What some are saying about DADT

[stayput]

Special Forces Wary of 'Don't Ask' Repeal
Tuesday, 28 Dec 2010 07:34 AM Article Font Size
By Rowan Scarborough

Special-operations troops think the elite force is facing difficulties by accepting open gays into one of the military's more politically conservative communities.

Interviews with current and former commandos reveal that to maintain unit cohesion of Army Green Berets, Navy SEALs or other elite covert warriors, the military services and U.S. Special Operations Command need to make a special effort to ensure both homosexuals and heterosexuals know the rules of conduct.

"I'm unsure how the Defense Department will define 'openly gay,' " said one Green Beret officer. "I can envision all sorts of new regulations or changes to existing ones, class after class, accusations flying, and more strains on our soldiers. We will spend hundreds of millions of dollars, if not billions, to establish the new rules of the road and to implement them."

Of particular interest is how Navy SEALs, the macho sea, air and land commandos who put great emphasis on physical prowess, will accept gays.

"If an open gay does his job, I think he'll be accepted," said retired Rear Adm. George R. Worthington, a former Navy SEAL. At retirement in 1992, Adm. Worthington commanded the Naval Special Warfare Command, the unit that mints new SEALs in a demanding qualification process.

"I don't think there is going to be that many of them that want to sign up for SEALs anyway because of the closeness and the tightness of the training," Adm. Worthington said.

"My opinion is that they're probably more clerical oriented. Medical profession. Corpsmen. Stuff like that."

Gay-advocacy groups said they know of no research that estimates the percentage of gays in support or desk jobs, compared with close-knit combat occupations, such as special operations and infantry.

Integration in what are called special-operations forces (SOF) is particularly important in the war on terrorism. Covert units are active in Afghanistan hunting down insurgents. Troops are expected to bond closely in small units and survive in harsh forward camps.

Special Operations Command oversees about 60,000 troops, including active and reserves. Of those, about 19,000 are combatants, what the command calls operators.

"It would be premature for me to speculate on how USSOCOM will implement the new policy," spokesman Kenneth McGraw said.

In March, Adm. Eric Olson, who heads Special Operations Command, was asked about the ban during a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing.

"I believe the time has come to consider a change to 'don't ask, don't tell,' " Adm. Olson said. "But I think it should be done in a thoughtful and deliberative manner that should include the conduct of the review that [Defense] Secretary [Robert M.] Gates has directed that would consider the views in the force on a change in the policy. It would include an assessment of the likely effects on recruiting, retention, morale and cohesion and would include an identification of what policies might be needed in the event of a change and recommend those policies as well."

The Pentagon has begun a process expected to last several months to usher in open gays, with the first step the writing of regulations and education program to ensure both homosexuals and heterosexuals know what is expected of them.

"Put the word out," said Adm. Worthington. "If you hit on somebody, you're going to get in a fistfight. You may not like it. I just think if they maintain their composure, they don't bother anybody." The Washington Times interviewed three Army Green Berets who deployed to Afghanistan. They asked not to be named because they are not authorized to speak to the press.

"Our folks tend to be more mature, so that may make it easier," said one officer, who supported repeal. "But, many parts of the SOF community are very white and conservative. That already hurts minority recruitment and will inevitably have an adverse affect on outwardly gay male soldiers." A 1999 Rand study found that "blacks are particularly underrepresented [in SOF] when compared with their presence in the source populations."

The Pentagon's undersecretary of defense for personnel is leading the creation of new open-gay regulations.

Another Green Beret officer said he fears Pentagon bureaucrats are so removed from barracks life they will not take privacy into account.

"It is such a complicated issue, and the military itself doesn't seem to realize what it may be in for in the coming years," the officer said.

"Take the issue of showers. Is a soldier wrong for not wanting to shower with a gay soldier?" he asked "The definition of 'coed' needs to be defined, and it is not adequately covered by existing regulations. I think there will be very interesting lawsuits in the future raised by conservative soldiers as a backlash."

The first Green Beret commando said the military does not even know how many gays are in the active force, making it difficult to target education programs. "So is it worth the strains, is it worth the cost, especially at a period in time when combat soldiers are indeed stressed and the economy is in bad shape?" the officer said.

"My rhetorical question is, 'Why couldn't we have waited until a period of relative peace to implement these changes? That's what we did with racial integration; that's what we did to go to an all-volunteer force."

A former ground intelligence officer who worked with some of the most secret special-operations warriors told The Times: "I believe it will be less of an issue in SOF units where operators are typically more intelligent out-of-the-box thinkers who have gone through an extremely challenging bonding process together."

The Pentagon working group set up to recommend how - not whether - to integrate open gays found the most resistance among Marine Corps and Army combat personnel - the ones who deploy in small units and intimate surroundings.

More than 60 percent of Marines, for example, said avowed gays will hurt their unit's effectiveness. The survey did not specifically query special operators.

The working group's report contained this observation: "These survey results reveal to us a misperception that a gay man does not 'fit' the image of a good warfighter - a misperception that is almost completely erased when a gay service member is allowed to prove himself alongside fellow warfighters.

"Anecdotally, we heard much the same. As one special-operations force warfighter told us, 'We have a gay guy [in the unit]. He's big, he's mean, and he kills lots of bad guys. No one cared that he was gay.' "

Said Adm. Worthington: "It just depends on how they comport themselves. If they start breaking out the bows and the earrings in the barracks, that might cause a little trouble. That becomes a good order and discipline sort of thing. The services are going to have to tighten up on regulations."

© Copyright 2010 The Washington Times, LLC



Read more: Special Forces Wary of 'Don't Ask' Repeal

[❤ mollymouser ❤]

At some point, it's probably advisable to post PART of a story ... and then have a link to where it comes from, so that we don't face any copyright issues.

[stayput]

As you can clearly see, all credits are "clearly" given. Hence, no copyright issues what so ever. Were I to post part of the story, as many do, I would in effect be editing the story w/out consent and copyright issues could be brought to bear.

[stats45]

Not true Stay. There have been some high profile cases where newspapers have sued message boards (and won) and other websites for printing their stories in their entirety.

[stayput]

Not true Stay.

Actually the two cases that I have heard of concerns theft of ideas and "not" reposting with full credit given. So, NO. I am not wrong. Let's get our facts straight before we start pointing fingers. Shall we?

[burnsattornincan]

Thats strange. I see the moderators for this forum are diverdown34, sanityjones, Tennesseer and traelin0. Just who is mollymouser?

[sanityjones]

Hey burns, you're an attorney right? (LOL) How about some pro bono copyright infringement expertise??





This ought to be good, LOL

[Tennesseer]

Fiscan-just because mollymouser is a mod doesn't mean she cannot post on other boards. Don't worry about it.

[stayput]

Mr. Burns, if you "Exalt" me, I will attempt to answer your question.

[stayput]

Mr. Burns. I'm waiting. My time is money. Now it will cost you three "Exalts". Please respond in a timely manner. Thank you.

[burnsattornincan]

My sincere apologies Mr. Stay Put, other pressing issues were needing my attention. I'm not sure what you mean by "exalt" however if you're looking for my support you have it 100%.

[burnsattornincan]

Fiscan-just because mollymouser is a mod doesn't mean she cannot post on other boards. Don't worry about it.

You seem to be everywhere at once Mr. Tennesseer administrator. I do concur anyone can post anywhere they wish however in my opinion a subtle suggestion of authority was the driving force in that post.

I'm sure my client Mr. fiscan will be elated to learn you just can't hold yourself from keeping his memory alive.

[stayput]

Mr. Burns,

If you will direct your attention to the left hand box which both names and describes the member who has made a post, you will locate the "Exalt" button. At the bottom of that box, you will notice "Karma:" followed by a number. Under that, you will see [Exalt] in blue. Please note that you will not find Exalt within your own box. This keeps individuals from increasing their own Karma scores. Now that I am addressing this subject again, I will now require four (4) Exalts from you.
Prior to being removed by our host, there was a smite button in each person's box. Some unknown entity (err, cough cough you can imagine who) went to town on my smite button and gave me a -4 Karma as a result. Your assistance in righting this egregious wrong would be greatly appreciated.

[burnsattornincan]

Mr. Stay Put, I hit the button you described to a tee however it subsequently disappeared. I cannot play games all night but at least you are up to -1 on the counter. Best of luck.

[stayput]

I hit you as well. Prior to actually posting my instructions. You will notice that you have gone from a Karma of "1" to "2". Maybe fiscan will come back and hit me as well.

[ncognito]

As the author of published/copyrighted books and a classroom instructor, I know a little about Title 17 of the United States Code.

Copyright law protects my work from wholesale copying, however, as an instructor I have relied on Chapter 1 – Section 107 - Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use.

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include -

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

It seems the courts are more stringent with copyrighted visual art (pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works) vs. written work. Whenever I use a graphic in my work that I have not created, I have to obtain written permission from the author, which is noted under the graphic.

Also, a bulletin board service infringed a magazine’s copyrights by distributing copyrighted photographs, even though the bulletin board operator did not know that the photographs had been uploaded by subscribers onto the bulletin board. (Playboy Enterprises, Inc., v. Frena, 839 F.Supp.1552)

[burnsattornincan]

Thank you Mr. Stay Put. I was just able to hit you again. You're climbing fast and now stand at 2. Your agenda must be agreeable to a good many. Excellent.

[jarhead1976]

If someone want's to risk their lives so I can continue to be free, God Bless them . I would rather they keep their sexual preferences to themselves ..

[billisonboard]

Dec 29, 2010 11:43:21 GMT -5 @jarhead1976 said:

If someone want's to risk their lives so I can continue to be free, God Bless them . I would rather they keep their sexual preferences to themselves ..

Does this include guys whistling at gals?

[stayput]

Thank you Mr. Burns. Your attention to every conceivable detail is probably what makes you such a success in your profession.

[Tennesseer]

Stayput you have 10 minutes to edit out the objectionable word(s) you directed toward N Cognito or the whole post will be deleted. You know which word(s) they are.

Please take care of it. Thanks.

[Tennesseer]

Stayput-your comments to N Cognito were unacceptable. Therefore I am deleting your reply. This is the second time today I have warned you regarding your choice of words.

Knock it off.

[traelin0]

N Cognito, it is good to see you again. Hopefully you'll pop in from time to time so we can discuss some more Constitutional history.

Happy New Year, sir.

[stayput]

Sorry, was away from the board for a while. I just saw your "warning" tennesseer. If you find the documented, pr oven fact that most teachers in this country are a crime against our student population, I whole heartedly agree. If, however, you find my bringing that fact up (on my own string) objectionable, especially done in a very light manner, than you are going way overboard.
I understand that you are brand new to this Mod thing, but I have to have the time to actually read your first warning, before you hand out another. That means you don't just act out your frustration and give someone a "10" minute time frame to respond before even knowing if the person is still at their computers.
Finally, everyone fully understands that you are as left wing Liberal as they come. I am a conservative. There is no secret about that. If, however, you are incapable of putting your political ideologue aside and being objective, then maybe you should just stick with those strings written by individuals who think like you, rather than trolling on my strings looking for the first opportunity to warn, delete, and ban people who totally disagree with your political views. IMHO

[billisonboard]

Dec 29, 2010 20:21:43 GMT -5 @stayput said:

... the documented, pr oven fact that most teachers in this country are a crime against our student population, ...

Wow!

[traelin0]

Stay Put, I can assure you that Tennesseer is not picking sides here, or picking on you because you're conservative. You'll just have to trust me on this one.

[stayput]

traelin0, coming from you, I'll accept that. Tenn, if I misjudged you on this, I apologize. With that said, this is suppose to be nothing like MSN as moonbeam has stated herself. It is also Politics and Markets. I am known for bringing out political debates and arguments. This is what makes a board soar. Check my numbers if you think I'm wrong. People either love me or hate me. Everyone watches and sees what I will start next, and who will either jump on my band wagon, or try to jump on me. The end result. I bring the people in(.)

[ncognito]

Hello traelin0 and congratulations on your 5-star promotion. As you can see from my ranking, I only have time for an occasional visit. This evening I have been busy replying to RFQ's for next year's work and so far it looks like I will be busy for all of 2011 and 2012.

Stay Put - I did not have the opportunity to see your reply to my posting but I will clarify one issue; I am not a public or private school teacher. I have my own engineering consulting business and instruct individuals on the Supervisor to CEO level. My degrees are in the Mechanical and Nuclear Engineering fields.
I have had the honor of doing a tag-team debate with Mr. Traelin0 on MT with a poster who was using what I call circular logic concerning Constitutional law and he can attest that my postings are not meant to antagonize.

Also, Happy New Year to you Mr. Traelin0!

[madisongirl]

It seems that homosexuality has always been a part of the military dating back to at least ancient Greek and Roman times. A prime example is the Sacred Band of Thebes organized by the Theban Commander Gorgidus 378 BC. They played a key role in the Battle of Leuctra. In those times it was believed if the men on the battle field were lovers than surely the soldiers would fight twice as hard to defend each other in battle. I believe that if someone is willing to put their lives on the line to defend their country who are we to place judgment on their choice of lifestyle or dictate whether or not they can join the Special Forces?

[stayput]

N Cognito, so glad that you took the time to clarify that for me. Thank you. I have my MBA. Wrote my paper on the Itinerant population of the world and how to incorporate them into the settled populations through licenser and taxation...........(cough cough where's my pipe).