for those of you in higher education

[emma1420]

I think that residential campuses are more likely to start off with classes online.  At least my BFF works at a private liberal arts college in rural America.  They are planning to be primarily online.  The issue for them isn't the social distancing stuff in the class room, that they can figure out and get creative for the most part.   The issue for them are the dorms and dining hall.  Their dorms have communal bathrooms and social spaces.  Even if they could limit students to one per room (right now there are very few single rooms, and they come at a high premium), they still have be concerned about the bathrooms, etc.   

I think she told me that right now they have already let students know that if they live within a 50 mile radius of the college already that they cannot live on campus.  While it hasn't been publicized, she's indicated that for any student who can live at home and attend virtually that will be their policy.  They do have some students who don't have homes to go to, and so they will be allowed to come back to campus (which is 5% or less of the current population).   I know she's concerned that the college may not survive the transition.  I think they will, afterall they survived the 1918/1919 pandemics and the great depression.  I just don't think it will be pretty or look the same when this is all over.  I don't think a lot of colleges who are in similar situations will survive though.
  

[giramomma]

The head of our university system is instructing our 2 and 4 year colleges/universities to identify duplicate programs that can be cut across the state.. We're also going to see lay offs on top of furloughs, salary freezes and hiring freezes.

The last time we went through cuts, my university cut maintenance/cleaning positions as much as possible. It will be interesting to see how frequent cleanings on campuses will be handled.

 

[Deleted]

Just read an article that our flagship has accepted 1700 off the waitlist this year compared to 100 last year and are still 479 students short to make up for the 28% drop in high paying international and out of state students.   So far only 274 of the waitlist accepted students have confirmed they're coming.  Unless things change they're going to be hurting for money.

[oped]

Did I read the California state system announced yesterday that they were online till January? 

Finishing by Thanksgiving and a longer winter break is an interesting idea.

eta: www.cnn.com/2020/05/12/us/california-universities-fall-online/index.html

[giramomma]

I saw that.

[jelloshots4all]

My daughter is supposed to take a 3 credit, online class this summer.  I just saw the bill and they want to charge over $1200 for one class!  I told her to talk to her advisor as that price seems ridiculous!!

[giramomma]

May 13, 2020 10:28:23 GMT -5 jelloshots4all said:

My daughter is supposed to take a 3 credit, online class this summer.  I just saw the bill and they want to charge over $1200 for one class!  I told her to talk to her advisor as that price seems ridiculous!!

Why does it seem ridiculous? How does that compare to face-to-face prices? Is it more?

I know it seems like online education should be cheap, but I think sometimes some people make assumptions that somehow colleges should be given software, hardware, and support for free...and things like electricity should come for free too.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.

And honestly, there's a ton more work in putting a class online than in a face to face setting, from an instructional point of view. When you teach online, you simply can't wake up, have your coffee, and then sketch out what you are going to talk about for 35 minutes or so, and then go deliver your lecture.

In order to make a good online course, you really need about 3-4 months of course development time before the course launches.

ETA: If anything, you might consider being upset over paying 1200 for a traditional face to face course. We know from educational research that passive learning achieves jack squat. Yet, it's very hard to get professors to do anything other than talking at students, because that method everyone has used since the dawn of time. Active learning is where it's at. And we actually design our online courses to have lots of active learning, to include workplace applications.

[jelloshots4all]

It's not so much the online aspect, it's the price for 3 credits.  I would be upset paying that much for an in person class as well

[giramomma]

May 13, 2020 11:14:35 GMT -5 jelloshots4all said:

It's not so much the online aspect, it's the price for 3 credits.  I would be upset paying that much for an in person class as well

I dunno. Our tech college is now charging $200+/credit, when you add in all the fees.

I know it's still half what you are paying. But it's not dirt cheap, either.

I'm paying about $400ish/graduate credit, and I think its a steal, actually.

[haapai]

May 13, 2020 10:28:23 GMT -5 jelloshots4all said:

My daughter is supposed to take a 3 credit, online class this summer.  I just saw the bill and they want to charge over $1200 for one class!  I told her to talk to her advisor as that price seems ridiculous!!

She might have better options but her advisor might not mention them.  There might be a conflict of interest.

Why does your daughter want to take this course?  Is it something that interests her, something that she has to take over again, or something that she needs to graduate?  If it's the last course that she needs in order to graduate, is taking it in her best interest?  This is a lousy time to graduate and doing so may affect repayment of student loans if she has any. 

Has long ago was the course put online?  Is it subject matter that is well-suited to being taught online or just an emergency work-around that someone threw together to keep tuition flowing? 

Sadly, I don't think that the price is necessarily too high.  That's pretty cheap for three credits of anything from anywhere.  It's much more a question of design and quality than a question of price. 

[teen persuasion]

That sounds about right.

Just looked at tuition  fees for online summer courses at DS4's state university: $405 / credit hour undergrad, $581 graduate.

I know I paid $1100 for my last CS course, in 1994.

[oped]

$300- $400 a credit is lower end here.

[wvugurl26]

I don't think it's usually a good deal to do 1 or 2 classes at a time. When I was in undergrad and grad school the price for full time was the same whether you took 12 or 20 credits in the semester. The only difference was classes with fees such as science labs or computer classes.

In 2011, my work paid $1600 for me to take a 3 credit business ethics course from University of Maryland's online branch. That did reflect out of state rates. A year earlier I paid $350 for an online 3 credit business communication course from a branch of my alma mater. The flagship itself was very slow to offer online courses so I took it from a branch in my hometown.

[Lizard Queen]

I took an in-person QuickBooks class at my local community college about 5 years ago. I get the lowest rates, being within their district. Between all the extra technology fees/ other fees, it cost $1000. When I started at that CC in 1990, tuition was only $33/credit hour.

[Deleted]

I can't find the per credit tuition for DS's school, but it's $8500/semester for 13 credits and everything over that is free.  So, by that it's $566/credit for the first 13 and if you take a "heavy" 18 credit load it's $472/credit.  Ouch. 

[oped]

Ok. quick survey. Bloomsburg is the cheapest near me... they actually scale per credits from 1 - 19 and taking 3 credits is $1400. 

Penn State is $726 per credit Freshmen and Sophomores, $785-937 per credit Jr and Sr depending on program. 
Their tech school, Penn Tech is $489 pre credit.

All the rest near me are private, higher end, Susquehanna is $1485 a credit, Bucknell is $1500 a credit. 

Where my kids go to school, one is $400 a credit BY EXAM OR EXPERIENCE (meaning if you are testing out you STILL pay $400 a credit) and $1024 a credit normally.  The other kids school is $1116 a credit. 

I agree, it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense at a school that does a 12-19 credit rate, to take individual classes. 

ETA this is the per credit to take an individual class, not the normal term tuition. That will vary for everyone based on aid package and offer and I haven't calculated mine honestly. This is just listed per credit rates, which would apply to taking a single class. 

[giramomma]

Our system is signalling they want to do face to face courses. But they also feel the need to test folks throughout the semester a few times..So we'll see what happens, because there's no money for that in the budgets.

[oped]

Weekly email from son’s school revealed survey results from professors and students which support :

Enhanced health and safety measures when we return to campus

Continued remote learning or a hybrid approach to teaching and learning, permitting both online and face-to-face instruction to decrease density on campus and enable social distancing in the classroom

Flexibility in being able to choose to work or learn from home, even in the event that campus activity resumes; and

Staggered schedules to enable labs and studios to function with social distancing measures in place.

[Deleted]

This is what our email had yesterday.


While no decisions have been made about Fall 2020, the team has agreed to explore four alternative scenarios across these spheres (relaxed social distancing; moderately restrictive; significantly restrictive; stay-at-home-order). Subgroups are developing recommendations for each scenario within their domain. Members of the team are also consulting with experts with the State of Minnesota on task forces for higher education. The planning explicitly recognizes the need for flexibility. At the individual level, students, faculty, and staff need options based on their underlying vulnerabilities or those of their families. At the system level, we need flexibility among our diverse campuses, recognizing the need for variations in implementation.  A few recommendations are common across scenarios and domains, including:

• Daily self-monitoring of temperature and other health indicators.
• Testing when clinically indicated, contact tracing, isolation for those with the disease, and quarantine for those
exposed.
• Cloth masks provided to all students and employees who are on campus and required in specific settings.
• Adjusted classroom capacity levels, dining options, housing density, and gathering sizes based on social distancing
requirements.
• Scheduling of in-person classes extended, potentially to begin earlier and end later, and to include Saturday classes,
to enable an enhanced cleaning routine and reduce density in hallways and buildings.
• Consideration of adjustment of academic calendars, when appropriate, to reduce the travel of students between
campus and their family homes.
• Review and reminder of policies related to students missing classes for bereavement or illness, students requesting
incompletes or withdrawals, and students needing a leave of absence.

[jelloshots4all]

May 13, 2020 11:24:49 GMT -5 haapai said:

May 13, 2020 10:28:23 GMT -5 jelloshots4all said:

My daughter is supposed to take a 3 credit, online class this summer.  I just saw the bill and they want to charge over $1200 for one class!  I told her to talk to her advisor as that price seems ridiculous!!

She might have better options but her advisor might not mention them.  There might be a conflict of interest.

Why does your daughter want to take this course?  Is it something that interests her, something that she has to take over again, or something that she needs to graduate?  If it's the last course that she needs in order to graduate, is taking it in her best interest?  This is a lousy time to graduate and doing so may affect repayment of student loans if she has any. 

Has long ago was the course put online?  Is it subject matter that is well-suited to being taught online or just an emergency work-around that someone threw together to keep tuition flowing? 

Sadly, I don't think that the price is necessarily too high.  That's pretty cheap for three credits of anything from anywhere.  It's much more a question of design and quality than a question of price. 

She needs it to take classes in her major this fall as a Jr.  I'm having her look at other options including the local CC as well as other online options.  Her tuition for a semester is $3750, so $1200 for 1 3 credit class seems high.  I'll pay it if it is the only option, but the price tag was a little shocker. 

As I say that, I was willing to spend $7,000 for her to spend 6 weeks in Europe this summer for classes directly associated with her major. But, so much of that was about the experience of studying in Milan, Paris, London etc. 

[jerseygirl]

In today’s Wall Street journal , Notre Dame and Perdue will have students come to campus for fall semester.
Also an interesting editorial about Falwell and Liberty University
Already had 100,000 online students and allowed 1200 students to come to campus March 16. No students or staff on campus tested positive. Some students (12) originally had symptoms but one graduate student online only and four off campus employees tested positive. Article (editorial) doesn’t mention if any hospitalizations occurred. Assume if any occurred that would be mentioned.
Students did wear masks, social distancing withbexample of removing some computers in a computer lab

Interesting news for so many wondering about all schools, not just colleges
Some discussion about NYC schools staring with summer school with precautions for older teachers and at risk students and teachers. Maybe decreasing numbers in classes - split sessions? Summer school usually has fewer students so maybe a chance to try some scenarios

[jelloshots4all]

I'm glad some are announcing on campuses classes.  Just watched an interview with the President of Notre Dame.  Hopefully they are pooling ideas/recommendations/best practices.  I think I saw a survey that 2/3 of college kids want to go back to campus.

In talking to my daughter who will be a college Jr, she said if it goes to only online she is going to take the semester off.  She did stay on campus with her roommate and some friends whom had been together for all the lockdown (her family unit), and said this semester could be her highest GPA yet, but.  

I'll give her time and the schools time to make decisions and find solutions.  I think she was just emotional in leaving and having quite a few of her friends graduate.  Time will tell

[oped]

I find it hard to trust anyone saying they are definitely on campus this fall, at this point. Now if they are giving the metrics by which they will be on campus that I get. But not knowing what the metrics will be, it seems hard to give a solid on campus at this time...

[Deleted]

Notre Dame is going to start early (Aug 10th I think), skip Fall break and be done by Thanksgiving.  I kind of like this idea myself.  The idea is there aren't thousands leaving campus to wherever and then coming back for another month, and if there is a second wave they'll have them out before it hits with a possibility of another shortened semester in Spring that doesn't start until February. 

[TheHaitian]

May 19, 2020 23:19:19 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Notre Dame is going to start early (Aug 10th I think), skip Fall break and be done by Thanksgiving.  I kind of like this idea myself.  The idea is there aren't thousands leaving campus to wherever and then coming back for another month, and if there is a second wave they'll have them out before it hits with a possibility of another shortened semester in Spring that doesn't start until February. 

I saw that but the issue with that logic is :

- not every kid lives on campus
- not every kid stay in campus from beginning to end (some go home for long weekends and what not).
- the campus or university is not a bubble - the workers / sanitation/ cleaning / professors travel and go home then come back to work.

This approach would be perfect if the university was a bubble, you bubble them in at the beginning of the semester and let them out at the end. The president of the university himself said currently they do not have the capacity to test everyone etc.

I run a store of ~150 people and it is a pain in the ass take everyone temperature once they check in when we all know a fever is not THE sign. Also mask, gloves, etc etc etc.

[Deleted]

May 20, 2020 1:16:00 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

May 19, 2020 23:19:19 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Notre Dame is going to start early (Aug 10th I think), skip Fall break and be done by Thanksgiving.  I kind of like this idea myself.  The idea is there aren't thousands leaving campus to wherever and then coming back for another month, and if there is a second wave they'll have them out before it hits with a possibility of another shortened semester in Spring that doesn't start until February. 

I saw that but the issue with that logic is :

- not every kid lives on campus
- not every kid stay in campus from beginning to end (some go home for long weekends and what not).
- the campus or university is not a bubble - the workers / sanitation/ cleaning / professors travel and go home then come back to work.

This approach would be perfect if the university was a bubble, you bubble them in at the beginning of the semester and let them out at the end. The president of the university himself said currently they do not have the capacity to test everyone etc.

I run a store of ~150 people and it is a pain in the ass take everyone temperature once they check in when we all know a fever is not THE sign. Also mask, gloves, etc etc etc.

I don't think the goal is to keep the students isolated on campus so much as the geographic area.  The vast majority are going to stay within an hours drive of campus all the time...especially in a condensed semester with no breaks.  Sure there might be a few that take long road trips on a weekend, but nothing like what happens over break where thousands climb onto buses and planes and head off to who knows where.  Just look at all the panic when this went down over Spring break?  The school knows what's going on in it's general area.  Here there are practically no cases, and student milling about the counties around town not really a big deal, but you have no control when they head off in mass to the rest of the country/world and then come back.

But, I think the bigger goal is to get them in and out for Fall semester as quickly as possible.  Although nobody knows what's going to happen, most models agree that things die down by August and we have a lull until the winter crud hits and there is another wave of cases.  If you can get them in early and push though the semester before that happens it's a win.  Then you have an extra long winter break to reassess how to handle spring. 

DS's college is having a town hall today at 1 so I'm hoping they at least touch on Fall plans.

[Deleted]

The models only predict "lulls" when people are sheltering in place and wearing PPE. Since few are doing so these days, the expectation is case numbers will be growing all summer and into the fall.

The virus isn't expected to magically disappear this summer. That's Trump bullshit.

There's been a lot of talk lately about the price of a college education and whether students will keep paying outrageous prices for fewer days on campus, less in-person instruction, etc... 

There's also the issue of international students who are often blamed for the higher costs. If the borders stay closed or case numbers continue to rise, I can imagine many of them won't return. 

[Deleted]

Our models in MN have nothing to do with Trump.  The MN dept of health and university put them together and right now are showing the peak between June 29th and July 13th, then dropping off significantly.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

May 13, 2020 11:30:23 GMT -5 wvugurl26 said:

I don't think it's usually a good deal to do 1 or 2 classes at a time. When I was in undergrad and grad school the price for full time was the same whether you took 12 or 20 credits in the semester. The only difference was classes with fees such as science labs or computer classes.

In 2011, my work paid $1600 for me to take a 3 credit business ethics course from University of Maryland's online branch. That did reflect out of state rates. A year earlier I paid $350 for an online 3 credit business communication course from a branch of my alma mater. The flagship itself was very slow to offer online courses so I took it from a branch in my hometown.

It’s not.  College tuition tends to be cheaper the more credits you take.  When I was taking CAD classes at the local tech college, the more credits you took, the cheaper it cost per credit hour.  9 credit hours seemed to be the cheap spot where anything more was gravy.

When I was working on my doctorate, I was doing it the most expensive way possible....6 credits at a time.  However, my tuition was included in my employee benefits so I didn’t care.  I really did have a heart attack the first few bills I received when I was looking at a $5000 bill for 6 credit hours.  The bills had to get caught up with the paperwork on file.  That $5000 also included about $1000 in various fees.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

May 20, 2020 11:09:59 GMT -5 @shastasnewlife said:

The models only predict "lulls" when people are sheltering in place and wearing PPE. Since few are doing so these days, the expectation is case numbers will be growing all summer and into the fall.

The virus isn't expected to magically disappear this summer. That's Trump bullshit.

There's been a lot of talk lately about the price of a college education and whether students will keep paying outrageous prices for fewer days on campus, less in-person instruction, etc... 

There's also the issue of international students who are often blamed for the higher costs. If the borders stay closed or case numbers continue to rise, I can imagine many of them won't return. 

International students are gravy to a university, they don’t cost more.  The tuition they pay is considerably higher than even out of state students.  

I hated how we used international students in order to boost the bottom line in the department.  They got absolutely NO benefits (their credits were useless in the program we enrolled them in), but paid 2x in tuition.