Bãsïs fór "Birther" Claims

[deziloooooo]

Apr 1, 2011 18:10:32 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Thanks to both sides for giving me a read on the controversy. Although I'm no fan of President Obama, it seems to me that his natural-born status is at worst 'ambiguous' and that the courts have ruled in his favour.

That said, it's obvious from the debate thus far that not everyone who believes in the stricter definition is just trying to cause trouble. For all we know, a constitutional judge ruled wrongly on the matter ages ago and set a bad precedent. All future rulings (and precedents) then piled onto that landmark case. It has been known to happen.

This is all a bit of a moot issue anyway. Mr. Obama is already well into his third year. Polling suggests that many Democrats won't support him for a second term.

Polls are funny. Now if the election was tomorrow, couldn't agree with you more and also, have to see who is running against him unless you think any one would do.

If so, I do have a few who I would recommend , understand I still am happy as a pig in ..you know what I am getting to, but say happy he is the Potus ..so my recommendations would be suspect.

Is Bush Jr still eligible ?

[privateinvestor]

Apr 1, 2011 21:36:00 GMT -5 oped said:

Yes... i am a believer both in the capacity for human stupidity and the power of mob mentality...

Well not to be coy or disrespectful Ma'am.. but if you travel a lot like I do then you might change your mind especially in small town America. Even out here on the so called left coast the natives are very disenchanted with Obama as he keeps coming out here for fund raising dinners with the Liberal Elite and then flies back to Washington DC with more megabucks for his re election.. Too bad he doesn't visit us at the VA Hospital in Palo Alto, CA or have a question and answer session with college students from Stanford, Cal or the USF.. or take a stroll through downtown Oakland or San Jose to see how bad some folks live or do to earn a living...but I digress because I can't stand Obama and think his defenders are tone deaf to all of his critics on both sides of the aisle.

[Deleted]

P.I. ... I guess I don't really care where they are from, in talking about the portion of the country that believes Obama is a foreign born muslim, if people believe that, then i think stupidity and 'follow the leader without thinking for myself' mentality must be contributing. And i do know some smart people who believe that... so i have to think its a blind spot of some type, but they seem to not want to look at any fact which might disagree with their opinions... Kind of like the article i read the other day about how no one seems to know that Obama actually decreased taxes, and that a LARGE part of the stimulus was actually tax breaks (a mistake in my opinion... but its true)...

I live in small town America... people here didn't vote for Obama anyway for the most part... I have never been deaf to critics... but if they make illogical statements and have no solid evidence to back up their claims, or ignore solid evidence to the contrary... I will obviously choose not to give their complaints merit...

[privateinvestor]

Good Morning Ms oped...what I say or think about Obama isn't worth a cup of Starbucks but just like to vent once in awhile but am very concerned if he is re elected.

BTW I am on my way to Starbucks to argue about this topic with some other old farts who are also all retired military..First thing is I have to explain is how the Red Sox lost and then brag about our grand kids and then maybe argue politics and Obama, but I hope not..boring subject IMHO

[henryclay]

Well, well. Lookie here. And in the ninth circuit, too. The NINTH!!! Does that mean anything to anybody?

Court accepts Wiley Drake's 'birther' appeal
By Bob Allen
Thursday, March 31, 2011 PASADENA, Calif. (ABP) -- Nearly two-and-a-half years into his term, a federal appeals court has agreed to hear oral arguments in a case alleging that Barack Obama is not eligible to serve as president of the United States.

"Praise the Lord Jesus," plaintiff Wiley Drake, pastor of First Southern Baptist Church in Buena Park, Calif., commented on word that the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals had scheduled a hearing on his case May 2.

www.wordandway.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1767&Itemid=53

[billisonboard]

Apr 2, 2011 10:34:04 GMT -5 henryclay said:

Well, well. Lookie here. And in the ninth circuit, too. The NINTH!!! Does that mean anything to anybody?

Court accepts Wiley Drake's 'birther' appeal
By Bob Allen
Thursday, March 31, 2011 PASADENA, Calif. (ABP) -- Nearly two-and-a-half years into his term, a federal appeals court has agreed to hear oral arguments in a case alleging that Barack Obama is not eligible to serve as president of the United States.

"Praise the Lord Jesus," plaintiff Wiley Drake, pastor of First Southern Baptist Church in Buena Park, Calif., commented on word that the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals had scheduled a hearing on his case May 2.

www.wordandway.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1767&Itemid=53

Here is a link to the opening brief if you want a good read:
www.scribd.com/doc/36383328/10-55084-Appellants-Opening-Brief-by-Orly-Taitz-9th-Circuit-Court-of-Appeals-08-11-2010

[henryclay]

Thank you for the link, bills. As I recall an earlier post by one of the ladies asked for information on any details about money being spent on Obama's behalf in defending him against the requests to pony up and uncover his personal history, beginning with the circumstances of his birth. I'd say the opening comment of the brief should at least answer part of the question. The American taxpayer is funding his defense by his having turned the entire United States Department of Justice into hs personal defense team.

".........Actions by the Court and the US Attorneys Office were against public policy and represented a clear conflict of interest between the interest of Obama, who was using the Department of Justice to defraud American Citizens and between American Citizens, who were supposed to be represented by the Department of Justice. ......."

[Deleted]

This is the first time a case wasn't dismissed... so no money has been spent to defend up until this point... I haven't read yet about the case henry is referring too... except for henry's link...

billis... are you sure that is the current case that henryclay is talking about?

[billisonboard]

Apr 2, 2011 11:17:07 GMT -5 oped said:

...

billis... are you sure that is the current case that henryclay is talking about?

Yes.

[henryclay]

Ms oped, I am glad that you have learned there is at least one case you were not familiar with. I may be conjecture that there are probably others. Too, you posit . . . "so no money has been spent to defend up until this point. . . . ". I would ask if you have any evidence that it has never been the United States Attorney's Office from the Department of Justice that has mounted the defense i all the other cases? If that is the case how can it be said that no money, (yours and mine), has been spent?

Unless you are saying the other cases were not defended at all. Which is unrealistic since someone had to offer the judges an option to dismiss, and on the face of such an offer, it would be the defense's responsibility to make it. Ergo: defense money has been spent in each of th several cases you mentioned that has been dismissed or otherwise disposed of by a judge..

[humok]

If Obama was born in Kenya then he had dual citizenship, If he also had citizenship in Indonesia then he had dual citizenship(Barry Sotoro)...These two things alone if they can be proven would disqualify him as President and if they are true then there are many more that should pay for this deception being played out against the American people and the Constitutional laws of this country. If they are proven false then lets get on with life here and just let the voters decide in the next election if he has been or will be a good president for the people of this country. I will not offer my opinion and I think there are those that already know what that is anyway. I did a lot of research during the election and I am convinced of the outcome if this indeed goes to court before a judge that really wants to know the truth and have it come out.

[privateinvestor]

. I did a lot of research during the election and I am convinced of the outcome if this indeed goes to court before a judge that really wants to know the truth and have it come out.

If it goes to court?? I rather doubt it..IMHO

[humok]

PI you are probably right if you mean "If it goes to court" because the establishment cannot ever let it be known if they indeed scammed the people of this country to place their puppet in office. Imagine the repercussions.

[billisonboard]

Apr 2, 2011 12:54:39 GMT -5 humok said:

PI you are probably right if you mean "If it goes to court" because the establishment cannot ever let it be known if they indeed scammed the people of this country to place their puppet in office. Imagine the repercussions.

Why Barack Huessein Obama? Couldn't they have found some puppet with a less "questionable" past to place into office?

[mmhmm]

If he also had citizenship in Indonesia then he had dual citizenship(Barry Sotoro)...

No, he didn't. Indonesia doesn't recognize dual citizenship.

[humok]

Yes but the constitution covers that and makes him "Natural Born".

[humok]

for the record i DO NOT WANT mCcAIN TO BE PRES EITHER.

[henryclay]

Hummer, you must have a crystel ball as to how the system can support deflecting the case from a fair and impartial airing. Here is some more from the Appeal Brief:

The most flagrant expression of Undue Influence, abuse of Judicial Discretion, Bias, lack of impartiality, was use of an attorney from the Defendant’s law firm as a law clerk for the presiding judge[.

No wonder there are people who have lost faith in justice in America. When the entire system is rigged on the side of power Justice is not just blind; Justice has been beheaded. The Justice we try to teach our children can't even exist in such a corrupt atmosphere.

PS. McCain was in fact born, (of two American citizens), in the Panama Canal Zone, in a Naval Hospital under an American flag. He also laid it all out and was vetted. He passed inspection. Am I wrong, or isn't the question still pending as regards Obama.

[chiver78]

Apr 2, 2011 13:08:48 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

If he also had citizenship in Indonesia then he had dual citizenship(Barry Sotoro)...

No, he didn't. Indonesia doesn't recognize dual citizenship.

for the record, neither does the US.

[humok]

My response about "Natural Born" was in reference to Dem's comment about McCain not Obama. I would REALLY LIKE to see this go through the higher courts and believe Obama would be rousted from office (for the record). I also think there would/should be many others pay for this. does this clarify my intent henry?

[Deleted]

The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy.Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice. For example, a child born in a foreign country to U.S. citizen parents may be both a U.S. citizen and a citizen of the country of birth.

A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.

travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

[mmhmm]

Yes, chiver, the US does recognize dual citizenship.

[Deleted]

I was unaware the constitution defined it at all humok... can you quote and link please? Thanks...

[humok]

Yes oped you are correct there but not on how it applies to "Natural Born" requirements to be pres.

[chiver78]

not according to the US CIS - US Citizenship and Immigration Services. I called and spoke with a few different people before I applied for a Canadian passport. (I am a dual citizen)

every single person I spoke with said that the United States recognizes only the US citizenship of anyone that has citizenship elsewhere. there's no problem if someone holds dual, but the US does not recognize the other.

[Deleted]

What would be for them to recognize?

I think the point is that some countries say that you cannot hold dual citizenship, while US does not say that. I think i will apply for Romanian citizenship for my kids though, so that if they ever had to answer as to their intent, then it wasn't theirs, it was mine.. ?..

[humok]

Legislation and executive branch policyThe requirements for citizenship, and its very definition in American statute law, have changed since the Constitution was ratified in 1788. Congress first recognized the citizenship of children born to U.S. parents overseas on March 26, 1790, stating that "the children of citizens of the United States, that may be born beyond sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens: Provided, That the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never been resident in the United States."[23]

All persons born in the United States, except those not subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S. government (such as children of ambassadors or other foreign diplomats) are citizens at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment.[24]

Additionally, under sections 301–309 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (restated in sections 1401–1409 of Title 8 of the United States Code), current U.S. law defines numerous other categories of individuals born abroad, as well as people born in most U.S. territories and possessions, as being "nationals and citizens of the United States at birth".[25] The phrase "natural born citizen," however, does not appear in the current statutes dealing with citizenship at birth.

The law governing the citizenship of children born outside the U.S. to one or two U.S.-citizen parents has varied considerably over time.[26] Current U.S. statutes define various categories of individuals born overseas as citizens at birth, including (for example) all persons "born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person."[27]

The definition of the United States, for nationality purposes, was expanded in 1952 to add Guam, and in 1986 it was expanded again to include the Northern Mariana Islands.[28] Persons born in these territories (in addition to Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands) currently acquire U.S. citizenship at birth on the same terms as persons born in other parts of the United States. The category of outlying possessions of the United States (whose inhabitants generally have U.S. nationality but not U.S. citizenship) is now restricted to American Samoa and Swains Island.[29][30] Regarding people born at U.S. military bases in foreign countries, current U.S. State Department policy (as codified in the department's Foreign Affairs Manual) reads:

"Despite widespread popular belief, U.S. military installations abroad and U.S. diplomatic or consular facilities are not part of the United States within the meaning of the 14th Amendment. A child born on the premises of such a facility is not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and does not acquire U.S. citizenship by reason of birth."[31]

The foregoing section of the FAM only addresses citizenship by 'jus soli: In short, what is the geographic scope of the "United States"? This does not affect citizenship via 'jus sanguinis, i.e. those who are born abroad to U.S. citizens and who otherwise meet the qualifications for statutory citizenship.[32] The State Department also asserts that "the fact that someone is a natural born citizen pursuant to a statute does not necessarily imply that he or she is such a citizen for Constitutional purposes."[33] This position seems to be at odds with the fact that Congress in 1790 felt it could confer natural born citizenship on those born abroad to American parents.

According to an April 2000 report by the Congressional Research Service, most constitutional scholars interpret Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution as including citizens born outside the United States to parents who are U.S. citizens under the “natural born” requirement. This same CRS report also asserts that citizens born in the District of Columbia, Guam, Puerto Rico, and the U.S. Virgin Islands are legally defined as "natural born" citizens and are, therefore, also eligible to be elected President

[humok]

Despite widespread popular belief, U.S. military installations abroad and U.S. diplomatic or consular facilities are not part of the United States within the meaning of the 14th Amendment. A child born on the premises of such a facility is not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and does not acquire U.S. citizenship by reason of birth."[3 Dem...I found this very interesting as it pertains to McCain. I would just like to see this go before the courts and have it settled once and for all. I really believe many have been in public office that legally should not have been.

[Mkitty is pro kitty]

I do tons of travelling lately and have been astonished to hear people talk about this..and they are not all Red Necks, Joe Six Pack, or Sally Soccer Moms, but rather attorneys, retired military, and small business owners....

I just had tea and crumpets with the queen and some astronauts and they disagree.

If Obama was born in Kenya then he had dual citizenship, If he also had citizenship in Indonesia then he had dual citizenship(Barry Sotoro)...These two things alone if they can be proven

If'n ifs and buts...

If they are proven false

The old prove a negative routine. Can you prove you weren't born in Kenya?

Why Barack Huessein Obama? Couldn't they have found some puppet with a less "questionable" past to place into office?

They ignored that the other time you said it too. This is what happens when you throw everything and see what sticks; some of it has to turn out to be contradictory. Maybe you Conservatives should fix that in the next edition of your playbook.

The American taxpayer is funding his defense by his having turned the entire United States Department of Justice into hs personal defense team.

That's the magic of public employees: they're paid the same amount whether they work on Obama's case (or someone else's) or do nothing.

Too bad he doesn't visit us at the VA Hospital in Palo Alto, CA

You mean have a photo-op before slashing funding? You'll have to wait for another Republican President to do that, I guess. Make sure you mark it on your 2017 calendar, and even that's only a maybe.

So all you birthers have left is supposed opinions and theoretical evidence (so where is that Kenyan BC, Orlys?), while we have the Supreme Court and a Resolution unanimously voted for by the HoR. Well you know where Obama stands. Hey, maybe you can get the Senate to do something.

[Deleted]

What's the point hum?