"Women Must Submit"

[kadee79]

She didn't like that I posted it here where ALL could see what 'some' are doing & how 'some' are thinking and pushing these thoughts/beliefs into politics and trying to control our lives.

[Green Eyed Lady]

It seems a bit inconsistent to me to post a thread about a religious figure and then disallow religion to enter the discussion. I'm still unable to understand why people think they might catch something if the Bible is quoted, but I do try to follow the rules. Maybe this thread should have been posted in the "Religion" section in the first place as it appears to be a bit short-sighted to think that scripture won't be quoted in a thread that posts someone's religious opinion that is based on scripture. 

[Shooby]

I didnt put any actual Bible quotes but gee the thread is about " woman must submit" and a preacher's opinion. So i guess this thread is just bait then again to try to slam and prevent anyone from offering a different opinion.

[Tennesseer]

May 8, 2018 21:50:12 GMT -5 Shooby said:

I didnt put any actual Bible quotes but gee the thread is about " woman must submit" and a preacher's opinion. So i guess this thread is just bait then again to try to slam and prevent anyone from offering a different opinion.

Biblical submission is not the act of being dominated or controlled.  Seems that many people don't want to be bothered to take the time to understand what biblical submission is.  And, yes, there are preachers who get this wrong.   Submission is putting the needs of another in front of your own.   Men are told to "love their wives as Christ loved the Church" in a self sacrificing way as He sacrificed Himself to the point of death for the sake of the Church and mankind.  That was the ultimate act of submission to the Father.  So, those who want to paint submission as something ugly are looking at a perverted notion of submission and not the true acts of Biblical submission.

Ephesians 5:22-33?

[Shooby]

Funny though how my threads are deleted or moved immediately but a thread that is attacking a Baptist preacher can then not be discussed. If u actually read what i wrote, i do not agree with him.

[Shooby]

Yes Eohesians 5:22 which is the Title of the thread that "women must submit". That verse is the entire premise of this thread!

[Shooby]

Which is the entire point thatu dont read the first sentence and skip the rest as a preacher. Hello.

Oh wait its ok to post these threads but not then actually discuss them unless it is simply to beat up on whatever the Left wants to beat up on today.

[Tennesseer]

May 8, 2018 21:57:02 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Yes Eohesians 5:22 which is the Title of the thread that "women must submit".

The bible passage I mentioned does not state women must submit verbatim.

[Tennesseer]

May 8, 2018 22:00:58 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Which is the entire point thatu dont read the first sentence and skip the rest as a preacher. Hello.

Oh wait its ok to post these threads but not then actually discuss them unless it is simply to beat up on whatever the Left wants to beat up on today.

The thread is not all about any particular bible passage. It is about a pastor, physical abuse, and words attributed to him in the past.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Here is a quoted section of the article in the OP:

“I have also said that I have never recommended or prescribed divorce. How could I as a minister of the Gospel? The Bible makes clear the way in which God views divorce,” he wrote.

That says that the pastors words - attributed to him in the past - come from his interpretation of scripture.  If you get to post the article, you should be able to discuss the content of the article.  You shouldn't be able to put something out there and then only be able to discuss one side of it.  Ya'll are acting like a bunch of religiphobes.  Try focusing on the subject matter.  It doesn't appear anybody agrees with it and if people were allowed to post why, we might all learn something instead of spending our time Practicing Moderation Without A License.

[Green Eyed Lady]

I don't know how to post articles but for anyone who is genuinely interested in understanding one interpretation of all of this, there is an article entitled "What Is So Scary About Submission" that I think would surprise you if you actually read it with an open mind and without preconceived notions. Biblical submission isn't about getting on your knees and chanting "Yes, Master". It's about putting another's needs before your own - yes - but it doesn't mean you don't use your brain (which God gave us, by the way). In addition, it goes for both people in the relationship.  It encompasses more than just husbands and wives.  It's also directed at parents and children.  It doesn't mean that you stay in a marriage where you are being hurt - either physically or emotionally.

Of course, that's just my interpretation and I'm not purporting it as fact and honestly - I see this guy's past views as Fifty Shades of Screwed Up.  I'm hoping he sees the error of his ways and that he doesn't counsel any more women (or men) to stay in harmful relationships.  I'm pretty confident that the God I love doesn't ask this of us. 

[tallguy]

May 9, 2018 8:42:32 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

I don't know how to post articles but for anyone who is genuinely interested in understanding one interpretation of all of this, there is an article entitled "What Is So Scary About Submission" that I think would surprise you if you actually read it with an open mind and without preconceived notions. Biblical submission isn't about getting on your knees and chanting "Yes, Master". It's about putting another's needs before your own - yes - but it doesn't mean you don't use your brain (which God gave us, by the way). In addition, it goes for both people in the relationship.  It encompasses more than just husbands and wives.  It's also directed at parents and children.  It doesn't mean that you stay in a marriage where you are being hurt - either physically or emotionally.

Of course, that's just my interpretation and I'm not purporting it as fact and honestly - I see this guy's past views as Fifty Shades of Screwed Up.  I'm hoping he sees the error of his ways and that he doesn't counsel any more women (or men) to stay in harmful relationships.  I'm pretty confident that the God I love doesn't ask this of us. 

This one?

What's So Scary About Submission?

For the record, I agree with you.  The problem is that the guy in the OP doesn't.  If even church "leaders" have so little understanding of what the truth is supposed to be, how is the average person supposed to stand a chance?  Picking and choosing what they want to believe, and then misinterpreting or taking things out of context to justify the belief that they want to hold, is exactly why I say so often that so many people who claim to be Christian have no idea what it really means.  They claim the title for whatever reason suits them (public approval, to appear more "moral", whatever) but do not even hold the beliefs much less live by them.  True Christians need to do a much better job of calling out fake ones.  Those are the ones who give the rest a bad name.     

[Opti]

May 8, 2018 10:39:01 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

It seems a bit inconsistent to me to post a thread about a religious figure and then disallow religion to enter the discussion. I'm still unable to understand why people think they might catch something if the Bible is quoted, but I do try to follow the rules. Maybe this thread should have been posted in the "Religion" section in the first place as it appears to be a bit short-sighted to think that scripture won't be quoted in a thread that posts someone's religious opinion that is based on scripture. 

It could have gone to Religious Discussion but why? I don't think the article spelled out his position and what bible verses they related to. So bringing any biblical verse into the discussion will not be a discussion of his views and why he had them. It would be conjecture and to me useless.

YMMV.

[Green Eyed Lady]

May 9, 2018 11:06:48 GMT -5 Opti said:

May 8, 2018 10:39:01 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

It seems a bit inconsistent to me to post a thread about a religious figure and then disallow religion to enter the discussion. I'm still unable to understand why people think they might catch something if the Bible is quoted, but I do try to follow the rules. Maybe this thread should have been posted in the "Religion" section in the first place as it appears to be a bit short-sighted to think that scripture won't be quoted in a thread that posts someone's religious opinion that is based on scripture. 

It could have gone to Religious Discussion but why? I don't think the article spelled out his position and what bible verses they related to. So bringing any biblical verse into the discussion will not be a discussion of his views and why he had them. It would be conjecture and to me useless.

YMMV.

Yes.  It does.

[Shooby]

In order to understand what the Pastor's point of view is, you have to look at the context and frame of reference.  But, carry on, i will bow out as this is pointless.  Enjoy.

[Green Eyed Lady]

May 9, 2018 10:46:08 GMT -5 tallguy said:

May 9, 2018 8:42:32 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

I don't know how to post articles but for anyone who is genuinely interested in understanding one interpretation of all of this, there is an article entitled "What Is So Scary About Submission" that I think would surprise you if you actually read it with an open mind and without preconceived notions. Biblical submission isn't about getting on your knees and chanting "Yes, Master". It's about putting another's needs before your own - yes - but it doesn't mean you don't use your brain (which God gave us, by the way). In addition, it goes for both people in the relationship.  It encompasses more than just husbands and wives.  It's also directed at parents and children.  It doesn't mean that you stay in a marriage where you are being hurt - either physically or emotionally.

Of course, that's just my interpretation and I'm not purporting it as fact and honestly - I see this guy's past views as Fifty Shades of Screwed Up.  I'm hoping he sees the error of his ways and that he doesn't counsel any more women (or men) to stay in harmful relationships.  I'm pretty confident that the God I love doesn't ask this of us. 

This one?

What's So Scary About Submission?

For the record, I agree with you.  The problem is that the guy in the OP doesn't.  If even church "leaders" have so little understanding of what the truth is supposed to be, how is the average person supposed to stand a chance?  Picking and choosing what they want to believe, and then misinterpreting or taking things out of context to justify the belief that they want to hold, is exactly why I say so often that so many people who claim to be Christian have no idea what it really means.  They claim the title for whatever reason suits them (public approval, to appear more "moral", whatever) but do not even hold the beliefs much less live by them.  True Christians need to do a much better job of calling out fake ones.  Those are the ones who give the rest a bad name.     

I hear you and I mostly agree.  But the thing is there isn't any "the truth is supposed to be".  There is just "truth".  The problem is that "truth" can and is seen differently between one person and the next.  It doesn't make someone less of a "true Christian" because they don't interpret things exactly the same way as the next person. 

What makes a person, in my opinion, not a "true Christian" is people who don't even try to live their lives by the word of God.  The Bible says first and foremost that we should love one another.  Ok...not in Genesis 1 but you get my drift.  If we don't live by that word, we do fail as Christians.   But that doesn't mean we can't keep on trying.  Nobody is perfect and people make mistakes.  Christians don't usually profess to be perfect.  We profess to be extremely flawed and in constant need of forgiveness.  We admit to making mistakes and ask that those things be forgiven.  To me, part of asking for forgiveness is like any other apology - is the unspoken promise that we will try not to do whatever it was again.  Making mistakes or misjudgments doesn't make a person not a "true Christian".  It just makes them flawed.

Are there people who profess to be Christians but aren't?  Of course.  I put forth the Westboro group as an example.  They do not live - first and foremost - by the tenet of loving one another.  The guy in the OP?  If I read correctly, he knows he needs to question his ministries and is doing so.  Perhaps not to the extent that others want, but at least to some extent.  I call that progress in the search of the truth.  Did this particular pastor find passages in the Bible to uphold his beliefs that women should been submissive to men and continue in relationships that are unhealthy?  Possibly.  Personally, I can't understand why a man would WANT a women to be a submissive robot, but apparently some do.

[Green Eyed Lady]

May 9, 2018 11:13:44 GMT -5 Shooby said:

In order to understand what the Pastor's point of view is, you have to look at the context and frame of reference.  But, carry on, i will bow out as this is pointless.  Enjoy.

Exactly. And if it gets deleted - fine.  It will just prove that honest two-sided discussion is not to be allowed.

[Opti]

May 9, 2018 11:13:44 GMT -5 Shooby said:

In order to understand what the Pastor's point of view is, you have to look at the context and frame of reference.  But, carry on, i will bow out as this is pointless.  Enjoy.

If you have any article that gives his biblical context for his views, go ahead and post. Ask for the discussion to be moved. You've had that option for days, why haven't you acted on it?

[tallguy]

May 9, 2018 11:27:33 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

May 9, 2018 10:46:08 GMT -5 tallguy said:

This one?

What's So Scary About Submission?

For the record, I agree with you.  The problem is that the guy in the OP doesn't.  If even church "leaders" have so little understanding of what the truth is supposed to be, how is the average person supposed to stand a chance?  Picking and choosing what they want to believe, and then misinterpreting or taking things out of context to justify the belief that they want to hold, is exactly why I say so often that so many people who claim to be Christian have no idea what it really means.  They claim the title for whatever reason suits them (public approval, to appear more "moral", whatever) but do not even hold the beliefs much less live by them.  True Christians need to do a much better job of calling out fake ones.  Those are the ones who give the rest a bad name.     

I hear you and I mostly agree.  But the thing is there isn't any "the truth is supposed to be".  There is just "truth".  The problem is that "truth" can and is seen differently between one person and the next.  It doesn't make someone less of a "true Christian" because they don't interpret things exactly the same way as the next person. 

What makes a person, in my opinion, not a "true Christian" is people who don't even try to live their lives by the word of God.  The Bible says first and foremost that we should love one another.  Ok...not in Genesis 1 but you get my drift.  If we don't live by that word, we do fail as Christians.   But that doesn't mean we can't keep on trying.  Nobody is perfect and people make mistakes.  Christians don't usually profess to be perfect.  We profess to be extremely flawed and in constant need of forgiveness.  We admit to making mistakes and ask that those things be forgiven.  To me, part of asking for forgiveness is like any other apology - is the unspoken promise that we will try not to do whatever it was again.  Making mistakes or misjudgments doesn't make a person not a "true Christian".  It just makes them flawed.

Are there people who profess to be Christians but aren't?  Of course.  I put forth the Westboro group as an example.  They do not live - first and foremost - by the tenet of loving one another.  The guy in the OP?  If I read correctly, he knows he needs to question his ministries and is doing so.  Perhaps not to the extent that others want, but at least to some extent.  I call that progress in the search of the truth.  Did this particular pastor find passages in the Bible to uphold his beliefs that women should been submissive to men and continue in relationships that are unhealthy?  Possibly.  Personally, I can't understand why a man would WANT a women to be a submissive robot, but apparently some do.

I don't expect anyone to be perfect, but some interpretations of "truth" are clearly wrong.  I also think your bolded portion is too broad.  If they don't even try they cannot call themselves one, "true" or not.  Everyone is flawed, but the attempt and the dedication are important.  What is worse is hypocrisy, where one claims a belief or status KNOWING that they do not truly hold it.  Or acceptance of hypocrisy in others.  Equally damning.  Both of those play out prominently on the political stage, and religion and politics are both much worse for it.    

[Green Eyed Lady]

May 9, 2018 12:01:46 GMT -5 tallguy said:

May 9, 2018 11:27:33 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

I hear you and I mostly agree.  But the thing is there isn't any "the truth is supposed to be".  There is just "truth".  The problem is that "truth" can and is seen differently between one person and the next.  It doesn't make someone less of a "true Christian" because they don't interpret things exactly the same way as the next person. 

What makes a person, in my opinion, not a "true Christian" is people who don't even try to live their lives by the word of God.  The Bible says first and foremost that we should love one another.  Ok...not in Genesis 1 but you get my drift.  If we don't live by that word, we do fail as Christians.   But that doesn't mean we can't keep on trying.  Nobody is perfect and people make mistakes.  Christians don't usually profess to be perfect.  We profess to be extremely flawed and in constant need of forgiveness.  We admit to making mistakes and ask that those things be forgiven.  To me, part of asking for forgiveness is like any other apology - is the unspoken promise that we will try not to do whatever it was again.  Making mistakes or misjudgments doesn't make a person not a "true Christian".  It just makes them flawed.

Are there people who profess to be Christians but aren't?  Of course.  I put forth the Westboro group as an example.  They do not live - first and foremost - by the tenet of loving one another.  The guy in the OP?  If I read correctly, he knows he needs to question his ministries and is doing so.  Perhaps not to the extent that others want, but at least to some extent.  I call that progress in the search of the truth.  Did this particular pastor find passages in the Bible to uphold his beliefs that women should been submissive to men and continue in relationships that are unhealthy?  Possibly.  Personally, I can't understand why a man would WANT a women to be a submissive robot, but apparently some do.

I don't expect anyone to be perfect, but some interpretations of "truth" are clearly wrong.  I also think your bolded portion is too broad.  If they don't even try they cannot call themselves one, "true" or not.  Everyone is flawed, but the attempt and the dedication are important.  What is worse is hypocrisy, where one claims a belief or status KNOWING that they do not truly hold it.  Or acceptance of hypocrisy in others.  Equally damning.  Both of those play out prominently on the political stage, and religion and politics are both much worse for it.    

Again...hear you and mostly agree.  However, we can't read minds.  One may truly hold a belief but still violate it.  I absolutely believe lying is a sin, but I've done it.   I absolutely believe we should love one another, but there are people I can't even tolerate - let alone love.  That doesn't make me less than a "true Christian".  Again, it makes me flawed.  I don't know what is in peoples' hearts and minds.  One another thing I know is that everyone...and I mean everyone...has either been a hypocrite or has accepted it in others at some time or another.  Anybody who says they haven't or don't is just plain lying. 

Politics and religion?  Agreed they don't make good bedfellows.  Agreed that there are many who say they believe one way and act in another.  As I've explained, I've been guilty of that.  I can't read minds and I don't know if said person is flawed or just a simple liar.  That's a judgment that isn't mine to make. 

As for religion being the worse for it?  I don't pay attention to people who are unable to have a civil discussion on religion.  I don't pay attention to people who are so afraid of the mere mention of the word that their heads explode.  I don't pay attention to people who yammer on about something they know nothing about.  So I guess I can't tell you if religion is worse off or not.  It isn't for me and that's all I can attest to.

Thank you, by the way, for civil, non-hysterical and actual questioning discussion.  I have to leave for a bit so I'll leave it at that.

[Opti]

I think if some posters want to have a discussion on biblical submission have at it. The problem I have with this guy's views is the readiness to ignore physical harm and potential death from his counseling. If the man is an abuser, it doesn't matter much how his wife or children act. The problem is not with their behavior but with his own emotions which he projects onto them. Since what drives his behavior is out of their control, nothing they do will prevent their abuse. Especially if they stay within easy physical reach.

www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/07/homicides-women/534306/

and

Claim: "3 American women are murdered every day by their husband or boyfriend."

Claimed by: Jackie Speier

Fact check by PolitiFact: Mostly True

[mmhmm]

May 8, 2018 10:39:01 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

It seems a bit inconsistent to me to post a thread about a religious figure and then disallow religion to enter the discussion. I'm still unable to understand why people think they might catch something if the Bible is quoted, but I do try to follow the rules. Maybe this thread should have been posted in the "Religion" section in the first place as it appears to be a bit short-sighted to think that scripture won't be quoted in a thread that posts someone's religious opinion that is based on scripture. 

I think you're absolutely right, GEL. I'll move this thread to Religious Discussion so y'all can discuss it more freely.

mmhmm, Administrator

[swamp]

RIP thread. 

[Opti]

May 9, 2018 12:22:41 GMT -5 swamp said:

RIP thread. 

OK by me. I don't think it had much legs unless people wanted to argue its OK to have women stay with an abuser so she and her children can get killed or possibly just beat up a lot.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Apr 30, 2018 10:47:50 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

The evangelical groups can be very anti-divorce, no matter what.

My DS was had attended a church for a while, then got engaged. When she and her fiancé, (who had divorced his first wife) went to talk to the minister about getting married, and the minster found out about the divorce, he refused to marry them.

The minister said that he had been married to his wife for over 20 years, they hated each other and were miserable every single day, but God had put them together and divorce was impossible.

DS switched to another church......

This happened to my current (and last ) husband with his first wife. His first wife actually told their pastor that she prayed daily for DH's death. When he filed for divorce, the church told my husband he couldn't come back to the church but she still could. 

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Apr 30, 2018 16:21:32 GMT -5 Artemis Windsong said:

Start the exit strategy the first time a fist hits the wall.  It is a short trip to your face then the kids.  My DD hated me until she was in her late 40s when she asked what happened.  She was floored when I said he slapped her when she was 5.  She ran up to jump into his arms for a hug and wham.

Oh wow, I'm so sorry she didn't understand for so long. Good job getting your baby out of there. 

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

May 2, 2018 19:07:31 GMT -5 busymom said:

I was raised in a Christian household, (not evangelical) but Mom still advised me if a man ever starts hitting, to GET OUT immediately.  It only gets worse over time.  Never stay with someone who treats you like their personal property, instead of a fellow human being.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

So, I was just browsing threads because I'm in class right now and playing on here. I don't necessarily know the rules of posting religious discussion in various threads on sub-boards. 
I'm not quite sure why there's a disagreement about what the topic at hand is. 
Maybe it's because all the first post had was the article and no commentary from the original poster? 
We all have different perspectives, and I understand both why people would be annoyed with the subject of the article and why those of us who understand the Biblical context of "marital submission" would be annoyed at the implication of the thread title. 
Can both repsonses not be considered appropriate?

This guy in the article is an ass. 

But equating that Christianity's view of "submission" means "women must submit" with "the man gets to treat the woman any way he wants" is a bit frustrating. 

I'm asking in all seriousness: Is that not okay to say?

[Artemis Windsong]

May 9, 2018 18:46:15 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

Apr 30, 2018 16:21:32 GMT -5 Artemis Windsong said:

Start the exit strategy the first time a fist hits the wall.  It is a short trip to your face then the kids.  My DD hated me until she was in her late 40s when she asked what happened.  She was floored when I said he slapped her when she was 5.  She ran up to jump into his arms for a hug and wham.

Oh wow, I'm so sorry she didn't understand for so long. Good job getting your baby out of there. 

The azhat summers in the same town as the majority of my family live.  He's such a nice guy.  Wrongo kids.

[Deleted]

May 2, 2018 14:50:36 GMT -5 kadee79 said:

May 2, 2018 11:03:26 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

I see the problem all to well, you are stating only the extremes.  They are statistically insignificant for the point I was making about his outlook changing for the better, as a positive.  Using hyperbole/extremes as a point defining a more general issue of abuse, which has many levels of offensive behavior types, simply makes your argument look weak, as a demonizing type approach to the problem.  That will solve nothing.

The whole point of my post was that he hasn't changed his outlook, only what he "might" advise an abuse victim to do or how to react.  He still advocates for NO divorce......
Just curious, how close have you ever come to seeing or being in an abusive relationship?   I was in a verbal one for many years, it never escalated beyond that due to how I reacted, however, I've seen several others that were physically abusive, from mild to extreme!  
That's one of the main reasons I donate to our abused women's & children's shelter here....they need everything. 

In the last eighteen years I've donated a little over $1,000,000 to the local women's shelters in my area.  I truly understand the human behavior involved.

Our only difference in this discussion seems to be the importance placed on the value of staying in a marriage.  Deciding which level/type of disharmony constitutes 'abuse' can be very subjective.

This man obviously thinks marriage has high value worth saving.  This does not mean he condones abuse, or his belief is wrong, any more than another that would leave a marriage for smallest disagreement.

They would be both right.