tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Dec 3, 2019 10:19:41 GMT -5
You may think you are arguing against "the liberals" here. You are in fact arguing against logic. Rarely a winning strategy. Okay, NEVER a winning strategy. In your opinion Which part? Either way that was a silly response. First, the futility of arguing against logic is not "my opinion." That is simply fact. People's opinions can be clouded. Logic is not. Second, the initial claim in this arc was that Trump calling white nationalists "very fine people" was untrue because he actually said there were very fine people on both sides. Even the denial itself acknowledges the truth of the accusation. "On both sides" INCLUDES both sides. The next claim was that Trump was referring to the people on both sides who were NOT white nationalists. It was a white nationalist rally! On one side there were NO white nationalists. They were there in opposition because the idea is offensive to them and antithetical to American ideals. On the other side were the white nationalists (white supremacists? Neo-Nazis?) If there were any there who were not white nationalist they were not marching or supporting so not considered on that side. Those would be observers, not participants. So yes, the other side was entirely white nationalists or similar. Trump calling both sides very fine people of course meant that he called white nationalists very fine people. It cannot be otherwise. This is not a difficult concept. I know ednkris is too far gone to see it. I hope the same is not true of you.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 3, 2019 11:37:17 GMT -5
The same can be said of you. Nothing Trump ever does is good enough. People have been bitching because queenie lost for three years now. She thinks she’s going to come out of the woodwork because the dem candidates suck big time and win this time. If she manages, so be it. I survived Obama and I can survive her. But the economy and jobs are doing well. Of course all of that is due to Obama. Right? Btw, did Obama ever donate any of his salary?
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gambler
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Post by gambler on Dec 3, 2019 11:45:29 GMT -5
I do not believe in mixed races either put a horse up against a car in a 1 mile run horse is going to lose every time
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 3, 2019 11:56:06 GMT -5
Which part? Either way that was a silly response.
First, the futility of arguing against logic is not "my opinion." That is simply fact. People's opinions can be clouded. Logic is not. Second, the initial claim in this arc was that Trump calling white nationalists "very fine people" was untrue because he actually said there were very fine people on both sides. Even the denial itself acknowledges the truth of the accusation. "On both sides" INCLUDES both sides. The next claim was that Trump was referring to the people on both sides who were NOT white nationalists. It was a white nationalist rally! On one side there were NO white nationalists. They were there in opposition because the idea is offensive to them and antithetical to American ideals. On the other side were the white nationalists (white supremacists? Neo-Nazis?) If there were any there who were not white nationalist they were not marching or supporting so not considered on that side. Those would be observers, not participants. So yes, the other side was entirely white nationalists or similar. Trump calling both sides very fine people of course meant that he called white nationalists very fine people. It cannot be otherwise. This is not a difficult concept. I know ednkris is too far gone to see it. I hope the same is not true of you. The futility of arguing against logic is definitely your opinion. I wish it were fact...but it's not. You said it's "NEVER" a winning strategy...arguing against logic and instead trying to simply convince people that you are right even without a shred of logic to your argument is OFTEN a winning strategy. I mean current politics is BASED off of ignoring logic and trying to win anyways...and it often works! I will also point out, logic is often clouded, because logic is based on premises...which are often flawed. So logic can still be sound (to your point) but also still ridiculously incorrect due to the premises being incorrect. Also, logic itself can be incorrect, or incorrectly applied. That's how we get to "God is love" "love is blind" "Sammy Davis Junior is blind" "Sammy Davis Junior is God"...that is logic...it's just bad logic. There is no such thing as "logic" as a standalone to argue against, it is always against a specific logic, and a specific logic can often be both objectively incorrect, or simply clouded by opinion. Arguing against logic could therefore be a winning strategy if either "winning is decided by something other than logical argument" which it often is...or arguing that the logic being applied is incorrect. In terms of politics...the former seems more prevalent, often disguised as the latter. The Socratic method is entirely based off of arguing against "logic" in order to prove someone else's logic incorrect and your logic correct (or at least to challenge the idea of someone's logic being correct).
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Dec 3, 2019 12:01:14 GMT -5
Did Obama grift or extort the taxpayers for tens (or even hundreds) of millions of dollars? Trump has.
The economy and jobs are continuing to do well, such as it is, in the continuation of a long run which did indeed start soon after Obama took office. They are not doing well because of Trump. His tax cut plan did help the stock market even though it was bad for the country, but the gains under Trump still do not equal the equivalent time periods under Obama. Even with that, the stock market is not the economy. A number of Trump's ideas have harmed different segments of our economy, but as long as only "the little people" get hurt he's fine with it. The destruction being wreaked on the rest of our system and institutions, not to mention our place as world leader, just makes it worse. He is a disaster and not worthy of anyone's vote. And I'm not even a Democrat!
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 3, 2019 12:14:45 GMT -5
The same can be said of you. Nothing Trump ever does is good enough. People have been bitching because queenie lost for three years now. She thinks she’s going to come out of the woodwork because the dem candidates suck big time and win this time. If she manages, so be it. I survived Obama and I can survive her. But the economy and jobs are doing well. Of course all of that is due to Obama. Right? Btw, did Obama ever donate any of his salary? Lol! Did Obama spend anywhere near as much of taxpayer money on his golf trips? Trump, as of October 2019, incurred around $109 million in taxpayer spending related to his golf outings, which is close to the amount of money a president would make if he were being paid $400,000 annually for 278.5 years.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Dec 3, 2019 12:15:32 GMT -5
Which part? Either way that was a silly response.
First, the futility of arguing against logic is not "my opinion." That is simply fact. People's opinions can be clouded. Logic is not. Second, the initial claim in this arc was that Trump calling white nationalists "very fine people" was untrue because he actually said there were very fine people on both sides. Even the denial itself acknowledges the truth of the accusation. "On both sides" INCLUDES both sides. The next claim was that Trump was referring to the people on both sides who were NOT white nationalists. It was a white nationalist rally! On one side there were NO white nationalists. They were there in opposition because the idea is offensive to them and antithetical to American ideals. On the other side were the white nationalists (white supremacists? Neo-Nazis?) If there were any there who were not white nationalist they were not marching or supporting so not considered on that side. Those would be observers, not participants. So yes, the other side was entirely white nationalists or similar. Trump calling both sides very fine people of course meant that he called white nationalists very fine people. It cannot be otherwise. This is not a difficult concept. I know ednkris is too far gone to see it. I hope the same is not true of you. The futility of arguing against logic is definitely your opinion. I wish it were fact...but it's not. You said it's "NEVER" a winning strategy...arguing against logic and instead trying to simply convince people that you are right even without a shred of logic to your argument is OFTEN a winning strategy. I mean current politics is BASED off of ignoring logic and trying to win anyways...and it often works! I will also point out, logic is often clouded, because logic is based on premises...which are often flawed. So logic can still be sound (to your point) but also still ridiculously incorrect due to the premises being incorrect. Also, logic itself can be incorrect, or incorrectly applied. That's how we get to "God is love" "love is blind" "Sammy Davis Junior is blind" "Sammy Davis Junior is God"...that is logic...it's just bad logic. There is no such thing as "logic" as a standalone to argue against, it is always against a specific logic, and a specific logic can often be both objectively incorrect, or simply clouded by opinion. Arguing against logic could therefore be a winning strategy if either "winning is decided by something other than logical argument" which it often is...or arguing that the logic being applied is incorrect. In terms of politics...the former seems more prevalent, often disguised as the latter. The Socratic method is entirely based off of arguing against "logic" in order to prove someone else's logic incorrect and your logic correct (or at least to challenge the idea of someone's logic being correct). I didn't think it necessary to stipulate that I was speaking about sound arguments where the truth of the premises is a given. In the example there were simple claims made, and the response was based on those. Next, I would not argue that people can be convinced by all sorts of ridiculous things. We see it everywhere every day, and certainly here, but that was again not the context of the post. I would also argue that in the political arena it is not "arguing against logic" that wins. It is appealing to emotion and persuading people to discard logic entirely that has unfortunate success.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 3, 2019 12:25:41 GMT -5
The same can be said of you. Nothing Trump ever does is good enough. People have been bitching because queenie lost for three years now. She thinks she’s going to come out of the woodwork because the dem candidates suck big time and win this time. If she manages, so be it. I survived Obama and I can survive her. But the economy and jobs are doing well. Of course all of that is due to Obama. Right? Btw, did Obama ever donate any of his salary? Trump Golf Count Cost Breakdown: AF1 flights to Mar-a-Lago: $47,288,000 AF1 flights to Bedminster: $18,375,500 Costs to Bedminster, Palm Beach: $17,437,192 Cost to guard coast off Mar-a-Lago: $21,476,000 Luxury car rental in Turnberry, Scotland: $1,260,139 Cost of stay at Trump Turnberry, Scotland: $68,800 Total cost of staying in Doonbeg, Ireland: $3,600,000 Total Cost: $109,505,631 www.snopes.com/fact-check/278-years-golf/That's YOUR money he's spending on golf. $400,000 in salary donation is a drop in the bucket.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Dec 3, 2019 12:29:07 GMT -5
Is there any actual evidence that he had donated his salary? Or is it like that million he said he’d give to veterans?
At any rate, the taxpayers would be far better off if he kept his salary and oaid for his golf.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Dec 3, 2019 12:35:36 GMT -5
The same can be said of you. Nothing Trump ever does is good enough. People have been bitching because queenie lost for three years now. She thinks she’s going to come out of the woodwork because the dem candidates suck big time and win this time. If she manages, so be it. I survived Obama and I can survive her. But the economy and jobs are doing well. Of course all of that is due to Obama. Right? Btw, did Obama ever donate any of his salary? Lol! Did Obama spend anywhere near as much of taxpayer money on his golf trips? Trump, as of October 2019, incurred around $109 million in taxpayer spending related to his golf outings, which is close to the amount of money a president would make if he were being paid $400,000 annually for 278.5 years. You left out "at his own businesses"
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Dec 3, 2019 12:38:00 GMT -5
400k to the federal government is a fraction of a teardrop in the ocean. It might sound good, but it is nothing.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 3, 2019 12:48:10 GMT -5
The futility of arguing against logic is definitely your opinion. I wish it were fact...but it's not. You said it's "NEVER" a winning strategy...arguing against logic and instead trying to simply convince people that you are right even without a shred of logic to your argument is OFTEN a winning strategy. I mean current politics is BASED off of ignoring logic and trying to win anyways...and it often works! I will also point out, logic is often clouded, because logic is based on premises...which are often flawed. So logic can still be sound (to your point) but also still ridiculously incorrect due to the premises being incorrect. Also, logic itself can be incorrect, or incorrectly applied. That's how we get to "God is love" "love is blind" "Sammy Davis Junior is blind" "Sammy Davis Junior is God"...that is logic...it's just bad logic. There is no such thing as "logic" as a standalone to argue against, it is always against a specific logic, and a specific logic can often be both objectively incorrect, or simply clouded by opinion. Arguing against logic could therefore be a winning strategy if either "winning is decided by something other than logical argument" which it often is...or arguing that the logic being applied is incorrect. In terms of politics...the former seems more prevalent, often disguised as the latter. The Socratic method is entirely based off of arguing against "logic" in order to prove someone else's logic incorrect and your logic correct (or at least to challenge the idea of someone's logic being correct). I didn't think it necessary to stipulate that I was speaking about sound arguments where the truth of the premises is a given. In the example there were simple claims made, and the response was based on those. Next, I would not argue that people can be convinced by all sorts of ridiculous things. We see it everywhere every day, and certainly here, but that was again not the context of the post. I would also argue that in the political arena it is not "arguing against logic" that wins. It is appealing to emotion and persuading people to discard logic entirely that has unfortunate success. What is "a given" to you is not likely to be a given to someone else arguing against you though. Nearly everyone who tries to make a logical argument picks a premise they presume to be a given, and the argument occurs when others disagree. The entire basis of arguing against logic is either attacking the premise or attacking whether the argument is sound. And in MANY cases, it seems to be arguing against something that one person thinks is so blatantly obvious it is a given. I guess I would have called the political arena to be "arguing against logic with emotion".
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Dec 3, 2019 13:01:15 GMT -5
Is there any actual evidence that he had donated his salary? Or is it like that million he said he’d give to veterans? At any rate, the taxpayers would be far better off if he kept his salary and oaid for his golf. He does donate his salary to various government agencies. Although there has been some mis-reporting of the actual receivers, he has donated it each quarter.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 3, 2019 13:11:42 GMT -5
Is there any actual evidence that he had donated his salary? Or is it like that million he said he’d give to veterans? At any rate, the taxpayers would be far better off if he kept his salary and oaid for his golf. He does donate his salary to various government agencies. Although there has been some mis-reporting of the actual receivers, he has donated it each quarter. Wouldn't it be better if he kept his measly $400,000 and stopped spending millions and millions and millions of taxpayer dollars on golf?
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Dec 3, 2019 13:51:15 GMT -5
He does donate his salary to various government agencies. Although there has been some mis-reporting of the actual receivers, he has donated it each quarter. Wouldn't it be better if he kept his measly $400,000 and stopped spending millions and millions and millions of taxpayer dollars on golf?Certainly it would be better for the taxpayer. This way, he deducts the measly $400K, and adds millions to his pockets right from the taxpayer. And his base just brays "He's working for free"... Um, no he isn't.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 3, 2019 14:46:16 GMT -5
400k to the federal government is a fraction of a teardrop in the ocean. It might sound good, but it is nothing. It’s not nothing to the charity that received it
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on Dec 3, 2019 18:57:54 GMT -5
moving to politics, as this has really gone south even for ymot.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 3, 2019 19:47:38 GMT -5
The same can be said of you. Nothing Trump ever does is good enough. People have been bitching because queenie lost for three years now. She thinks she’s going to come out of the woodwork because the dem candidates suck big time and win this time. If she manages, so be it. I survived Obama and I can survive her. But the economy and jobs are doing well. Of course all of that is due to Obama. Right? Btw, did Obama ever donate any of his salary? this is an interesting assertion. I have been searching my mind for things that Trump has done that are BETTER than what Obama did. jobs? nope. Obama added more jobs in his last 3 years than Trump did in his first 3 years. economic growth is also basically identical.
so, what specific thing has Trump done that is better than what Obama did?
I don't mean that to be juvenile, I am genuinely interested in your reply.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 3, 2019 19:50:47 GMT -5
400k to the federal government is a fraction of a teardrop in the ocean. It might sound good, but it is nothing. it is also a fraction of what he has made since leaving office, which shows that he could have done better by doing something else.
it's interesting that people fixate on that $400k. admittedly it is more money than I have ever made in a year. but it is nothing to a 1%er.
nothing.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Dec 3, 2019 20:00:32 GMT -5
400k to the federal government is a fraction of a teardrop in the ocean. It might sound good, but it is nothing. It’s not nothing to the charity that received it He is not giving it to charity. He is donating it to government agencies of his choosing. I am sure they are happy to get an extra $100k, but I doubt it has a huge impact on an agency like the National Parks Service.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 3, 2019 20:42:56 GMT -5
It’s not nothing to the charity that received it He is not giving it to charity. He is donating it to government agencies of his choosing. I am sure they are happy to get an extra $100k, but I doubt it has a huge impact on an agency like the National Parks Service. Is it going to the workers at the NPS who lost money during Trump's government shutdown? You know, the shutdown that happened when Trump went into full toddler mode because he couldn't get money for his wall? The wall Mexico was going to pay for?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Dec 4, 2019 12:54:35 GMT -5
He is not giving it to charity. He is donating it to government agencies of his choosing. I am sure they are happy to get an extra $100k, but I doubt it has a huge impact on an agency like the National Parks Service. Is it going to the workers at the NPS who lost money during Trump's government shutdown? You know, the shutdown that happened when Trump went into full toddler mode because he couldn't get money for his wall? The wall Mexico was going to pay for? I don't know if there is any data on what they do with it. I doubt it can be given to employees outside of the official government policies. In general, the individual departments don't have a lot of flexibility there. I guess they could do a project, but it sounds like a pretty small project. Our budget is in the tens of millions, and 100k could be spent without making a difference. I think most departments are in the billions, or maybe tens of billions. Good for Trump for keeping one of his promises. It does not force me to forgive him for ignoring the entire intelligence community and denying any foreign meddling in our elections. He was investigated and they did not find evidence that he was involved, so why isnt he addressing the meddling the investigation did find. All other things aside, having secure elections is the most important issue to the survival of the country. Once we lose control of our elections, we are in big trouble. We can survive everything else, but that is the foundation.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Dec 4, 2019 17:10:32 GMT -5
The same can be said of you. Nothing Trump ever does is good enough. People have been bitching because queenie lost for three years now. She thinks she’s going to come out of the woodwork because the dem candidates suck big time and win this time. If she manages, so be it. I survived Obama and I can survive her. But the economy and jobs are doing well. Of course all of that is due to Obama. Right? Btw, did Obama ever donate any of his salary? I think Trump donated his salary as a PR move because he knew he'd be taking bigger advantage of the American taxpayer than any President prior to him. This is because he has the golf clubs he can take his trips to and even use his own property Mar Lago as a "secondary whitehouse". I'd be more impressed with him donating his salary, if he wasn't racking up personal expenses on the taxpayers much much larger than Obama and possibly any President prior to him.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Dec 4, 2019 19:28:22 GMT -5
I have witnessed the praise from numerous Repo-Cons that he is donating his salary. Those same folks are pure cricket on his grifting the taxpayers.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 4, 2019 20:56:32 GMT -5
I have witnessed the praise from numerous Repo-Cons that he is donating his salary. Those same folks are pure cricket on his grifting the taxpayers. if donating $400k would get him out of office, I would seriously entertain that write-off.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Dec 4, 2019 21:48:07 GMT -5
I have witnessed the praise from numerous Repo-Cons that he is donating his salary. Those same folks are pure cricket on his grifting the taxpayers. Just more proof of their hypocrisy
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 5, 2019 15:04:10 GMT -5
Trump is cutting 700,000 people off the SNAP program.
That should pay nicely for his golf outings.
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Dec 5, 2019 16:13:14 GMT -5
Did Obama grift or extort the taxpayers for tens (or even hundreds) of millions of dollars? Trump has
Does anyone remember Solyndra?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 5, 2019 16:18:50 GMT -5
Did Obama grift or extort the taxpayers for tens (or even hundreds) of millions of dollars? Trump hasDoes anyone remember Solyndra? I was not aware of any benefit that accrued to Obama for this effort.
are you?
and yes, that is the difference for me.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 5, 2019 16:27:54 GMT -5
Did Obama grift or extort the taxpayers for tens (or even hundreds) of millions of dollars? Trump hasDoes anyone remember Solyndra? Did Obama personally gain from Solyndra?
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