can be a good way to build your skill set. Can though, not is. It's just as easy to essentially waste four years and a lot of money learning a lot of stuff that you find interesting and the business world finds useless. Whether you go to school or not, you have to focus on learning valuable information, not just on learning random information. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. If we could just drill this one little paragraph into the heads of high school graduates, everything would get better. Everything. No argument here. I just hope that employers in the future recognize this as well. I know so many people that don't have degrees and their resumes get tossed in the trash. A relevant degree or training is definitely needed anymore.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 13, 2011 14:00:07 GMT -5
So you mean my embarassing retention of Star Wars trivia isn't going to land me a job? Crap. You never know, one of Loop's friends just finished his masters thesis on Battlestar Galactica. His degree is in postcolonialism in modern American literature... or something like that. Maybe there's some company out there salivating at the thought of hiring a guy who's spent the last six years analyzing the crap out of a sci fi TV show. Something tells me probably not though. He's been a TA the whole time he was working on his masters, and I think wants to finish his PhD and become a professor, so it might work out for him. If he didn't want to work in academia however, his degree wouldn't exactly be opening doors left and right.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 13, 2011 14:04:09 GMT -5
Battlestar Galactica, really?
I picked the wrong profession, I actually have to do WORK to get my master's. Grr. ..
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 13, 2011 14:09:30 GMT -5
Battlestar Galactica, really? It's apparently one of the best examples of postcolonialist memes in modern pop culture... or something like that. I was never than interested so I didn't pay much attention, but I guess I could read his thesis and see what he had to say.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 13, 2011 14:12:17 GMT -5
It's apparently one of the best examples of postcolonialist memes in modern pop culture... or something like thatIsn't that code for: I made up some legitmate sounding BS so I could have a reason to watch BG all day?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 13, 2011 14:14:09 GMT -5
Just because you weren't smart enough to get a legitimate institution to give a degree for watching TV shows doesn't mean you have to hate on the guy who was.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 13, 2011 14:15:08 GMT -5
Just because you weren't smart enough to get a legitimate institution to give a degree for watching TV shows doesn't mean you have to hate on the guy who was::hangs head in shame::
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2011 14:39:01 GMT -5
I actually took a head start class in high school and those transferred direcly over. This was just before the economy went bad and there was money in the state's coffers. I truly did get a leg up there and I got money through grants and scholarships. I just shake my head when politicians don't believe that people use this aid to improve themselves and they consider it "welfare". I wouldn't have this job if I didn't graduate early thanks to the aid I received. Now I'm putting money into the economy that I wouldn't have otherwise. Higher wages mean higher spending. It's quoted that my college pumps $3 into the economy for every dollar it receives thanks to high placement rate and cheap cost of living. Why are we not investing (smartly) into higher ed again? 3x the return sounds like a good deal to me. I'm with you on that strider!!
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