Mail In Ballots and the Upcoming Election

[tallguy]

Oct 2, 2020 13:09:28 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

So more problems in NJ. Local north jersey paper reports that multiple people have received 2 mail in ballots. Due to registering with SS # then registering at motor vehicle where license # used, or when name us changed,e.g., maiden to married
Plus ballots sent to former residents
Election official was quoted, we can’t fix this because there are 2 separate systems (can’t link)
What a complete mess this year’s election will be for president, senator, congress and local. It’s making many people angry because we didn’t have a voice in the decision to only have mail in ballots and most feel going to polls won’t be worse than going to grocery store.

I’ve received only blah, blah, blah form letters when I’ve contacted governor, senators, election board, etc

While it may be true that officials cannot prevent someone from receiving two ballots if they registered at different places, it is pretty well certain that only one ballot will be counted.  It may be two separate systems for registration purposes, but it is not two separate systems for processing ballots.  If someone wants to risk conviction for vote fraud, go ahead and try.

[haapai]

Oct 2, 2020 16:39:24 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Oct 2, 2020 16:19:08 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

When anything short of absolute perfection is the indicator that it is a shit show, I think everywhere will be a shit show.

True.

At least Jersey is not a swing state.

Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan and Arizona all have had no excuse mail in voting for years. They won't be doing this for the first time, so they won't have that "new process" risk.

Balderdash!  Michigan's no-excuse absentee voting is new.  Prior to 2018, you needed to be over a certain age or hit some other fairly narrow criteria in order to vote absentee.  If you were over 60-something, you were golden.  If you were working the polls on election day, you were fine.  If you were neither and working unpredictable 12-hour shifts 45 minutes from the polls, you had no basis for requesting an absentee ballot. 

It was sick.  It encouraged overworked people to lie in order to vote absentee.  That's why the ballot initiative to allow no-excuse absentee voting passed.

We have no experience processing the number of absentee ballots that are expected to be cast in this election.  We will be doing this for the first time. 

[Deleted]

I swear they’re making it difficult here in MO. It was not clear to me from the web site whether I needed to obtain a ballot in advance for early voting. (I’m Old so I qualify.). I mailed in my request. Two weeks later they sent me a letter- rejected either because I hadn’t signed it or my signature didn’t match their records. They didn’t say which, of course. The former is extremely unlikely. My signature is distinctive and consistent. Maybe I left out my middle name?

Fortunately a friend who already voted told me I don’t need to obtain a ballot in advance. I always vote even if the only issue is a sales tax. This vote is VERY important to me. I will be at the Elections Office on Monday.

[oped]

Another reason I’m glad we chose in person.


l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2020%2F10%2F16%2Fus%2Fpolitics%2Fohio-mail-ballots-trump.html%3Fsmid%3Dfb-share%26fbclid%3DIwAR0kQ-aFoZWwOKJnx603FPgwlgkY4Gaz5x19XI0i59x8st5ZMz0hkKY-WgI&h=AT2mVpPY11CvIHpqrLvqUhR7zu9USJFzYcwrwTPAwU4BIZxDDYo76YAYx2XKfSxbCVPfaRI2nUgqcCrQrvHfxFhRFUtQLXijZPcOtLQy7uxo8MV3M_TG8zNPwL65mk3fY_xfjPE&__tn__=%2CmH-R&c%5B0%5D=AT0ypZ0ec4pywMlxvwgWvdsnKofyByvhSX6CVtpwzZWeeI4ooS1C7xpl91Ok1VxCyinF2fqwXSp4Zp3gr7U9rI0WotOEl4LHp2TMfwpH3vZTz1YZm6Hf2nwxkUJ0xUZhg-J8-u-rMxwMF31zORenp6KL

[jerseygirl]

I think there will be many problems to come with mail in ballots. We’re seeing many already
Yet people continue to dismiss Trump’s concerns about the many more mail ins this year especially the ones going out without request first. Dismissed as no evidence of fraud but what about evidence of FUBAR.
In NJ we don’t have a choice every registered voter was mailed a ballot - including deceased, maiden and married names, previous resident etc

[TheOtherMe]

I was able to track my absentee ballot online from the day the County received it, when the absentee ballot was mailed and when it was returned.

Several years ago, my dad tried to complete his ballot and mail it on his own.  He failed miserably and they returned it.  The two of us called and they told me what to do to fix it so it would count.  After that, he waited until I was there to help him.  

In 2016, he already had dementia.  He said he wanted to vote.  When the absentee ballot came, he said he only wanted to vote for the presidential election.  He told me anybody but Trump because "I don't like him".  So a then 92 year old man with dementia could see through him.

That was the only race I marked on his ballot, he signed it in the right place and I mailed it for him.

[Tennesseer]

Oct 17, 2020 13:42:41 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

I swear they’re making it difficult here in MO. It was not clear to me from the web site whether I needed to obtain a ballot in advance for early voting. (I’m Old so I qualify.). I mailed in my request. Two weeks later they sent me a letter- rejected either because I hadn’t signed it or my signature didn’t match their records. They didn’t say which, of course. The former is extremely unlikely. My signature is distinctive and consistent. Maybe I left out my middle name?

Fortunately a friend who already voted told me I don’t need to obtain a ballot in advance. I always vote even if the only issue is a sales tax. This vote is VERY important to me. I will be at the Elections Office on Monday.

About those signatures. Over time, our signatures change a bit. What you used your signature on with voting twenty years ago may not look like it does today. I know my signature does not look the same.

[Deleted]

Oct 17, 2020 14:45:34 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

About those signatures. Over time, our signatures change a bit. What you used your signature on with voting twenty years ago may not look like it does today. I know my signature does not look the same.

I've been in this state for only 5 years so I doubt it's that, but it des point out one of the weaknesses of mail-in voting. I don't know if Dad will be voting this year- he's locked down in a nursing home- but he had a stroke in March and I doubt his signature would match previous ones. In addition, the people matching signatures aren't trained graphoanalysts- they're civil servants. Who makes the final call?

One podcast I heard pointed out that every state has laws about when absentee ballots can be opened and counted- typically not before election day and sometimes not till after the polls have closed. My guess is that we won't know who's President as quickly as we usually do.

[thyme4change]

Oct 15, 2020 15:52:54 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Oct 2, 2020 13:09:28 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

So more problems in NJ. Local north jersey paper reports that multiple people have received 2 mail in ballots. Due to registering with SS # then registering at motor vehicle where license # used, or when name us changed,e.g., maiden to married
Plus ballots sent to former residents
Election official was quoted, we can’t fix this because there are 2 separate systems (can’t link)
What a complete mess this year’s election will be for president, senator, congress and local. It’s making many people angry because we didn’t have a voice in the decision to only have mail in ballots and most feel going to polls won’t be worse than going to grocery store.

I’ve received only blah, blah, blah form letters when I’ve contacted governor, senators, election board, etc

While it may be true that officials cannot prevent someone from receiving two ballots if they registered at different places, it is pretty well certain that only one ballot will be counted.  It may be two separate systems for registration purposes, but it is not two separate systems for processing ballots.  If someone wants to risk conviction for vote fraud, go ahead and try.

Lots of effort necessary, and you need hundreds of thousands in specific location to make a difference.

[justme]

I only know about my state, but there's a process to go through to change it. Though mine now is mostly a scribble for my last name - got too many pita cursive letters. I haven't changed it yet - just busted out my driver's license and signed it like that.

My state also has a way to do something if your signature isn't accepted. It's an affidavit but didn't click to see what it requires. I believe you have a few days after election day to fix it.

So far my copy the signature on my driver's license has worked. Even though I'm so slow at it now you'd think I'm forging it.

[TheOtherMe]

Signature comparison is one of the things our voter ID law is in court for.  However, it did not get a stay on implementation so it is a requirement for this election.

The Secretary of State in Iowa has decided that absentee ballots can be opened and counted on November 2, the day before election day.  Here the absentee votes are the first votes to show up on the county website.  Those are done by the time the individual polling places can start doing their work--especially if they have voters in line at closing time.  Those people get to vote.

[Deleted]

Oct 17, 2020 14:45:34 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Oct 17, 2020 13:42:41 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

I swear they’re making it difficult here in MO. It was not clear to me from the web site whether I needed to obtain a ballot in advance for early voting. (I’m Old so I qualify.). I mailed in my request. Two weeks later they sent me a letter- rejected either because I hadn’t signed it or my signature didn’t match their records. They didn’t say which, of course. The former is extremely unlikely. My signature is distinctive and consistent. Maybe I left out my middle name?

Fortunately a friend who already voted told me I don’t need to obtain a ballot in advance. I always vote even if the only issue is a sales tax. This vote is VERY important to me. I will be at the Elections Office on Monday.

About those signatures. Over time, our signatures change a bit. What you used your signature on with voting twenty years ago may not look like it does today. I know my signature does not look the same.

I never thought about that. My signature isn’t even the same day to day. It depends on whether I’m in a hurry or not, or feeling fancy or not lol. A few of the letters change styles, depending. Oops!

[Tennesseer]

Oct 17, 2020 16:20:34 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Oct 17, 2020 14:45:34 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

About those signatures. Over time, our signatures change a bit. What you used your signature on with voting twenty years ago may not look like it does today. I know my signature does not look the same.

I never thought about that. My signature isn’t even the same day to day. It depends on whether I’m in a hurry or not, or feeling fancy or not lol. A few of the letters change styles, depending. Oops!

Bingo!

[jerseygirl]

Oct 17, 2020 15:55:44 GMT -5 justme said:

I only know about my state, but there's a process to go through to change it. Though mine now is mostly a scribble for my last name - got too many pita cursive letters. I haven't changed it yet - just busted out my driver's license and signed it like that.

My state also has a way to do something if your signature isn't accepted. It's an affidavit but didn't click to see what it requires. I believe you have a few days after election day to fix it.

So far my copy the signature on my driver's license has worked. Even though I'm so slow at it now you'd think I'm forging it.

Do you get a notification if your signature doesn’t match? By mail?
NJ is new at this mailing everyone a ballot and if voting in person at poll you get a provisional ballot
Over the years my handwriting and signature have gotten worse since I use computers so much now

[Tennesseer]

Oct 17, 2020 16:20:34 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Oct 17, 2020 14:45:34 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

About those signatures. Over time, our signatures change a bit. What you used your signature on with voting twenty years ago may not look like it does today. I know my signature does not look the same.

I never thought about that. My signature isn’t even the same day to day. It depends on whether I’m in a hurry or not, or feeling fancy or not lol. A few of the letters change styles, depending. Oops!

I should have added I registered to vote in Tennessee twenty-six years ago. So the signature on file for me is rather old. I rarely write exclusively cursive except for my signature. My last name written today looks like a few cursive letters first then a scribble for the rest. Nothing like it looked twenty-six years ago.

When I write up a list for what to shop for at the grocery store, the words noted are a mix of cursive and non-cursive letters.

[Tennesseer]

Oct 17, 2020 16:40:38 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Oct 17, 2020 15:55:44 GMT -5 justme said:

I only know about my state, but there's a process to go through to change it. Though mine now is mostly a scribble for my last name - got too many pita cursive letters. I haven't changed it yet - just busted out my driver's license and signed it like that.

My state also has a way to do something if your signature isn't accepted. It's an affidavit but didn't click to see what it requires. I believe you have a few days after election day to fix it.

So far my copy the signature on my driver's license has worked. Even though I'm so slow at it now you'd think I'm forging it.

Do you get a notification if your signature doesn’t match? By mail?
NJ is new at this mailing everyone a ballot and if voting in person at poll you get a provisional ballot
Over the years my handwriting and signature have gotten worse since I use computers so much now

[Deleted]

So, in regards to my initial concerns in the OP, I now believe that any issues with mail in voting concerning the USPS will not be the fault of the employees. From what I understand, regardless of employees’ political stances, generally speaking, they don’t  want to be responsible for anything that might go awry with this election.

For years, political mail (specifically campaign mailings at least) has had a visual symbol attached to make it easily identified as what it is. It has special handling requirements to make sure it gets delivered on time and correctly, so the USPS can’t be held responsible if a particular candidate loses in any election. I believe the same measures or more will apply to ballot requests and ballots for the 2020 Presidential election. Especially since it’s my understanding that mail in ballots are clearly marked as such.

I think the worker bees at USPS want to do what they can to make sure everything pertaining to this election is delivered as it should be. Purposefully delaying or destroying mail, any mail, is not only cause for immediate termination, but also a federal crime, and always has been.

It’s also my understanding that the Postmaster General has backed off of some (maybe all?) of the things he was putting into place that was delaying mail, which allows the employees to continue performing their jobs to the best of their ability.

I am now fairly confident that any potential issues with mail in voting will be problems with the processes in place in individual states, rather than issues with USPS.

I just wanted to follow up with my OP. Please feel free to carry on with the current discussion.

[justme]

Oct 17, 2020 16:40:38 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Oct 17, 2020 15:55:44 GMT -5 justme said:

I only know about my state, but there's a process to go through to change it. Though mine now is mostly a scribble for my last name - got too many pita cursive letters. I haven't changed it yet - just busted out my driver's license and signed it like that.

My state also has a way to do something if your signature isn't accepted. It's an affidavit but didn't click to see what it requires. I believe you have a few days after election day to fix it.

So far my copy the signature on my driver's license has worked. Even though I'm so slow at it now you'd think I'm forging it.

Do you get a notification if your signature doesn’t match? By mail?
NJ is new at this mailing everyone a ballot and if voting in person at poll you get a provisional ballot
Over the years my handwriting and signature have gotten worse since I use computers so much now

I'm not sure - mine have always been accepted. I know we can go online and get the status. There's probably a process, but besides filing in the dots with black ink the only other instructions are to put it in the privacy sleeve and sign the envelope. So limited things to go wrong.

[Deleted]

There is NO mail fraud with ballots. It's been proven again and again.

Oregon has voted 100% by mail for 22 years. The rest of the country should as well. 

[billisonboard]

Oct 17, 2020 19:46:25 GMT -5 @shastasnewlife said:

There is NO mail fraud with ballots. It's been proven again and again.

Oregon has voted 100% by mail for 22 years. The rest of the country should as well. 

You aren't correct that there is NO mail fraud.

Oregon has held postal elections since 2000 and has only reported 14 fraudulent votes attempted by mail.link

It is insignificant but it does happen. Need to acknowledge that because the rare incident will be used against those who claim "NO".

[Deleted]

FFS, 14 morons who voted twice in 22 years... lol

[jerseygirl]

Oct 17, 2020 22:15:23 GMT -5 @shastasnewlife said:

FFS, 14 morons who voted twice in 22 years... lol

Worried about the potential massive confusion with mail in voting not just for those who request mail in ballots . Why do you insist it’s only about fraud, agree only small amounts of actual fraud. But you don’t seem to acknowledge the already observed experience with confusion impacting voting
In NJ we don’t have a choice as mail in ballots were sent to all registered voters, if you go to polling site you will have a provisional ballot
Go back on this thread and see all the problems already found.

[Deleted]

It's not just about fraud - it's completely a bullshit, made-up, non-issue.

It's a Trump talking point. Thus, it's bullshit just like the other 100% of crap that comes out of his lying, narcissistic, civil war inciting mouth.

He wants people to think the election was rigged and thus gives him a reason to incite a civil war with his "army".  (https://www.armyfortrump.com/)

His ego can't stand the idea that his ass is going to lose - bigly, because Americans are choosing to live in the future rather than let him keep killing people and he knows it.

And, when you perpetuate this crap, you assist him with his efforts.

[jerseygirl]

Oct 18, 2020 10:36:17 GMT -5 @shastasnewlife said:

It's not just about fraud - it's completely a bullshit, made-up, non-issue.

It's a Trump talking point. Thus, it's bullshit just like the other 100% of crap that comes out of his lying, narcissistic, civil war inciting mouth.

He wants people to think the election was rigged and thus gives him a reason to incite a civil war with his "army".  (https://www.armyfortrump.com/)

His ego can't stand the idea that his ass is going to lose - bigly, because Americans are choosing to live in the future rather than let him keep killing people and he knows it.

And, when you perpetuate this crap, you assist him with his efforts.

From what I’ve seen, he talks about mail in voting (not requested but sent) being a problem. Not fraud

[billisonboard]

Oct 18, 2020 10:01:03 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Oct 17, 2020 22:15:23 GMT -5 @shastasnewlife said:

FFS, 14 morons who voted twice in 22 years... lol

Worried about the potential massive confusion with mail in voting not just for those who request mail in ballots . Why do you insist it’s only about fraud, agree only small amounts of actual fraud. But you don’t seem to acknowledge the already observed experience with confusion impacting voting
In NJ we don’t have a choice as mail in ballots were sent to all registered voters, if you go to polling site you will have a provisional ballot
Go back on this thread and see all the problems already found.

What does it mean that they "will have provisional ballot"?


OH MY FUCKING GOD! The election people will verify they didn't receive and count your mail in ballot before they count your in person ballot. WHAT A TOTAL DISASTER!

And, yes, they are finding and fixing problems. Welcome to the real world where there exists imperfections.

[billisonboard]

Oct 18, 2020 10:53:15 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Oct 18, 2020 10:36:17 GMT -5 @shastasnewlife said:

It's not just about fraud - it's completely a bullshit, made-up, non-issue.

It's a Trump talking point. Thus, it's bullshit just like the other 100% of crap that comes out of his lying, narcissistic, civil war inciting mouth.

He wants people to think the election was rigged and thus gives him a reason to incite a civil war with his "army".  (https://www.armyfortrump.com/)

His ego can't stand the idea that his ass is going to lose - bigly, because Americans are choosing to live in the future rather than let him keep killing people and he knows it.

And, when you perpetuate this crap, you assist him with his efforts.

From what I’ve seen, he talks about mail in voting (not requested but sent) being a problem. Not fraud

Last month, at a rally in Middletown, near the state capital, Trump claimed of Democrats that the “only way they can win Pennsylvania, frankly, is to cheat on the ballots.” link

Now you have seen this so, "(f)rom what I've seen" won't cut it.

[jerseygirl]

Oct 18, 2020 10:55:06 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Oct 18, 2020 10:01:03 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Worried about the potential massive confusion with mail in voting not just for those who request mail in ballots . Why do you insist it’s only about fraud, agree only small amounts of actual fraud. But you don’t seem to acknowledge the already observed experience with confusion impacting voting
In NJ we don’t have a choice as mail in ballots were sent to all registered voters, if you go to polling site you will have a provisional ballot
Go back on this thread and see all the problems already found.

What does it mean that they "will have provisional ballot"?


OH MY FUCKING GOD! The election people will verify they didn't receive and count your mail in ballot before they count your in person ballot. WHAT A TOTAL DISASTER!

And, yes, they are finding and fixing problems. Welcome to the real world where there exists imperfections.

Provisional ballot means poll workers will search for a mail in ballot you might have sent. If not found, the provisional ballots will be counted last. The imperfections already observed are in such large numbers to give a different election outcome.
Sorry that you think concerns are foolish but a lot of people in NJ are not happy at all about this

[billisonboard]

Oct 18, 2020 11:06:26 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Oct 18, 2020 10:55:06 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

What does it mean that they "will have provisional ballot"?


OH MY FUCKING GOD! The election people will verify they didn't receive and count your mail in ballot before they count your in person ballot. WHAT A TOTAL DISASTER!

And, yes, they are finding and fixing problems. Welcome to the real world where there exists imperfections.

Provisional ballot means poll workers will search for a mail in ballot you might have sent. If not found, the provisional ballots will be counted last. The imperfections already observed are in such large numbers to give a different election outcome.
Sorry that you think concerns are foolish but a lot of people in NJ are not happy at all about this

NO! People unhappy? THE HORROR!

Yes, if you mail in your ballot and it is already processed, your provisional ballot won't be counted. If your mail in ballot hasn't been received, your in person ballot will be counted "last'. Yes, LAST. Reality is.

The election has not been certified yet so it is impossible for the outcome to have been altered.

[Deleted]

Oct 18, 2020 11:06:26 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Oct 18, 2020 10:55:06 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Provisional ballot means poll workers will search for a mail in ballot you might have sent. If not found, the provisional ballots will be counted last. The imperfections already observed are in such large numbers to give a different election outcome.
Sorry that you think concerns are foolish but a lot of people in NJ are not happy at all about this

People in OR aren't happy we have so many tourists. Just as with mail-in voting during a pandemic - we get to deal with it...

Voting twice is a FELONY. This is at least part of the reason there is no measurable voter fraud. WTF is going to go to prison to vote twice? 

Done arguing about a Trump talking point. He'll lose. He'll call his Army into the streets. There will be bloodshed in large cities. We already know it's going to happen... As with mail-in voting, you'll have to deal with that as well probably if you live in a big city.

[thyme4change]

Oct 17, 2020 15:55:44 GMT -5 justme said:

I only know about my state, but there's a process to go through to change it. Though mine now is mostly a scribble for my last name - got too many pita cursive letters. I haven't changed it yet - just busted out my driver's license and signed it like that.

My state also has a way to do something if your signature isn't accepted. It's an affidavit but didn't click to see what it requires. I believe you have a few days after election day to fix it.

So far my copy the signature on my driver's license has worked. Even though I'm so slow at it now you'd think I'm forging it.

My signature has gotten quite flat over the years. I'm down to a first letter and then a squiggly line. I also took my driver's license out to see what they have on file and went back to forming more letters of my name.