thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 12, 2011 16:46:21 GMT -5
Those were great limits 8 years ago. Now they won't even cover tuition.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 12, 2011 16:49:47 GMT -5
It is [optional]. I truly believe there are kids who don't really need to go to a traditional College/University to get a degree to be productive in life. I think sometimes the 'pressure' that they've got to have a 4 year degree to be successful (or to get a job) causes more difficulties for some kids than it ought to.
I have two cousins that are good examples of this. Neither ever had much ambition in school, and both live in small towns where there's not a lot going on anyway. I'm a firm believer that they both need to get the hell out of those towns, and quickly, but not through college. They wouldn't like it and I personally don't think they'd get anything out of it (assuming they could even get in).
They are both really, really hardworking kids when the motivation strikes. They're smart and savvy and mind you, both of them need to pick a direction and FOCUS, but once they do that they'll be okay. Better than okay, maybe. College would most likely be a waste of time and money and very little else.
I'm trying to teach them good financial management, because in some ways I rather think that's worth MORE than a college degree.
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Post by tea4me on Apr 12, 2011 16:50:35 GMT -5
tea4me - not everyone can work while going to college. My college was designed to be a few full time jobs already - so you couldn't feasibly work while attending classes (unless you wanted to have your degree take 8 years). It was set up so that classes would be 10-20 hours/week, labs could be another 10 hours/week, and homework would easily take 60-80 hours/week. Most classes were at least 20 hour/week time committment and there were a handful of classes that (on their own) require 50+ hours/week of work, so it really would be impossible to take more than 1-2 classes at a time while working. We all worked through evenings and weekends doing homework, and tried our best to manage to have some fun on a friday night or a saturday afternoon. You could have worked if you had taken a 50% class load, but you had to petition each quarter you wanted to take a reduced course load and it wasn't really set up to be done that way - it would take you a really long time to get your degree. Also, generally jobs aren't flexible to allow you to arrange for time to attend classes, lab sections, homework sections, and group meetings whenever those end up being scheduled and changing on a 3-4 month basis. While some may be able to work in college, not everyone can. I'm very grateful that my parents realized that I could not feasibly complete my coursework while working during the school year and helped me out. I'm also grateful that the school had financial aid so that my husband didn't have to work or end up with tons of student loans. Well, it did take me several years to get my degree. I had no choice but to work. Not only did I need the wages to cover my living expenses, I also felt the need to have benefits (insurance). A girl's gotta do what a girl's gotta do.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2011 16:56:19 GMT -5
What do you think of employers that toss resumes that don't have a degree? I think college should be optional too but some companies look at it like what a HS diploma used to be.
DH worked for 10 years and then was passed over for a promotion twice because of his lack of a degree. He went back to school at 28 which is not easy for a lot of folks.
I think the problem is that college is easiest to go to when you are 18 but you don't necessarily know what your career will be or what you are good at at that point.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 12, 2011 16:58:37 GMT -5
Well, it did take me several years to get my degree. I had no choice but to work. Not only did I need the wages to cover my living expenses, I also felt the need to have benefits (insurance).
Your school didn't provide that? I miss my cheap school insurance. It was something stupid like $500 per semester for full coverage.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Apr 12, 2011 17:00:01 GMT -5
Thyme: I agree, but I stand by my advice to my cousins - if you can't afford the school with a financial aid package that only includes federal loans (stafford and perkins) - then you can't afford it. I also think a lot of people who aren't currently involved in the process think that all student loans are the federal loans. They don't realize that the crushing levels of debt include going out and getting unsecured private loans that are based on theorhetical future earnings, and that the banks just call them student loans. Federal student loans are very flexible and come with a lot of protections for the student as well as the school, and I honestly categorize them as "good" debt. But the private loans have none of the borrower protections and are what can get students in real trouble.
Note: I say this despite the fact that I still owe more than I borrowed in undergrad SLs. I borrowed $16k for undergraduate education. I will not owe less than $16k on those loans until this October, 11.5 years AFTER I graduated, because I took advantage (more than I should have) of the flexibility of the loans.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 12, 2011 17:01:41 GMT -5
I guess it depends on what they are hiring for. I mean - yes, they have every right to not hire a CFO unless that person has the proper, expected education. Your husband was in a field and company where they felt the degree was advantagous. But, just because your husband's field demanded a degree doesn't mean that every single high school graduate needs to drive over to the U and sign up.
Now, if a company is trying to hire a janitor, and they require a college degree, then they are stupid and the labor market will punish them accordingly.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 12, 2011 17:05:56 GMT -5
What really amazes me is how many people think college is optional. My daughter borrowed $17,000 a year for 4 years to attend pharmacy school. It was worth it. She started at almost twice what her teacher mom was earning. I don't have a degree, and have no plans to go back and get one. I've been out earning my mom, who was an elementary school teacher, since I was 19 and first enlisted in the military. I'm now making six figures, and started at $60k in the private sector. Partly it just goes to show that outside of a few area teachers don't make squat, and partly it's due to really not needing a degree to work in certain fields. You have to find some other way to get your foot in the door, but if you can manage that it's your performance and experience that really matter, not your past school records. The important thing to keep in mind from your example is that the school teacher had to go get a degree too. It's not a slam dunk example for going to college, if anything it's a good example of why choosing your major wisely is so important.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 12, 2011 17:10:41 GMT -5
What do you think of employers that toss resumes that don't have a degree? I think college should be optional too but some companies look at it like what a HS diploma used to be.
Some, yes. Not all.
And it is my naive hope belief that we'll start to see a shift in this, once employers begin to realize that college isn't a guarantee of much anymore.
It's an interesting paradox - on the whole, I think run-of-the-mill college education has diminished in value, yet it has become more highly valued in the marketplace. Whether that's a lowering of the general standard of what constitutes an educated person or... some other reason, I don't know.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2011 17:13:14 GMT -5
DH's boss was looking at resumes for a systems administrator - a position under DH. They received over 800 resumes. His boss sorted them into degree and non-degree piles and then tossed out all the non-degree applicants without even looking at them. For the position DH wanted he truly needed a degree and I'm glad he went back to school.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 12, 2011 17:15:49 GMT -5
I guess it depends on what they are hiring for. I mean - yes, they have every right to not hire a CFO unless that person has the proper, expected education. Your husband was in a field and company where they felt the degree was advantagous. But, just because your husband's field demanded a degree doesn't mean that every single high school graduate needs to drive over to the U and sign up.
Just to be clear, I don't think it's arbitrary and stupid for a college degree to be required for everything. There are some fields where it doesn't make sense / would be criminally negligent to hire someone who doesn't have the necessary education foundation (nursing springs immediately to mind).
But then you have people like Dark, who have advanced quite far in their career without a degree because certain people have the brains and foresight to recognize people who are intelligent and skilled in their own right, and don't need a piece of paper to prove it.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 12, 2011 17:18:40 GMT -5
I'm not saying it's all sunshine and roses, but not having a degree isn't a life long poverty sentence either. According to the HR dorks my position requires a master's degree. I've been in it for a couple years now without a degree of any kind, and so far no lightning bolt has come flying out of the sky to burn me to a crisp for having the audacity to take a job away from a college grad.
College is a stepping stone. It's a way to get a career started. It's not the be all and end all. Once you can put 5-10+ years of real experience on a resume I really don't think there are that many HR folks that will care that much whether you have a degree or not. In certain fields of course. Other fields you need the piece of paper to get certified and whatnot, which is different obviously.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 12, 2011 17:18:09 GMT -5
For the position DH wanted he truly needed a degree and I'm glad he went back to school.
I get where you're coming from, Anne. I've been on both sides of the fence too - I was doing fine as a two-year college dropout, but the second I graduated I was making 25% more in a similar COLA. Arbitrary and silly? Perhaps. But I'll never know how much of that pay upgrade was due to my shiny new degree and how much of it was due to the experience I gained while I wasn't getting that shiny new degree.
I'm inclined to say that the latter carried a LOT more weight.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 12, 2011 17:19:42 GMT -5
There is a reality that college is hard. Even if it was easy for you, it was still a bunch of things you had to do - sign up, take the class, take the test, write the paper, etc. etc. One way to find out if a person can set a goal and follow through on it is to see if they have a college degree. Even the lamest paper-mill degrees have a degree of commitment. If quality of the education is also important, a hiring manager will then look at where each individual got their degree and start with acceptable colleges. That is one reason why smaller schools are risky. You may have gotten a top notch education, but if no one has heard of the college, they may be suspicous and go with the people from the schools they are familiar with.
My husband says that is one reason good sports programs are beneficial to Universities - name recognition. Being out here in the wild, wild west, maybe I would have only vaguely heard of Duke. But, being a lover of March Madness - I really think I know what Duke is about. I would have never in a million years heard of Gonzaga, but now if the resume came across my desk I wouldn't assume it was a made up college or a for-profit diploma mill.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 12, 2011 17:21:34 GMT -5
Once you can put 5-10+ years of real experience on a resume I really don't think there are that many HR folks that will care that much whether you have a degree or not. In certain fields of course. Other fields you need the piece of paper to get certified and whatnot, which is different obviously.
Project management is a good example of a field where you need the experience just to get the certification. You can use college as a stepping-stone to get the first-tier certification (I did), but you won't get a bit further without real-life experience managing projects.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 12, 2011 17:22:16 GMT -5
Once you can put 5-10+ years of real experience on a resume I really don't think there are that many HR folks that will care that much whether you have a degree or not. In certain fields of course. Other fields you need the piece of paper to get certified and whatnot, which is different obviously.
Project management is a good example of a field where you need the experience just to get the certification. You can use college as a stepping-stone to get the first-tier certification (I did), but you won't get a bit further without real-life experience managing projects.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 12, 2011 17:23:38 GMT -5
Sorry about the double post. That point wasn't actually so important to me that I felt the need to make it twice in a row, it just happened.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2011 17:25:25 GMT -5
To be productive, no. To earn the kind of money that will allow them to save the multi-millions that they will now need to retire, I have a different perspective. I was brought up "when you go to college." So were my kids and now my grandkids. And, yes, mine was paid for. My kids' educations were paid for until my daughter went to pharmacy school.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 12, 2011 17:27:56 GMT -5
There is a reality that college is hard. Even if it was easy for you, it was still a bunch of things you had to do - sign up, take the class, take the test, write the paper, etc. etc. One way to find out if a person can set a goal and follow through on it is to see if they have a college degree. Even the lamest paper-mill degrees have a degree of commitment.
Nothing personal, but I've never found this argument to be convincing. Yes, you have to jump through a lot of hoops in order to go to college and you have to be somewhat organized and focused (in order to do well), but the ability to jump through hoops a) isn't all that impressive on its own and b) is something you can learn perfectly well by spending a few years getting real work experience.
Personally, I care much more if someone can write and speak adequately well. They don't teach that in college - well, they try, but it's possible and even common to graduate still not knowing how to do either one with any degree of competence. I spent a good chunk of my last semester peer-editing and by the end of it I was so sick of correcting the difference between "their" and "there" that I was ready to blow my head off.
People should not be allowed to graduate from college without knowing that shit. But they are. It is not impressive.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 12, 2011 17:31:16 GMT -5
I would have never in a million years heard of Gonzaga, but now if the resume came across my desk I wouldn't assume it was a made up college or a for-profit diploma mill.
This one I'll grant you. It's hilarious how everyone thinks their alma mater is the greatest school in the entire world. I went to a small but highly respected (if you happen to have heard of it) state school, and if someone HAS heard of it, they're usually impressed. If not, they're like, "Wait, I don't get it, there are only supposed to be two state schools in this state..."
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 13, 2011 8:15:06 GMT -5
I guess I'm kind of a hard-ass in the sense that I'm not in favor of anything resembling "18 year olds are stupid, so let's cater to that
I am too to an extent, I am way too skeptical for my own good. The words "discharged upon DEATH" was pretty clear cut for me and I took that seriously before signing the dotted line.
I had also known what I wanted to be since I was a child and by the time I actually got to high school I was way ahead of everyone in terms of being aware of what the area paid for my field and how to go about getting the degree.
Over the years though I've learned that not every 18 year old is that prepared and to cut some people some slack.
I still think you are a moron if you get yourself into six digit figure debt unless you are going onto professional school like medical.
But at the same time private loans were coming into their own when I was in HS and they make it WAAAAAAAAAAY too easy to get "free money".
The federal guidelines are pretty strict and getting tighter as more people default.
I do not think you should get rid of private student loans, but personally I feel if they are going to be non-dischargable then they should have to operate under the same rules as federal.
Otherwise they should be like any other private loan and they take the risk of me declaring bankruptcy.
When used right I think private loans are fine, I just disagree with them having the best of both worlds.
I'd go take out a loan with my actual bank before I'd go near a lot of private lenders.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Apr 13, 2011 8:51:48 GMT -5
DD1 is currently in her 3rd year of college, and DS2 is going in the Fall. He *finally* got his last FA offer, from the college he was most interested in. Was, because the offer was much worse than that of the other colleges he applied to.
With a sibling in college, and an EFC = 0, they still gapped him $6k, after including $9k in loans ($3500 sub, $2000 unsub, and $3500 Perkins).
Compare that to DD1's freshman year offer: $3500 sub loans only, and no gap after WS.
Since the fed minimums for loans increase each year in college, and FA tends to be less generous each year (captive audience), his loan totals will only get worse as he heads to graduation.
Federal and other aid is disappearing. I couldn't understand why DS2 didn't receive an ACG from any of the colleges, when he obviously is qualified. Some google searching revealed that the program has been allowed to die for lack of funding. There was also mention of Pell being cut, and TAP won't be far behind given the state of NY's budget woes. If colleges can't come up with grants to fill the gap, students may have to take loans they never expected to need (in later years of college).
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Apr 13, 2011 8:56:01 GMT -5
I don't have a degree, and have no plans to go back and get one. I've been out earning my mom, who was an elementary school teacher, since I was 19 and first enlisted in the military. I'm now making six figures, and started at $60k in the private sector.
I worked my way up from Office Manager and Administrative Assistant jobs to Administrator and Analyst positions without a college degree and I was out-earning my mom who has a Phd in Psychology by the time I was 10 years into my career. I don't think college is right for everyone, but I think it's a lot harder to get a foot in the door and work your way up now than it was 10 or 20 years ago. It's possible, but harder. My step-son FINALLY found a full-time IT job with a major company without a college degree. He has military experience and practical work experience, but it took him over 2 years to land this job.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Apr 13, 2011 9:52:02 GMT -5
My brother is like Dark, in that he will never need a degree. He joined the military and received specialized training. He is now a civilian but works for military contractors doing the same things he did in the military. He's highly paid for this work because there are fewer than a thousand people in the entire world who have the skill set and background clearances needed to do what he does. My brother will probably go back and complete his archeology degree at some point, but its not relative to the work he does at all.
At the same time, DH does not have a degree and NEEDS one. I know it seems like once you have 5-10 years experience in a field, it shouldn't matter, but in the current job market it does. In our area, they are requiring BAs for 29k/yr admin jobs, or at least saying they prefer them. In 2 years of applying, DH has had 2 interviews. I will say that some of this might be that the companies figure they can get away with paying a new college grad less (or shafting them in some other way) than they can someone with years of experience.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 13, 2011 10:07:38 GMT -5
I know it seems like once you have 5-10 years experience in a field, it shouldn't matter, but in the current job market it does
No kidding. I've always known if I wanted to stay in academia that eventually I'd need my master's to hop up the ladder, but I've also been keeping an eye on the private market and now they too want AT LEAST a master's.
WITH my current job experience. That's been within the last year or so. Before that job listings wanted a bachelors with my level of experience OR a master's.
Now they want both. I am very very lucky that I can get my master's degree 100% free as long as I work at least 32 hours.
It'll take me longer than a traditional student, but now I'll have the piece of paper to back up my experience.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 13, 2011 10:15:45 GMT -5
My brother is like Dark, in that he will never need a degree. He joined the military and received specialized training. He is now a civilian but works for military contractors doing the same things he did in the military. He's highly paid for this work because there are fewer than a thousand people in the entire world who have the skill set and background clearances needed to do what he does. My brother will probably go back and complete his archeology degree at some point, but its not relative to the work he does at all. At the same time, DH does not have a degree and NEEDS one. I know it seems like once you have 5-10 years experience in a field, it shouldn't matter, but in the current job market it does. In our area, they are requiring BAs for 29k/yr admin jobs, or at least saying they prefer them. In 2 years of applying, DH has had 2 interviews. I will say that some of this might be that the companies figure they can get away with paying a new college grad less (or shafting them in some other way) than they can someone with years of experience. This whole post is a good case in point for what I'm trying to say. If you don't want a degree, fine, but make sure you have skills that are rare and marketable in any economy to compensate. Then you're good. Security clearances, in particular, are difficult to come by and will almost always weigh more than a degree in certain fields. I think it's silly to expect a college degree for a $29k job. Any $29k job. Education is worth more than THAT, I hope.
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lynnerself
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Post by lynnerself on Apr 13, 2011 10:36:14 GMT -5
My DD has a $29000 a year job with a college degree and there were 85 applicants for it! It is as a research assistant at a major health science university. After working and talking to the post docs, she may be reconsidering her plan to work in research and academia. Back on topic, at least she has no student loans. We paid for what she didn't have in scholarships.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 13, 2011 10:50:45 GMT -5
I completely agree with DQ's post. There is no reason private loans should be nondischargeable yet not subject to any of the limits/scrutiny given to similar federal loans.
And while I'm not saying that we should "dumb things down", I also hesitate to hold all college students to the standard of my own 18-22yo self. I didn't take out SLs - but I did make some decisions (like forgoing health insurance for almost 3 years) that could have ended very badly and put me into a similar spot. I'm not going to judge others, because I know my hard work was tempered with a great deal of luck.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 13, 2011 11:06:04 GMT -5
I believe making the loans non-dischargable was in response to journalists exposing people who racked up hundreds of thousands in student loans, declared bankruptcy the day before they started their medical or legal career, and now were making hundreds of thousands of dollars per year - free from the burden on paying for their education.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 13, 2011 11:09:39 GMT -5
I get why the loans are non-dischargable. I did think that same thing that people would just declare BK five minutes after they graduate.
I just disagree with they then can run themselves like loans that are dischargable.
I understand that they are free to run their companies however they want to and as the law allows, I just personally think it's ridiculous that they get the best of both worlds.
Which is why I stayed away from them. I would never have taken out a huge loan even if approved, but after looking at their terms and interest rates I decided if I was going to be stuck with loans till I croak that I liked the federal program better.
If I wanted the terms the private loan companies offered I was just going to try to get a personal loan from the bank. Better rates and I am not "stuck" with it forever.
Course I'd pay it off, but I'd rather be on the hook to my bank than some of those private student loan companies.
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