billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 24, 2020 13:04:57 GMT -5
Interesting discussion here on this thread. Reminds me "Now, I have to tell you, it's an unbelievably complex subject," he added. "Nobody knew health care could be so complicated." link Yes, he would be much better off if he stopped speaking sometimes... It is funny, though. Everyone wants to change healthcare until it impacts them personally. Then it's "well you can't change THAT". If we want to have government funded universal healthcare, there will have to be some significant changes from everyone. I will be the first to say I do not want to go to a system where the wait times are a lot longer. Plenty of articles out there documenting Canadian wait times versus ours and I would not be pleased. Others want to shift payment to the taxpayers but not reduce costs that impact them. Another big issues is malpractice wards...imagine the uproar if we limit malpractice awards like they do in other countries (which I am in favor of, btw). And so on...there are a lot of changes and EVERYONE will have to give. I just know I am far too intelligent to think that I have the answers.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Apr 24, 2020 13:10:51 GMT -5
Yes, he would be much better off if he stopped speaking sometimes... It is funny, though. Everyone wants to change healthcare until it impacts them personally. Then it's "well you can't change THAT". If we want to have government funded universal healthcare, there will have to be some significant changes from everyone. I will be the first to say I do not want to go to a system where the wait times are a lot longer. Plenty of articles out there documenting Canadian wait times versus ours and I would not be pleased. Others want to shift payment to the taxpayers but not reduce costs that impact them. Another big issues is malpractice wards...imagine the uproar if we limit malpractice awards like they do in other countries (which I am in favor of, btw). And so on...there are a lot of changes and EVERYONE will have to give. I just know I am far too intelligent to think that I have the answers. Lol. No one has the answers, which is why we continue on
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 24, 2020 13:15:18 GMT -5
After a long conversation I had with an Indian and a Chinese co-worker we all came to the conclusion no system is perfect however all of ours had some things they did better than the other two.
That's my problem with the topic. There will never be a perfect system because it's designed by humans. We need to accept that and quit throwing the baby out with the bath water.
At the same time we are also incredibly arrogant in this country, we are not the best at EVERYTHING. We could stand to be open minded and learn something.
There are areas we in the US do better, there are areas we do a hell of a lot worse. Our maternity/infant statistics are horrid compared to other first nations. We could look at other nations that do better than us and see what we could incorporate into our system. Then maybe we do better over here so let's not change that.
I think this virus is pulling back the curtain on a hell of a lot of ugly in our systems. It's not just the price tag, there is also systemic racism, classism, ableism and sexism in our health care industry that is also contributing to the situation. We need to do some serious soul searching as a nation if we don't want to end up in the same boat come the next pandemic.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 24, 2020 13:21:35 GMT -5
After a long conversation I had with an Indian and a Chinese co-worker we all came to the conclusion no system is perfect however all of ours had some things they did better than the other two. That's my problem with the topic. There will never be a perfect system because it's designed by humans. We need to accept that and quit throwing the baby out with the bath water. At the same time we are also incredibly arrogant in this country, we are not the best at EVERYTHING. We could stand to be open minded and learn something. There are areas we in the US do better, there are areas we do a hell of a lot worse. Our maternity/infant statistics are horrid compared to other first nations. We could look at other nations that do better than us and see what we could incorporate into our system. Then maybe we do better over here so let's not change that. I think this virus is pulling back the curtain on a hell of a lot of ugly in our systems. It's not just the price tag, there is also systemic racism, classism, ableism and sexism in our health care industry that is also contributing to the situation. We need to do some serious soul searching as a nation if we don't want to end up in the same boat come the next pandemic.Actually, I think a big part of the problem is we have something like this pretty consistently 100 years apart. And everyone thinks we need to overhaul systems to account for once-a-century events. Just like with 9/11, everyone decided we needed to freak out and do all kinds of stuff that study after study has shown to have been meaningless, ineffective, and incredibly expensive. Everyone wants to manage to the freakout events, because it just sounds uninspired to say "meh, sometimes extremes happen and we're just going to have a bad time, but it doesn't make sense to change the entire system for these rare events".
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Apr 24, 2020 13:23:14 GMT -5
Interesting discussion here on this thread. Reminds me "Now, I have to tell you, it's an unbelievably complex subject," he added. "Nobody knew health care could be so complicated." link Yes, he would be much better off if he stopped speaking sometimes... It is funny, though. Everyone wants to change healthcare until it impacts them personally. Then it's "well you can't change THAT". If we want to have government funded universal healthcare, there will have to be some significant changes from everyone. I will be the first to say I do not want to go to a system where the wait times are a lot longer. Plenty of articles out there documenting Canadian wait times versus ours and I would not be pleased. Others want to shift payment to the taxpayers but not reduce costs that impact them. Another big issues is malpractice wards...imagine the uproar if we limit malpractice awards like they do in other countries (which I am in favor of, btw). And so on...there are a lot of changes and EVERYONE will have to give. ....and yet, our health outcomes are similar, so how bad could the wait times be?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 24, 2020 13:27:31 GMT -5
Yes, he would be much better off if he stopped speaking sometimes... It is funny, though. Everyone wants to change healthcare until it impacts them personally. Then it's "well you can't change THAT". If we want to have government funded universal healthcare, there will have to be some significant changes from everyone. I will be the first to say I do not want to go to a system where the wait times are a lot longer. Plenty of articles out there documenting Canadian wait times versus ours and I would not be pleased. Others want to shift payment to the taxpayers but not reduce costs that impact them. Another big issues is malpractice wards...imagine the uproar if we limit malpractice awards like they do in other countries (which I am in favor of, btw). And so on...there are a lot of changes and EVERYONE will have to give. ....and yet, our health outcomes are similar, so how bad could the wait times be? That depends, if I told you that you could be in pain for 1 hour or 1 month...but that at the end of that time your health would be fine...does that matter to you?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Apr 24, 2020 13:27:32 GMT -5
Yes, he would be much better off if he stopped speaking sometimes... It is funny, though. Everyone wants to change healthcare until it impacts them personally. Then it's "well you can't change THAT". If we want to have government funded universal healthcare, there will have to be some significant changes from everyone. I will be the first to say I do not want to go to a system where the wait times are a lot longer. Plenty of articles out there documenting Canadian wait times versus ours and I would not be pleased. Others want to shift payment to the taxpayers but not reduce costs that impact them. Another big issues is malpractice wards...imagine the uproar if we limit malpractice awards like they do in other countries (which I am in favor of, btw). And so on...there are a lot of changes and EVERYONE will have to give. ....and yet, our health outcomes are similar, so how bad could the wait times be? Problem is, you consider only health while I consider lifestyle, too. Sure, I can live with a bad hip for months but that would seriously impact my lifestyle. There is a reason that people with money cross into the US to get hip replacements and other surgeries that are not life-saving. If I have an acne flare up, I call my dermatologist and I am in fairly quickly. There is no impact on my health but I sure as shit don't want to walk around with cystic acne. Those are the things that I take for granted because I don't have extremely long wait times. When I had a suspect mole, I was in the dermatologists office within hours and at Fox Chase within 6 days for an excision. If I had to wait months to get into a dermatology appt, my melanoma in situ might have turned into stage 1 or worse. So yes, to me not having to wait for an appt is huge.
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jerseygirl
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Post by jerseygirl on Apr 24, 2020 15:21:33 GMT -5
Infant statistics in the US include deaths in all the really premature babies. US puts a lot of effort trying to save them. Many countries don’t include deaths in the very premature babies so US seems worse
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Apr 24, 2020 16:03:24 GMT -5
Everyone needs to be willing to accept some pain if we are to get to a better system. Drug costs need to come down, so profits will decrease, and maybe innovation takes longer. We need malpractice reform. Problem with that, we need to come up with a way to care for people who have had an adverse outcome, so the family is not saddled with the costs. Physician income needs to come down. But, without reforming how much medical training costs, students will vote with their feet, and go to higher paid specialties. Unhelpful care needs to be wrung out of the system, but then patients will need to accept that they may not get what they want. Hospital costs need to go down, but then the employees will likely see salaries decline, because payroll is the highest cost in the hospital. Insurance needs to be reformed, but then you could see significant job losses in that industry. And that is just some of the things that need to be addressed.
But at the end of the day, we are all going to have to accept some pain. Medical costs cannot continue to rise as they are, especially with the current crisis requiring the outlays that it is to deal with the fallout. This may not be a popular opinion, but it is the view from someone on the front lines.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Apr 24, 2020 16:37:57 GMT -5
....and yet, our health outcomes are similar, so how bad could the wait times be? Problem is, you consider only health while I consider lifestyle, too. Sure, I can live with a bad hip for months but that would seriously impact my lifestyle. There is a reason that people with money cross into the US to get hip replacements and other surgeries that are not life-saving. If I have an acne flare up, I call my dermatologist and I am in fairly quickly. There is no impact on my health but I sure as shit don't want to walk around with cystic acne. Those are the things that I take for granted because I don't have extremely long wait times. When I had a suspect mole, I was in the dermatologists office within hours and at Fox Chase within 6 days for an excision. If I had to wait months to get into a dermatology appt, my melanoma in situ might have turned into stage 1 or worse. So yes, to me not having to wait for an appt is huge. This is from Life Part Two...I think she's in Oregon. "Thanks. I stumbled on cataplexy this morning and that seems a lot like what happens to him. He will start uncontrollably laughing then can't move. It's the weirdest thing.
Narcolepsy might explain why he goes to bed about 5am and sleeps til 5-6pm and is still exhausted all the time. He's been completely unable to change his sleep cycle to sleep more at night. He'd been working 2nd shift as a workaround...
He's going to have to wait again here to establish with a new doc, then have to wait for a new referral to psych for his antidepressant, etc... It will probably be another year or two before he even sees a doctor unless he ends up in ER from the kidney stone. Hopefully they can send him to a neurologist who might have some idea."
Tell me again about wait times. A year or two? In any case, I'd rather wait a bit for elective surgery and have ALL my fellow Canadian citizens covered. I'd rather wait a bit than see people begging for money for cancer care for their loved ones. I'd rather wait a bit and not see people going bankrupt because of medical costs. I'd rather wait a bit than pay ten times the going rate for an MRI. However, you've got yours, so it's all good, right?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2020 18:50:28 GMT -5
In the US, money (via "good insurance") buys you quicker access to care and a much wider variety of providers. And, as a society, we are a fairly selfish bunch.
Those who get nearly instant access don't want to have any wait and don't seem to care that those with Medicaid often wait months or years to see a doctor or specialist even for very serious conditions.
If I am paying for dental care, for example, I can get an appointment next week all over town. However, as soon as they hear Medicaid, then you wait for one of their few, if any, "Medicaid patient" appointment slots or get put on a waiting list.
I think this is very wrong. If the doctor can see you, then they should be able to use that same 10 minutes to see me.
Then, if you are seen and put on medication, you get refills. When you have Medicaid, they make you go to the damn doctor every month or two just to refill your medication. They also have rules about not releasing any new RX until day 29, so if you need to take medication daily and can' skip it, you have make a trek to the pharmacy when you are nearly out of your medication.
If you can't get an appointment for your BS "medication refill doctor's appt" then you go without. It's ridiculous, a complete waste of time, and a complete waste of doctor's appointments other people could have used. And, that shit doesn't happen when you have Kaiser or any other private insurance I have ever had.
The comments tend to be "get a better job" or "buy better insurance" and you can have good access too. Thing is, many on Medicaid already work low-income jobs or can't improve their work situation due to their illness or because a higher income causes you to end up with an ACA plan that's worse than Medicaid.
My son is in this situation. No one wants to hire someone who has seizures and temporary bouts of paralysis all the time at work, but without a "good job" or the ability to control the condition to go to school to get said good job, he'll always have shitty insurance and will probably never get an answer or any sort of treatment. And, this goes on all over America, every day, to millions of people.
I don't care if you perform surgery or clean toilets for a living, you and your family members should not have to go without care because this country values money over people. If you have Blue Cross from a CEO job, you should be able to see the same neurologist someone living next door to you on Medicaid should. You don't "deserve" better health simply because you have a better job.
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stillmovingforward
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Post by stillmovingforward on Apr 24, 2020 19:19:05 GMT -5
To piggyback on that, my DD1 had seizures when she was 2 years old. 2 YEARS OLD! We had to wait 9 months, with seizures, before Medicaid would allow a referral to a pediatric neurologist. Even though the doctor wanted she to see the neurologist right away. She is now in her 3rd year of medical school. With a focus on low income and rural medicine.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Apr 24, 2020 20:32:14 GMT -5
In the US, money (via "good insurance") buys you quicker access to care and a much wider variety of providers. And, as a society, we are a fairly selfish bunch. Those who get nearly instant access don't want to have any wait and don't seem to care that those with Medicaid often wait months or years to see a doctor or specialist even for very serious conditions. If I am paying for dental care, for example, I can get an appointment next week all over town. However, as soon as they hear Medicaid, then you wait for one of their few, if any, "Medicaid patient" appointment slots or get put on a waiting list. I think this is very wrong. If the doctor can see you, then they should be able to use that same 10 minutes to see me. Then, if you are seen and put on medication, you get refills. When you have Medicaid, they make you go to the damn doctor every month or two just to refill your medication. They also have rules about not releasing any new RX until day 29, so if you need to take medication daily and can' skip it, you have make a trek to the pharmacy when you are nearly out of your medication. If you can't get an appointment for your BS "medication refill doctor's appt" then you go without. It's ridiculous, a complete waste of time, and a complete waste of doctor's appointments other people could have used. And, that shit doesn't happen when you have Kaiser or any other private insurance I have ever had. The comments tend to be "get a better job" or "buy better insurance" and you can have good access too. Thing is, many on Medicaid already work low-income jobs or can't improve their work situation due to their illness or because a higher income causes you to end up with an ACA plan that's worse than Medicaid. My son is in this situation. No one wants to hire someone who has seizures and temporary bouts of paralysis all the time at work, but without a "good job" or the ability to control the condition to go to school to get said good job, he'll always have shitty insurance and will probably never get an answer or any sort of treatment. And, this goes on all over America, every day, to millions of people. I don't care if you perform surgery or clean toilets for a living, you and your family members should not have to go without care because this country values money over people. If you have Blue Cross from a CEO job, you should be able to see the same neurologist someone living next door to you on Medicaid should. You don't "deserve" better health simply because you have a better job. I don’t disagree with you. My daughter turned 18 in July and qualifies for Medicaid due to her disability. But I know our doctor choices go way down when you are on Medicaid so I pay to keep her on my insurance. A lot of doctors will not accept Medicaid patients or else they limit the number because of how snotty the reimbursement is. If the government gave reasonable reimbursements that actually covered the costs we wouldn’t have these issues. But yes, let’s put everyone on a government plan without reducing costs and see how well that goes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2020 22:05:00 GMT -5
I tend to look at all the bloated insurance costs and other BS that goes along with healthcare as great places to cut.
-Make medical school free
-Have tort reform so doctors don't pay massive malpractice insurance policies
-Get rid of ALL insurance companies and process everything centrally like CMS does for Medicare.
-Get rid of all pharmaceutical ads in this country. They used to be banned and they are wasting all of us a ton of money.
-When you have nationalized hospitals, think of all the savings for supplies, etc... and the ability to move resources and staff when needed for pesky things like pandemics.
Like them or hate them, Kaiser essentially is nationalized medicine on a small scale. They aren't perfect, but when you need to see someone urgently, they make it happen. When you can wait, then you often do.
At this point, I think way more people are on board with some sort of single-payer type option than used to be, but until the major issues like insurance and pharmaceutical company lobbyists are dealt with nothing will change. Like everything else in this country - it's ALL about the money and who's pockets are being lined.
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justme
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Post by justme on Apr 24, 2020 22:25:16 GMT -5
Interesting discussion here on this thread. Reminds me "Now, I have to tell you, it's an unbelievably complex subject," he added. "Nobody knew health care could be so complicated." link Yes, he would be much better off if he stopped speaking sometimes... It is funny, though. Everyone wants to change healthcare until it impacts them personally. Then it's "well you can't change THAT". If we want to have government funded universal healthcare, there will have to be some significant changes from everyone. I will be the first to say I do not want to go to a system where the wait times are a lot longer. Plenty of articles out there documenting Canadian wait times versus ours and I would not be pleased. Others want to shift payment to the taxpayers but not reduce costs that impact them. Another big issues is malpractice wards...imagine the uproar if we limit malpractice awards like they do in other countries (which I am in favor of, btw). And so on...there are a lot of changes and EVERYONE will have to give. A big way they're able to limit malpractice suits is the fact that they don't have to pay millions for medical care in those other countries. It's kind of shit to say I know the doctors fuck up will cause you to have $2 million dollars worth of medical care over the rest of your life but here's $200,000. Hope you weren't impacted enough to keep you from getting a good enough job to afford really good care!
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Apr 24, 2020 23:06:45 GMT -5
With our health system, you can talk all you want about the fat cat doctors and executives, but what is really sucking the cash and not giving any value is the small army of mostly female employees at the provider's offices and the insurance companies that do nothing but push paper. If you got it down to one set of plans, one set of rules, one set of paperwork, and one set of software that automated 99% of the work, you could save a lot of money, but you'd also be putting a lot of ordinary people out of work. This is why Obama couldn't do single payer when we were heading into a recession.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Apr 25, 2020 7:49:59 GMT -5
For a provider, the major drawback to seeing Medicaid and Medicare patients is the reimbursement process. The Medicaid reimbursement in Iowa is so screwed up that many providers will not accept Medicaid patients. Privatized Medicaid has not worked here for patients or providers but the Governor says it does It can take 8-10 months to receive the reimbursement. That's why the facilities in my area who were treating mostly Medicaid patients are no longer in business. The state also keeps switching management companies and those companies have no mercy when it comes to cutting off care. Medicare reimbursement isn't as high as from insurance companies but the process is completely different and the providers do receive reimbursement. Providers can't survive treating only Medicaid and Medicare patients and it is wrong that the most vulnerable people in the country end up paying the price. It's far worse for Medicaid patients than Medicare patients. I know I would have problems finding a provider if I were to look elsewhere here but I was an established patient when I went on Medicare.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Apr 25, 2020 16:37:48 GMT -5
Another way to see the toll of the virus is to take a look at your local paper's obituary pages. I get the Boston Sunday Globe every week, and, as my parents and their parents before them did, I read it cover to cover including the obituaries. Usually the obituaries take up 2-3 pages. This past Sunday, BEFORE Massachusetts hit its peak, the obituaries were 11 pages long, filled with people of all ages who mostly died of Covid-19 and not a single funeral scheduled. If that doesn't put a face or faces on the toll of the virus, I'm not sure what will. Each and every person listed on Sunday had a family who cared enough about them to pay for an obituary in the newspaper to honor the life that person led. Some were highly accomplished in assorted fields, some led simpler lives, some were praised for their gentle/kind/humorous/fun-loving spirits, and others were bid farewell to over the phone thanks to dedicated medical folks. The only common thread was the virus. Yeah, if you're forced to work among other people because you're essential and can't walk away because of money and/or commitment, you have my unending respect and prayers. The heartbreaking length of the obituary section in last week’s Boston Sunday Globe mentioned above was so noteworthy that it made the evening news on ABC. ☹️
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2020 16:47:26 GMT -5
Ok, but if you get rid of the health insurance companies and the paper pushers in the local hospitals' and doctors' offices, you are eliminating an entire industry. Our economy is a set of dominoes. Try to remember that.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Apr 25, 2020 17:24:36 GMT -5
Ok, but if you get rid of the health insurance companies and the paper pushers in the local hospitals' and doctors' offices, you are eliminating an entire industry. Our economy is a set of dominoes. Try to remember that. They can work in supplementary insurance.... or retrain for something else. We thought the same thing and it didn't happen.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Apr 25, 2020 17:42:31 GMT -5
Private insurance also available in Holland Don’t know about now but at one time in Canada couldn’t have private insy Not just Holland -> all of the Netherlands. Sorry but I can't resist when I see this. For the rest the statement is correct in that you can "upgrade" your insurance to get more luxurious hospital rooms etc. However, it won't get you better or faster care for anything urgent. First criteria for care is need.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Apr 25, 2020 18:00:20 GMT -5
Private insurance also available in Holland
Don’t know about now but at one time in Canada couldn’t have private insy
You still can't in Canada. You can buy supplementary insurance, but it won't get you into surgery any faster. Or better. It's for "extras" only.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2020 18:24:56 GMT -5
Ok, but if you get rid of the health insurance companies and the paper pushers in the local hospitals' and doctors' offices, you are eliminating an entire industry. Our economy is a set of dominoes. Try to remember that. Should we never eliminate cigarette companies and tobacco fields because people would lose jobs? Coal mines? I think part of the problem is people in the US seem to lean towards the financial end of the equation before thinking about the actual point - people's health. The US has been eliminating paper hospital records and those provided a ton of jobs too. But, the people who moved all that paper around and generated it now have different jobs. Imagine all those people stuck in insurance and other potentially eliminated positions who would prefer to have a hobby farm or small business but they can't because then their family won't have good health insurance. I personally believe not only can healthcare in this country be cheaper and better by eliminating much of the overhead, but business will thrive as well because massive health insurance costs will no longer be the responsibility of businesses and people can earn their income in many different ways.
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jerseygirl
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Post by jerseygirl on Apr 25, 2020 18:55:57 GMT -5
Ok, but if you get rid of the health insurance companies and the paper pushers in the local hospitals' and doctors' offices, you are eliminating an entire industry. Our economy is a set of dominoes. Try to remember that. Should we never eliminate cigarette companies and tobacco fields because people would lose jobs? Coal mines? I think part of the problem is people in the US seem to lean towards the financial end of the equation before thinking about the actual point - people's health. The US has been eliminating paper hospital records and those provided a ton of jobs too. But, the people who moved all that paper around and generated it now have different jobs. Imagine all those people stuck in insurance and other potentially eliminated positions who would prefer to have a hobby farm or small business but they can't because then their family won't have good health insurance. I personally believe not only can healthcare in this country be cheaper and better by eliminating much of the overhead, but business will thrive as well because massive health insurance costs will no longer be the responsibility of businesses and people can earn their income in many different ways. Older son is orthopedic surgeon in a practice that has maybe 20 women working on insurance. He said he’d be happy with Medicare rates since all the money and time dealing with insurance companies would be greatly diminished. Plus insurance is a huge hassle and time waster for physicians
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Apr 25, 2020 19:27:50 GMT -5
Should we never eliminate cigarette companies and tobacco fields because people would lose jobs? Coal mines? I think part of the problem is people in the US seem to lean towards the financial end of the equation before thinking about the actual point - people's health. The US has been eliminating paper hospital records and those provided a ton of jobs too. But, the people who moved all that paper around and generated it now have different jobs. Imagine all those people stuck in insurance and other potentially eliminated positions who would prefer to have a hobby farm or small business but they can't because then their family won't have good health insurance. I personally believe not only can healthcare in this country be cheaper and better by eliminating much of the overhead, but business will thrive as well because massive health insurance costs will no longer be the responsibility of businesses and people can earn their income in many different ways. Older son is orthopedic surgeon in a practice that has maybe 20 women working on insurance. He said he’d be happy with Medicare rates since all the money and time dealing with insurance companies would be greatly diminished. Plus insurance is a huge hassle and time waster for physicians That’s what people don’t understand. The overhead associated with dealing with multiple insurance companies is insane. Reforming this and malpractice reform would go a long way to keeping salaries relatively stable
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Apr 25, 2020 19:32:35 GMT -5
Ok, but if you get rid of the health insurance companies and the paper pushers in the local hospitals' and doctors' offices, you are eliminating an entire industry. Our economy is a set of dominoes. Try to remember that. So, we should still have blacksmiths, carriage makers and the typewriter industry? So people don't lose their jobs? Sorry, but life moves on. You can complain or move with it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2020 19:36:29 GMT -5
Ok, but if you get rid of the health insurance companies and the paper pushers in the local hospitals' and doctors' offices, you are eliminating an entire industry. Our economy is a set of dominoes. Try to remember that. Should we never eliminate cigarette companies and tobacco fields because people would lose jobs? Coal mines? I think part of the problem is people in the US seem to lean towards the financial end of the equation before thinking about the actual point - people's health. The US has been eliminating paper hospital records and those provided a ton of jobs too. But, the people who moved all that paper around and generated it now have different jobs. Imagine all those people stuck in insurance and other potentially eliminated positions who would prefer to have a hobby farm or small business but they can't because then their family won't have good health insurance. I personally believe not only can healthcare in this country be cheaper and better by eliminating much of the overhead, but business will thrive as well because massive health insurance costs will no longer be the responsibility of businesses and people can earn their income in many different ways. The cigarette companies, tobacco fields, and coal mines are still here. The cigarette advertisements aren't, but that was a small part of the equation. The number of people who quit smoking decreased gradually. We didn't eliminate them all at once. And as I said, they are actually still here. Smoking has increased with this virus.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2020 19:39:45 GMT -5
Ok, but if you get rid of the health insurance companies and the paper pushers in the local hospitals' and doctors' offices, you are eliminating an entire industry. Our economy is a set of dominoes. Try to remember that. Do, we should still have blacksmiths, carriage makers and the typewriter industry? So people don't lose their jobs? Sorry, but life moves on. You can complain or move with it. All of those were eliminated gradually along with switchboard operators and elevator operators. You guys are talking about eliminating a massive industry with one fell sweep. Be realistic.
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weltschmerz
Community Leader
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Post by weltschmerz on Apr 25, 2020 19:46:21 GMT -5
I tend to look at all the bloated insurance costs and other BS that goes along with healthcare as great places to cut. -Make medical school free -Have tort reform so doctors don't pay massive malpractice insurance policies -Get rid of ALL insurance companies and process everything centrally like CMS does for Medicare. -Get rid of all pharmaceutical ads in this country. They used to be banned and they are wasting all of us a ton of money.
-When you have nationalized hospitals, think of all the savings for supplies, etc... and the ability to move resources and staff when needed for pesky things like pandemics. Like them or hate them, Kaiser essentially is nationalized medicine on a small scale. They aren't perfect, but when you need to see someone urgently, they make it happen. When you can wait, then you often do. At this point, I think way more people are on board with some sort of single-payer type option than used to be, but until the major issues like insurance and pharmaceutical company lobbyists are dealt with nothing will change. Like everything else in this country - it's ALL about the money and who's pockets are being lined. Pharmaceutical companies typically claim that one of the reasons for high drugs prices is because of the amount that they spend on research and development (R& ). According to the industry, it costs USD $2.6 billion to bring a drug to market [1]. Critics of the industry counter that companies are more focused on and spend more on promotion than on R& . Gagnon and Lexchin produced figures that showed that in the United States (US) in 2004 the industry spent USD $57.5 billion on promotion versus USD $31.5 billion on R& [2]. A report from the California-based Institute for Health and Socio-Economic Policy stated that in 2015 out of the top 100 pharmaceutical companies by sales, 64 spent twice as much on marketing and sales than on R&, 58 spent three times, 43 spent five times as much and 27 spent 10 times the amount www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5848527/No, you're not paying for Research and Development. You're paying for glossy ads in magazines and ads on TV.
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weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
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Post by weltschmerz on Apr 25, 2020 19:49:56 GMT -5
Do, we should still have blacksmiths, carriage makers and the typewriter industry? So people don't lose their jobs? Sorry, but life moves on. You can complain or move with it. All of those were eliminated gradually along with switchboard operators and elevator operators. You guys are talking about eliminating a massive industry with one fell sweep. Be realistic. Understood. ALL the other countries were able to manage it, but the USA cannot.
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