Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Mar 28, 2019 19:29:49 GMT -5
This thread explains much more than this one incident of the issues Sam has. Other than that, I will let Sam speak for herself. I understand that but I am approaching it as someone that has had a rough patch in his marriage and decided to give it a go. When you decide to truly give your marriage a chance (if you do); you also have to learn to slowly let go of the past and give the relationship a chance; without holding on to past hurt. Obviously the being drunk and high triggered something in her or he did something. But my question is : it is being looked at objectively. Is she seeing it from the wife that is hurt and resentful of her husband and this is one more time too much? Or from the new view and new beginning? Did they discuss the use of alcohol and drugs? Did she make her point clear about her expectations? The guy has been trying, he has made the effort and put in some work. Off course that does not wipe the slate clean but how can they move forward if everything he has done wrong in his past keep being thrown in his face? That is why I ask: did he do something wrong? Or did this trigger something in her? Is being drunk or smoking pot a definitive deal breaker for her? Also expecting the person to be 100% perfect because you are giving them a chance is unrealistic, they may fuck up here and there. Discuss it, let them know how you feel and why and work it out. But again that is because in my book/ my relationship being drunk and smoking pot is not a “deal breaker”... is it for her? And did he know? After everything she's been through, she doesn't need to look at anything objectively any more. Feelings aren't objective, and feelings have everything to do with marriage. If all there is is bad feelings left, then there really isn't any point in continuing.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Mar 28, 2019 21:27:36 GMT -5
I will make it clear for those that may have missed it: nowhere did I tell the OP to leave nor stay with her husband... I simply asked a question: why this time is was one time too much? Why this time it ignited such strong feelings?
No 2 relationships are the same and no 2 marriage are the same; it will not be my place to tell my daughter wether to stay or leave her husband. I would ask her what she felt was important to HER? What would make HER happy and what she felt was the best decision for HER.
Because there is saying I learned young : La société critique toujours mais ne donne jamais. Translation; society criticize always but never gives. So yes people will be quick to say leave your husband, run... but when she is by herself raising 3 kids where are you guys going to be? When her kids cry for their dad where will you be?
I never said he was perfect, heck I can bring up post in this same thread where I dogged him and said he was clueless , and what not. But he has been trying, he has made efforts so I am asking if there is more to the actual story I am missing.
Again not my monkeys and not my circus, whatever decision the OP makes will not disturb my life. I simply asked : why? Before I come to any conclusions.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Mar 28, 2019 21:35:48 GMT -5
It's not about the drinking in isolation. Carl, you only equate a safe partner as one that doesn't beat his wife. I wonder. If your daughter came to you and said.."Gee dad, I can't trust my husband. He's not safe for me. I cannot be vulnerable with him. I cannot count on him...Sure, he's put together a few good months after years of being untrustworthy.." Would you tell her "Suck it up butter cup? He doesn't beat you. He's been good for a few months. Clearly he's changed. Get over it."
Would you tell your daughter that she MUST stay with a partner that is not safe for her? Or might you say "Kiddo, you are worth a safe partner. Don't settle." Some of us know our worth, and that we deserve a safe partner, and don't have to settle for whatever scraps are thrown our way. And I really hope that you would teach this to your daughter.
I don’t care for hypothetical so let’s do this: you look at your life and your choices and tell me Why? You have said yourself your husband addiction put your life at risk? Why you stay? You have admitted yourself his last slip was what? 5 years ago? Why did you stay? Why did you have another kid with him? Why did you continue to trust this man that can actually take out your life with his addiction? Yet you continue to trust him, be with him, raise your kids with him... why? Why is he worth forgiveness and absolution and not the OP husband? Why are his sins more forgivable than the OP husband? You have 3 daughters... what would you tell them? What would you say if they brought a carbon copy of “your husband” home? I am not the OP and I will support whatever decision she makes. But I am asking simply WHY because there is no turning back, there is no unrigging the bell... Why was this infraction the ONE? Why? Was she just waiting for a slip up to give herself permission to leave? Ok no problem... She has every reason to leave him, it is her right, her life. He has given more than enough cause for her to walk away, never look back and raise her kids. I just don’t believe the coming home drunk and being high is all there is to it after all the shit he has pulled/put her through and this was the line too far to cross.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Mar 28, 2019 21:38:51 GMT -5
I understand that but I am approaching it as someone that has had a rough patch in his marriage and decided to give it a go. When you decide to truly give your marriage a chance (if you do); you also have to learn to slowly let go of the past and give the relationship a chance; without holding on to past hurt. Obviously the being drunk and high triggered something in her or he did something. But my question is : it is being looked at objectively. Is she seeing it from the wife that is hurt and resentful of her husband and this is one more time too much? Or from the new view and new beginning? Did they discuss the use of alcohol and drugs? Did she make her point clear about her expectations? The guy has been trying, he has made the effort and put in some work. Off course that does not wipe the slate clean but how can they move forward if everything he has done wrong in his past keep being thrown in his face? That is why I ask: did he do something wrong? Or did this trigger something in her? Is being drunk or smoking pot a definitive deal breaker for her? Also expecting the person to be 100% perfect because you are giving them a chance is unrealistic, they may fuck up here and there. Discuss it, let them know how you feel and why and work it out. But again that is because in my book/ my relationship being drunk and smoking pot is not a “deal breaker”... is it for her? And did he know? After everything she's been through, she doesn't need to look at anything objectively any more. Feelings aren't objective, and feelings have everything to do with marriage. If all there is is bad feelings left, then there really isn't any point in continuing. This is NOT a movie, this is NOT fiction, this is NOT a fairy tale... this is real life. We are not rehearsing for the real thing : this is it. So I sure would hope that anyone that would be making a decision that would alter the course of the life of not 1 or 2 but 5 people make that decision based on more than just “feelings”.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Mar 28, 2019 21:49:56 GMT -5
Sam this will be my last post on the subject and I will recuse myself from your thread ...
This is your life, this is your decision and I am not trying to alter it in any way. I am just asking you to be true to yourself, your gut, and your intuition...
Talk it over with your therapist ... why did this one event bother you so much? Why did it bother you so much that it triggered such a reaction in you and made you decide this was it; divorce it was?
Once you figure it out you will have your answer. I support you and any decision you make and I do believe 100%, to my core... that your husband does not deserve you, you are too good for him and he has taken advantage of the situation and of you for far too long.
I also know divorce is not easy and the prospect of the unknown is scarier than the reality you know. One thing I can agree with that everyone has said is that you are a strong, smart, resilient and amazing woman/mother and you will move on doing greats things and enjoying a full life without someone dragging you down.
So in conclusion I re-iterate that I fully support you whatever decision you make : stay or go; and that you are certain you are making the right decision and for the right reason(s). This is your life, you will have to live with any consequences that comes with the decision you make: make sure it is YOUR decision.
Wish you nothing but a bless and full life.
Carl
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 28, 2019 21:52:57 GMT -5
Speaking from my perspective it wasn't this one time DH screwed up.
Life would be so much easier if I could take each situation as one individual incident.
That's not how it works. It's cumulative and there is a moment when it finally sinks in the type of person your spouse is.
Given the other issues such as conflict with religious ideology and untreated mental illness I'm guessing Sam just had her epiphany.
It's a cycle. I cannot excuse a relapse it has to be all or nothing.
I am giving him a shot at recovery. If he slips he's no longer recovered period. We're back to square one.
Maybe he can make it to recovered. Maybe he can't. I have the right to decide I'm not staking another 14 years on testing the theory at any time.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Mar 28, 2019 22:32:37 GMT -5
After everything she's been through, she doesn't need to look at anything objectively any more. Feelings aren't objective, and feelings have everything to do with marriage. If all there is is bad feelings left, then there really isn't any point in continuing. This is NOT a movie, this is NOT fiction, this is NOT a fairy tale... this is real life. We are not rehearsing for the real thing : this is it. So I sure would hope that anyone that would be making a decision that would alter the course of the life of not 1 or 2 but 5 people make that decision based on more than just “feelings”. and this is the only life Sam gets. So why should she keep spending it with someone who can't treat her well for more than a couple months at a time? Who can't let her be Sam and wants to force her into a role she doesn't believe in, doesn't feel comfortable in, and just plain doesn't want?
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justme
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Post by justme on Mar 28, 2019 22:58:48 GMT -5
I know Carl said he's leaving the thread, but here's a decent analogy. Say an employee has been fucking up for a long time, but they've been your employee for longer and you remember when they were good. Not doing something immediately fireable like stealing money, but stuff you could have fired him for. So you sit him down for a PIP and he goes on about how much he loves job and will totally change. And he did, for a few months, and then he fucks up again in the same way. Do you shrug and go well he hasn't done this shit in 3 months so we good. Or do you point out the PIP and fire his ass?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 29, 2019 6:59:34 GMT -5
It’s hard either way. Hopefully this time has been used to get financially stable as much as possible. To make sure joint debts are paid off and there’s savings for and a place to go to live with security and neighbors.
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oped
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Post by oped on Mar 29, 2019 7:24:48 GMT -5
So. I completely wanted the OP to leave when this thread started. Said as an outsider, with no say or stake in her life...
BUT. I'm going to take Carl's side to a degree here. I definitely understand where he is coming from. No one is perfect. None of us make the right decisions all of the time. If you commit to work on your marriage and perfection is the metric you are going to use, then you are going to fail. It is perfectly ok to be done with it all. It is perfectly ok to not want to continue. BUT, if your contention is that you are committed to giving something a solid chance, then perfection can't be the expectation.
I'm ready to jump on the, fuck that shit, you out of there band wagon. BECAUSE... I have been oriented that way since the beginning. because basically my only role in this scenario is to wait for the opportunity to reinforce my position. he fucked up, now you know, go...
But that isn't how someone inside the relationship can act IF their orientation actually was to fix the marriage. I think what Carl is pointing towards is that Sam needs to decide what her orientation is... if she is focused on out in her core it is perfectly fine and understandable. But she needs to acknowledge that because ultimately it isn't fair to say you are in and then wait for every screw up big or little and use them as rationale. No rationale needed. If it is not working for you any more, then move towards than ends. BUT if she is oriented towards keeping her marriage, then she does need to expect and deal with setbacks because they will happen. No one is perfect.
And Sam knows or should know we support her in whatever she decides. And that ultimately it is her decision to do what is best for her and her kids.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 29, 2019 7:33:48 GMT -5
I don't think she should base her decision off one incident either. But like I said in these situations there comes a moment when it all crashes down and you realize who it is you actually married. It SUCKS, it REALLY sucks and at that moment I had to question everything. Yeah I had said I was going to commit but when he relapsed it really hit home what I had signed myself up for. Apparently I understood in theory and could make the right sounds, reality was much more jarring.
It does not make me a bad person if I had decided that "one slip up" changed my mind on working it out. You guys get a snapshot of what is going on, I've been living it for 14 years. It's not looking for an excuse to flip my decision and not honor my commitment. It's realizing I could be facing another 14 years of this roller coaster. You can't know for sure till it happens.
Sam's been married 10 years. It's not "one slip up" and she has her excuse to leave. It's 10 years against a couple months, a relapse and realizing what it is "recovery" is going to actually entail. She has every right to decide she doesn't want to be by his side while he does it.
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seriousthistime
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Post by seriousthistime on Mar 29, 2019 8:12:49 GMT -5
I don't think she should base her decision off one incident either. But like I said in these situations there comes a moment when it all crashes down and you realize who it is you actually married. It SUCKS, it REALLY sucks and at that moment I had to question everything. Yeah I had said I was going to commit but when he relapsed it really hit home what I had signed myself up for. Apparently I understood in theory and could make the right sounds, reality was much more jarring. It does not make me a bad person if I had decided that "one slip up" changed my mind on working it out. You guys get a snapshot of what is going on, I've been living it for 14 years. It's not looking for an excuse to flip my decision and not honor my commitment. It's realizing I could be facing another 14 years of this roller coaster. You can't know for sure till it happens.
Sam's been married 10 years. It's not "one slip up" and she has her excuse to leave. It's 10 years against a couple months, a relapse and realizing what it is "recovery" is going to actually entail. She has every right to decide she doesn't want to be by his side while he does it.Exactly. At some point in many relationships comes the moment when you realize it's not just a bunch of isolated incidents; instead, you're looking at spending the rest of your life in a certain way. You can decide the good outweighs the bad and accept it for what it is, or decide you don't want to spend the rest of your life that way.
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WholeLottaNothin
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Post by WholeLottaNothin on Mar 29, 2019 8:24:36 GMT -5
Lost-2-Water - How are you doing?
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Mar 29, 2019 8:34:54 GMT -5
After everything she's been through, she doesn't need to look at anything objectively any more. Feelings aren't objective, and feelings have everything to do with marriage. If all there is is bad feelings left, then there really isn't any point in continuing. This is NOT a movie, this is NOT fiction, this is NOT a fairy tale... this is real life. We are not rehearsing for the real thing : this is it. So I sure would hope that anyone that would be making a decision that would alter the course of the life of not 1 or 2 but 5 people make that decision based on more than just “feelings”. Let me be clear-i am mostly against divorce. I feel like people throw that option around way too easily these days--including you. From what I've read from Sam over the years, I feel things are way too gone with her husband to come back happily from. She's delaying the inevitable by trying to be objective, and giving him more chances than he deserves really. I understand why, as the big D with 3 kids in tow is a big fucking deal. But she still sounds miserable, and her feelings in all this still matter, like a whole lot. She's putting her own feelings aside to give him more chances, and I never thought it would end well, but I guess that's what she needed for closure. Life is too short to put off happiness for too long.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Mar 29, 2019 8:36:19 GMT -5
I know Carl said he's leaving the thread, but here's a decent analogy. Say an employee has been fucking up for a long time, but they've been your employee for longer and you remember when they were good. Not doing something immediately fireable like stealing money, but stuff you could have fired him for. So you sit him down for a PIP and he goes on about how much he loves job and will totally change. And he did, for a few months, and then he fucks up again in the same way. Do you shrug and go well he hasn't done this shit in 3 months so we good. Or do you point out the PIP and fire his ass? I was thinking similarly along the lines of a business partnership. Is this the kind of partnership you would seek, or the kind you'd try to get out of as quickly as possible?
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Mar 29, 2019 10:01:01 GMT -5
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Mar 30, 2019 23:25:53 GMT -5
He came home and had no recollection of how he got here.
He had driven.
Its irresponsible at best. He could have injured himself or someone else. I've had 2 uncles die as the result of drunk drivers (one was a driver; one was hit by a drunk driver). I have zero patience for that shit. If he'd have called an Uber I would be way less upset.
I let him have it the next day. He apologized profusely and tried to wash the patio that he threw up on. He needs to rent a pressure washer and finish the job. I'm NOT doing it.
We were amicable. We are still there. But that's about it. And he knows it.
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justme
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Post by justme on Mar 30, 2019 23:33:23 GMT -5
Drove drunk and high and threw up on your porch (and waited until the next day to clean it)? Oh he's lucky he's not dead.
You're a saint to have not at minimum rubbed his nose in the throwup like a dog.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 31, 2019 7:41:43 GMT -5
He came home and had no recollection of how he got here. He had driven. Its irresponsible at best. He could have injured himself or someone else. I've had 2 uncles die as the result of drunk drivers (one was a driver; one was hit by a drunk driver). I have zero patience for that shit. If he'd have called an Uber I would be way less upset. I let him have it the next day. He apologized profusely and tried to wash the patio that he threw up on. He needs to rent a pressure washer and finish the job. I'm NOT doing it. We were amicable. We are still there. But that's about it. And he knows it. 😢 for you and 🤬 for him.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Mar 31, 2019 11:59:03 GMT -5
Sam- I am sorry. What are your pros for staying. It is sad but right now I am working with a Pro and Con list for staying vs leaving. At this point the pro list is still longer, and most of the cons (things that are missing) I can get else where and from other realtionships that I have. But from what I am reading it seems like your con list is longer.
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Mar 31, 2019 16:56:11 GMT -5
Sam- I am sorry. What are your pros for staying. It is sad but right now I am working with a Pro and Con list for staying vs leaving. At this point the pro list is still longer, and most of the cons (things that are missing) I can get else where and from other realtionships that I have. But from what I am reading it seems like your con list is longer. Honestly, it's the fact that he is trying to change and has made good strides there, especially where the kids are concerned. It's also a lot cheaper to run one household vs two. I couldn't keep Aly or Jaydon in their school on my own. I knew there would be hiccups, and there have been. That one just put me over the edge.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Mar 31, 2019 17:51:06 GMT -5
I can understand that. For me the thought of getting YDD up early enough to drop her off at a before school program and picking her afterwards, cleaning on the weekends and at night, making dinner during the week taking care of the thing he does do just seems more overwhelming they dealing with his guilt trips, cold shoulder, not talking to me ect... I am not sure either of us are in love with the other, but we still make pretty good partners in the parenting and home keeping aspects. Kind of makes me think what an old time arrange marriage would have been liked. Add in the fact that I have A living in my basement, I at least have someone to go talk to, laugh with, deal with the day stuff.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Mar 31, 2019 23:33:14 GMT -5
We've come to the conclusion that likely the easiest thing would be to remain married but have DH rent a small apartment for DH and just have him go there at night once the younger two are asleep, and then just come over the next day if he's not working, or straight to work on the days he works.
We don't have enough bedrooms/finished basement to do an in-house separation, and moving to a bigger house for 7/8 years doesn't seem prudent. I don't even know if divorcing would really even make sense. I'd still need to carry everyone on my health insurance. I'd still be supporting DH. We'd still need to tag team parent. I'd still need to work two jobs.
We've both independently come to the conclusion that I cannot live with a dry drunk for the rest of my life. My husband is almost 44. Yet, I'm having similarly themed discussions with my 15year old DS as I am with my husband. It's the selfishness and lack of empathy that gets me, along with the minimal effort. I can't imagine being 60 with the spouse that has the maturity, still of a 15 year old. And until DH really gets after some of these things...he'll start using again. It's just a matter of time. White knuckling doesn't last forever.
So, now I watch and wait while he does more work. Fortunately I have plenty of other things to keep me busy until it all gets sorted out.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Apr 1, 2019 9:20:22 GMT -5
Hugs to you all.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 1, 2019 13:59:43 GMT -5
My husband is almost 44. Yet, I'm having similarly themed discussions with my 15year old DS as I am with my husband.
Same. We just had this conversation yesterday. DH told me he gets pissed that I treat him like a child. I countered then he needs to stop acting like one because right now I don't have a husband I have three kids. I don't care you "don't know how" to grow up figure it the fuck out like the rest of us had to.
In the meantime I have decided that I am going to set up an online bank account that he is not allowed to be on. A portion of our EF will go in there. It'll either be a bug out account for me or we can finally build a nest egg. Time will tell.
Also getting sick of his dad sticking his nose into our finances. First of all this is not the 1950s where DH's word is law (thank God) and second maybe if your son didn't behave worse than my 30 year brother or my 8 year old daughter when it comes to money maybe he wouldn't have to be on such a tight leash. Maybe instead of harping about me emasculating him you smack him upside the head and tell him to grow some man balls.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2019 14:30:01 GMT -5
There are no easy answers to any of these situations. I've seen the devastation that an addict can wreak. I've also seen a few addicts get sober, stay sober and get their lives back on track. Unfortunately, those few didn't do it until they'd lost almost everything they had of value, including relationships and dignity.
It seems like as long as an addict can maintain the illusion that they are in control, because their lives appear to be normal, they aren't as likely to acknowledge how serious their issues are. They can maintain the illusion longer when someone else is propping them up by holding everything together so that things continue to feel and look normal, whether it's family or a spouse. They don't really feel the pain of being an addict because *somebody* else is standing between them and the consequences of what they do. And as painful as it is to acknowledge, at some point, that *somebody* becomes an enabler.
That's not judgement, because I understand what it's like to love someone that just won't get their shit together, and I understand wanting to keep a family together. It's still the truth though.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Apr 1, 2019 15:04:44 GMT -5
My husband is almost 44. Yet, I'm having similarly themed discussions with my 15year old DS as I am with my husband.Same. We just had this conversation yesterday. DH told me he gets pissed that I treat him like a child. I countered then he needs to stop acting like one because right now I don't have a husband I have three kids. I don't care you "don't know how" to grow up figure it the fuck out like the rest of us had to. In the meantime I have decided that I am going to set up an online bank account that he is not allowed to be on. A portion of our EF will go in there. It'll either be a bug out account for me or we can finally build a nest egg. Time will tell. Also getting sick of his dad sticking his nose into our finances. First of all this is not the 1950s where DH's word is law (thank God) and second maybe if your son didn't behave worse than my 30 year brother or my 8 year old daughter when it comes to money maybe he wouldn't have to be on such a tight leash. Maybe instead of harping about me emasculating him you smack him upside the head and tell him to grow some man balls. I’m sorry... after everything... EVERYTHING your DH has done in the last year... he’s complaining that you treat him like a child?!?!?
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Apr 1, 2019 15:06:05 GMT -5
please know that I am a true pro-choice person in all areas of life (not just in the subject we are not allowed to discuss here) and I want you to know that I and many others with me will always have your back whether you leave, stay now and leave later, or stay your entire life.
I am not the one that has to live with the consequences so the decision will be yours and yours alone. Just know that I believe that among those who have posted here about their struggles there isn't a single one who is not strong enough to do it on your own
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Apr 1, 2019 15:13:16 GMT -5
I can't say it better than NastyWoman so I will just read along as you figure it out. My BIL is a recovering alcoholic and has been since the mid-90's. I do not know what led up to the ultimatum my sister gave him, but it did get him to get help and stop drinking. To this day, alcohol is not allowed in their house. As their kids say, it's totally disrespectful to their dad to bring alcohol in to the house knowing to this day he does not trust himself. He didn't do a 12 step program. He did it with the help of his pastor.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Apr 1, 2019 15:25:58 GMT -5
We've come to the conclusion that likely the easiest thing would be to remain married but have DH rent a small apartment for DH and just have him go there at night once the younger two are asleep, and then just come over the next day if he's not working, or straight to work on the days he works.
We don't have enough bedrooms/finished basement to do an in-house separation, and moving to a bigger house for 7/8 years doesn't seem prudent. I don't even know if divorcing would really even make sense. I'd still need to carry everyone on my health insurance. I'd still be supporting DH. We'd still need to tag team parent. I'd still need to work two jobs.
We've both independently come to the conclusion that I cannot live with a dry drunk for the rest of my life. My husband is almost 44. Yet, I'm having similarly themed discussions with my 15year old DS as I am with my husband. It's the selfishness and lack of empathy that gets me, along with the minimal effort. I can't imagine being 60 with the spouse that has the maturity, still of a 15 year old. And until DH really gets after some of these things...he'll start using again. It's just a matter of time. White knuckling doesn't last forever.
So, now I watch and wait while he does more work. Fortunately I have plenty of other things to keep me busy until it all gets sorted out.
Gira, I've always admired you and how you keep it all together. With 2-3 jobs and 4 kids now, that wouldn't be an easy feat even with a partner that wasn't an addict. I'm sorry you are going through a tough time.
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