A culture thing? Or generation thing?

[Deleted]

I was raised to believe that if it was legal and it paid you, you do it. There is no such thing as pride when you had bills to pay and no work is to small.

2 years ago after we got married and moved upstate NY, I could not find a job for 9 months and we were leaving off our savings. When that started to run dry I took a job at UPS at night for $9 or so and it was for 5hours per night / 5 nights per week (11-4).

Did not pay the bills but it was better than nothing. And better yet, I was getting a great workout/cardio out of it. Then I switch over to a grocery store as a night clerk earning $10.70/hr and working another part time job on the side during the day.

Did I want another accounting clerk job wearing a tie/pants, indoors all day? Yes but I could not find one and I had bills to pay, a wife to support. You take what you find and thank god things turned around as I kept on looking for jobs during the day when I was free.

Anyway this bring me to this conversation. My wife cousin graduated last year with a Masters in Education, has taken and passed all her certifications yet been over a year and cannot find a job. She substitute a few times a week but it is not a guarantee.

Her dad owns a bakery (my mother in law runs it for him on weekends and was offered to work there full time) and I told her why doesn't she works for him till she find a job. Her answer: she did not study all those years to go work in a bakery.

Honest to God I wanted to slap some since into the girl. Guess what? That bakery paid to put her older sister and her thru undergrad, law school for her older sister and grad school for her. She still lives at home (mortgage that the bakery is paying for), eat their food (bakery is buying) yet is too good to work there.

The business is growing (her dad and uncle owns 2 bakeries in Queens, NY) and he is looking to hire more people and I thought it was be a good way for her to own a steady income while looking for a job. The Long Island school district is laying off teachers, not hiring them so I wish her the best.

[chiver78]

I don't think it's so much a culture or generation thing, but a work ethic thing. you were raised to do what you needed to do in order to live. your wife's cousin apparently was not. I remember a thread you posted about moving, where I wasn't sure where your wife's head was, either. I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way....not too worried though, you seem to be wired like me.

can you tactfully slap some sense into her without finding the family's wrath upon you? she definitely sounds like she needs a kick in the butt - and if she's made it this far with that attitude, nobody in her family is going to do her the favor of providing that kick. if not, back away safely, she's not worth your stress.

[2kids10horses]

Her Dad ought to kick her out of the house unless she pays rent.

If the only job she can find to pay the rent is at a bakery, she bakes!

Besides, I would think that owning a bakery would pay more than teaching anyway.

She ought to work at the bakery to learn the ropes, then go open up a new location to grow the family business.

[busymom]

Why wouldn't she want to learn the bakery business?!? Her Dad won't be working forever, and it'd be a great opportunity to learn how to be an entrepreneur herself. When Dad retires, she could continue to keep the business going!

I guess this answers the question--"how dumb could she be." --LOL!

And Cawiau, we always say here (we have a lot of crazy relatives), you can pick your friends, but you can't pick your relatives!

[Sum Dum Gai]

I could see it being somewhat cultural. One of the central ideas of the American dream is that your kids have a better life than you do. Just about everyone I grew up with was told from a pretty early age to be something "better" than whatever their parents were doing. Listening to your parents tell you for 20 years to be something better than a baker could solidify in your mind that the job is beneath you, or not what you spent so much time in school for.

I'm not saying she isn't being an idiot, but it could be one reason.

The funny part of the story to me is that I spent my childhood being told by my mother not to be a teacher. She said if you're going to spend that long in school, and work all the extra hours, you should do something that pays better. My mom was a teacher by the way.

[woodwand]

As a person who has worked as a nurse's aid, at McDonalds and cleaning the floors at markets at night, I think she'd better get over herself. Working an honest job for honest pay is better than being a leach.

[Deleted]

She doesn't care for the business... my mother in law believe that when the father passes away her older sister (the lawyer) will most likely take it from her and let her husband run it or sell it to their uncle.

[Waffle]

I don't think it's generational either. I know a man in his 40s who lost his management job and didn't work for about a year, it took his wife threatning to throw him out before he would take an "unskilled labor" job.

ETA: A lot of people have their self-esteem tied up in their jobs. Just think when you meet someone new, one of the first things everyone asks is "what do you do" as if that gives you some great insight as to what kind of person they are.

[Deleted]

Mar 31, 2011 21:20:39 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

I could see it being somewhat cultural. One of the central ideas of the American dream is that your kids have a better life than you do. Just about everyone I grew up with was told from a pretty early age to be something "better" than whatever their parents were doing. Listening to your parents tell you for 20 years to be something better than a baker could solidify in your mind that the job is beneath you, or not what you spent so much time in school for..

I can see where that might be the case because it is really reinforce in the Haitian culture to always be more than your parents. You always want to go one step further than your parents. etc.

But my step dad own medallions for taxi's (he used to be a taxi driver and started by buying the medallion of the taxi he was driving from the owner) and now owns 7. I understand the business and I think his son is stupid from walking away from it, it could have made it bigger than 7. If I stayed in NJ, I would have been more than happy to go in business with my step dad.

Just because they want you to go one step further or do something bigger than they did does not mean the whole field they are in is bad. You can take what they are currently doing (bakery, taxi) and make it BIGGER! You still reach the end goal, you have made the family business bigger.

[kindthatjingles]

Sounds more like basic entitlement to me. I would do ANYTHING to support my kids. I honestly believe that is why a lot of people are out of jobs. They want what they made before,and will not take anything unless they get that pay. I was offered to take a pay cut or get laid off. Took the pay cut and started cleaning houses on the side. So working twice as hard and not even the same pay. You do what you have to do.

Like my Grandpa used to say
The world needs ditch diggers too

[kindthatjingles]

Cawiau,

By the way love your posts

Karma to you!

[Deleted]

Mar 31, 2011 21:22:57 GMT -5 woodwand said:

Working an honest job for honest pay is better than being a leach.

Please say that again. I was looking at her like she was crazy but the girl is dead serious.

So she is applying for PhD programs now in case she still doesn't find a job this coming fall

[Deleted]

Mar 31, 2011 21:07:08 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

can you tactfully slap some sense into her without finding the family's wrath upon you? she definitely sounds like she needs a kick in the butt - and if she's made it this far with that attitude, nobody in her family is going to do her the favor of providing that kick. if not, back away safely, she's not worth your stress.

I wish I could and no I am not stressing over her. Seriously, I was just surprised how she could be so full of herself: that business took care of her, put food on the table, paid for education and now she feels she is to good to work there?

I was just shocked more than anything

[Deleted]

Mar 31, 2011 21:33:36 GMT -5 kindthatjingles said:

Cawiau,

By the way love your posts

Karma to you!

Thank you and the same to you

[woodwand]

Funny, Snerdley, my oldest daughter *is* a truck driver. Owns her truck (leasing to a company) and is having a good time. I'm equaly as proud of her as I am of my youngest daughter who is a SAHM, homeschooling her kids. Both have important jobs.

[woodwand]

AND.....I never treat anyone like their job is not important. Think about that for just a minute.

[Deleted]

Mar 31, 2011 22:21:33 GMT -5 woodwand said:

AND.....I never treat anyone like their job is not important. Think about that for just a minute.

I will thank my mother for that, she thought me to be humble and respect everyone regardless of their jobs or title.

They are busting their asses, might not be earning as much as someone else, but it is an honest/legal job and they deserve respect.

To me, I felt that was a total lack of respect for her father and the business that has taken care of her all her life and still is.

I bet you if she gets into that PhD program, she is going to keep on living at home, being supported by daddy/mommy and all bills being paid by them.

[cronewitch]

I will take a slightly different take on this. She is working a few days a week as a teacher, she is trained as a teacher, if she quits to be a baker it will hard to ever be a full time teacher.

Since her parents are supporting her she should work free for them on days she doesn't teach. She can bake early mornings and on days when she doesn't teach. She can come at night to clean the bakery. If her parents insist on paying her she should pay them rent and buy food for the family.

I have done all kinds of work and have nothing against work but sometimes you have to aim higher even if it cost in the short run. My boyfriend refused low paid work to stand out in front of a union as a temp for years only working when all the members had work. He was lucky to get 2-3 days a week for years. Then he had a step up so could wait indoors, then allowed to be a second class union member. Now he is at the top of the pile making 5 times as much as he would as other jobs he could get. It took about 8 years to land where he is and the first 3-4 most people quit and take a full time job. While working as a casual worker temping he lived in the parking lot of the union in a camper to try for work 3 times a day to save time and gas money, but he really wanted the job and did what needed done.

[Deleted]

Mar 31, 2011 23:03:29 GMT -5 cronewitch said:

Since her parents are supporting her she should work free for them on days she doesn't teach. She can bake early mornings and on days when she doesn't teach. She can come at night to clean the bakery. If her parents insist on paying her she should pay them rent and buy food for the family.

No one is telling her to quit being a substitute or looking for jobs, but the day she doesn't work or better yet work evenings (bakery closes at 10) she can go and work for her dad at the bakery.

I feel it is not only extra income since her dad will most likely pay her, but gives her a somewhat financial stability if weeks like last week she was not called in at all.

No one never said not to dream big or want better for yourself but don't think any jobs is beneath you. When you do that you automatically make a statement that the people working such jobs are losers for doing so.

My grandmother was a servant at people's house, I have aunts/uncles that did not go to school, my mom used to work for $1.25 at McDonald's. I never forget that and it keeps me grounded.

[Mardi Gras Audrey]

Was she working before and is on unemployment? I ask that because I know a lot of people that have not been able to find jobs (especially in her field) and feel that it is better to stay on UE than to take a job that would be "lesser". They worry that going into the "lesser" job will hinder their chances when the economy comes back so it is better to be "looking for a job" for the next few years.

On the other hand, I have relatives that got out of school and have done the same thing (Looked for a job in their field for several months and lived off relatives). It always fascinated me to watch them because they would live off their relatives and not contribute but refuse to take another job that they considered lower.

[cronewitch]

I worked since I was 7 starting as farm labor earning about 50 cents a day. As a teen I made .25 to .50 a hour babysitting. My first after high school job was a housekeeper for $100 a month then I landed a factory job for 1.25. I have done all kinds of work from bathing an elderly stroke victim, cleaning motels, cleaning a mental hospital, doctors offices, managing motels and apartments, waiting tables, loading trucks, packing eggs, cooking in a nursing home and washing dishes at a hospital. Work is just work some is dirty or hard and some is clean and easy. I haven't had to do any hard work or dirty work since about 1972 and hope I never do again but that doesn't mean I am better than I was when I did or better than those doing it now.

Hard to believe they pay me over a thousand a week to shuffle papers. I get to drink coffee at my desk, play on the internet and only have about half enough work to keep really busy.

[txbo]

If her parents don’t care and are willing to support her decision to live at home during this time of turmoil in our education system why should anyone else care? The only mistake she is making is to get a PhD before she has some work experience.
Please don’t tell me that all work is honorable and deserve our admiration, I see few people that actually believe and practice that. In addition, the unemployment rate for collage graduates is around 4.5% compared to 10 % for non-graduates. Today one needs to push their children to attain a good education in order for them to find employment.
Truck driving is great for someone that is retired; you certainly will not get rich from it. Even an owner operator today has to pay almost $4 per gallon for fuel that is about $8 for ten miles of driving, not many can afford to drive anymore.
Right now corporate America is pushing wage rates down for the unskilled and uneducated workers. At the same time, they are pushing to increase the quota for educated foreign workers to enter the American workforce.
Do you still want your kids to be common laborers.

[cytoglycerine]

Cawiau - I haven't read all the posts, so I'm not sure if this has been suggested already, but what about if this girl creates & teaches baking classes at one of her father's bakeries? Assuming she actually knows how to bake, she could design stand-alone classes, or series of classes for local kids, teens and/or adults. Then she'd be putting her education in teaching to good use, and taking advantage of the opportunities in the bakery at the same time. Insurance may be an issue, but there's always some cost in starting up a business.

[Deleted]

Apr 1, 2011 5:49:33 GMT -5 Lady Gaga Gaga Snerd said:

Honest to God I wanted to slap some since into the girl. Guess what?

Not really sure why would have such a reaction though to your wife's cousin. It really is none of your business what she or her family do. If her family is cool with it and she is, so what? But, I do get the point you are trying to make.

It is an expression, does not mean I actually want to slap the girl geeh!

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Her dad owns a bakery (my mother in law runs it for him on weekends and was offered to work there full time) and I told her why doesn't she works for him till she find a job. Her answer: she did not study all those years to go work in a bakery.

Maybe she doesn't want to work for her father? It can be handy to have a family business you can turn to for a job but not everyone can work with their families.

I have worked off and on for my great uncle and while it is decent pay for a server I HATE IT. My great uncle and grandmother are absolutely incapable of separating family and business.

They are my realitives FIRST so lots of personal stuff gets dragged into the workplace.

Then they are not the types to treat family better than everyone, in fact I am treated WORSE.

I do think it is because I am family and "family helps" and also the belief that since you are family you will forgive them easier if they screw you over.

I will do it if I HAVE to, but I will go kicking and screaming. I do not mind helping him out in a pinch, but I am so done working for him on a regular basis.

For a person on the outside of the family/business it is very easy for them to say "Well why don't you just go work for your family".

Until you have actually worked for family you can't understand.


Oh and to people who will say that doing it is a good thing because I can learn the business. .. yeah unless my grandma goes before my great uncle she has every intention when he dies of selling it out from under us and despite multiple requests from us my great uncle has not opened up discussions to sell it to us someday either.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

The business is growing (her dad and uncle owns 2 bakeries in Queens, NY) and he is looking to hire more people and I thought it was be a good way for her to own a steady income while looking for a job. The Long Island school district is laying off teachers, not hiring them so I wish her the best.

Nothing wrong with entering the family business. Many people with college educations go to work in the family business.
With a degree in education, cant she do private tutoring? She could charge $50, $60...per hour.

[alabamagal]

Is it a generational thing? I don't think so, this attitude may be more prevalent with younger folks. Cawaiu - I think you are fairly young and don't have this attitude.

Is it a cultural thing? Maybe. I think it is part of the "entitlement" mentality (I use the word mentality rather than culture) of people who grow in a rich country and believe they deserve to have a good job rather than working hard, even possibly at a job that they consider "beneath themselves". I grew up in a place where there was a large Haitian immigrant community and they were a very hardworking group, I believe because they came from very bad situations. Many worked long hours at low paying jobs to better themselves and their families. For those of us not from those countries, I think we need to be thankful that we are in a good country and remember all the hard work that it takes for people to get their.

For your wife's cousin, I think she should get off her butt and go to work! Does substitute teaching help her have a better chance at getting a job? I don't think so, and where I am from the pay is actually pretty low, probably less than you would make in a bakery. Will getting a PhD give her a better chance at a job? I personally disagree with the way the education system pays teachers with higher degrees more money, because I don't believe that the extra education makes them better teachers. If I was hiring a teacher for elementary or high school, and I had the choice between bachelors degree and PhD, I would pick the bachelors because I would pay them less.

[Deleted]

Mar 31, 2011 23:57:59 GMT -5 Mardi Gras Audrey said:

On the other hand, I have relatives that got out of school and have done the same thing (Looked for a job in their field for several months and lived off relatives). It always fascinated me to watch them because they would live off their relatives and not contribute but refuse to take another job that they considered lower.

This is her situation, she never had a formal teaching job. While getting her masters she had ot shadow a teacher and teach a class, I guest that was a requirement .

But she never had a job as a teacher besides the substituting that she is doing now. It's been over a year and the issue is they are not hiring any more teachers. She will either need to apply to another school district (she said she already did that) or apply anywhere and move if she has to.

I did not tell her to drop her life goals of becoming a teach or principal (she wants to be a principal one day) but she was complaining about money and both my wife and I (my wife used to work at the bareky also during college to make $$$ money) suggested she picked a few extra shifts at the bakery to make ends meet. I am sure her parents would say yes because they are short handed currently, have to work long hours and better yet she makes some extra money on top of the substituting.

Her response came and I just stop feeling sorry for her.

[busymom]

I think it's easier to work for your own family's business, than to work for a "family business." Because, when push comes to shove, even when family members drive everyone else crazy, "they're still family" and the outsider is the one who gets pushed out.

[bean29]

Cawiau,

You cousin should not get her PHD before she has a couple of years of teaching experience under her belt.

My Nephew teaches HS and his wife is certified to teach K-8.

DN is working on his Masters to be an administrator. His wife was an honors student all through school but despite assisting in a classroom all through HS and college, she was unable to get a permanent placement. She did one year as a paraprofessional, a year working for the local chamber of commerce doing marketing (they loved her and were sorry she quit). And finally went to work in a Catholic Grade School. Now that she has a year of teaching expereince, I suspect she will get more attention as a job canadate.

Nephew and Niece both say that school districts shy away from hiring teachers with Master's degrees right out of college b/c they have no classroom experience but the union contracts require them to pay them more than someone with a BS and prob teaching experinece to boot.

She probably should look to get in to a parochial school as a way to get her teaching experince.

My husband has a BS in Education and 3/4 of his credits for a Master's degree. He taught 1 semester. DH says teachers are very successful in business and marketing becasue all the methods classes for teaching are very applicable to business organization skills. Maybe your cousing should work temorary office jobs while she is trying to land a teaching job.