formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Mar 29, 2011 12:17:31 GMT -5
Your two statistics aren't necessarily related. It can't be assumed that the top 413 families in income are even in the top 2% in wealth.
For example, I'm sure Mike Tyson was in the top 400 income earners once in his life but is flat broke now. Michael Jackson is another example of a person that was a amongst the highest in terms of income but was as poor as a number of people, and potentially negative net worth.
What we do know by studying wealth statistics is that the top 20% of families according to wealth, hold 80% of the financial investments in the country.
It would appear that the top 20% take the risk and put their money in the stock market and other financial investments rather than keeping more of their equity in their home [dead principal] or huge cash savings [which tends to be the investing strategy of the lower 50%]. The top 20% are rewarded for taking such risk and placing their money in the market, where a number of the lower 50 are too risk averse to place their money in the market.
I'm not sure that, as a country, we would want to penalize the risk takers via a wealth tax. That's not a good recipe for growing the economy and creating jobs. Not to mention, there would obviously be unintended consequences of any type of wealth tax that would blow up in the governments face. See MD and NY's millionaire tax as an examples. [/size]
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Mar 29, 2011 12:28:44 GMT -5
It isn't just risk takers. Lots of people make a good income, save a lot and retire comfortably, educate their children and leave a respectable estate. Some risk takers die broke. The difference is that those who would be wealthy don't spend every dollar they can get their hands on so that if they are laid off or run into other financial difficulties, they aren't destitute within weeks {or days]. The big difference is that the 'poor" excuse their lack of preparation and demand that others rescue them when they hit a bump in the road. Many, many people live comfortable lives on modest incomes simply by being responsible. Those that don't don't. It's nobody else's fault.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Mar 29, 2011 14:12:28 GMT -5
It isn't just risk takers. Lots of people make a good income, save a lot and retire comfortably, educate their children and leave a respectable estate. Some risk takers die broke. The difference is that those who would be wealthy don't spend every dollar they can get their hands on so that if they are laid off or run into other financial difficulties, they aren't destitute within weeks {or days]. The big difference is that the 'poor" excuse their lack of preparation and demand that others rescue them when they hit a bump in the road. Many, many people live comfortable lives on modest incomes simply by being responsible. Those that don't don't. It's nobody else's fault. Oh please- the poor don't suffer from a lack of preparation- they suffer from being POOR! They don't have money to invest in anything, they don't even have money to save- more like a battle to see what they will do without on any given month. And if that isn't bad enough, some piece of crap 'risk taking' vulture will come along and charge them usurious interest so they can make ends meet and drive them further into the abyss. I swear some of you are so out of touch with reality. I'm also getting sick of a lot of this bs on how the wealthy earn their money- they may have earned some of it, but once they reach a certain point they can sit back and watch it accumulate. Obviously some of you have no concept of the advantages certain groups of people start out with, or the disadvantages others are stuck with judging by the smug attitudes when it comes to the rich and the poor.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 29, 2011 14:18:05 GMT -5
Oh please- the poor don't suffer from a lack of preparation- they suffer from being POOR! They don't have money to invest in anything, they don't even have money to save- more like a battle to see what they will do without on any given month. And if that isn't bad enough, some piece of crap 'risk taking' vulture will come along and charge them usurious interest so they can make ends meet and drive them further into the abyss. I swear some of you are so out of touch with reality.
I was poor when I was 21. I was earning about $4000 per year and had no money.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 29, 2011 14:19:10 GMT -5
I'm also getting sick of a lot of this bs on how the wealthy earn their money- they may have earned some of it, but once they reach a certain point they can sit back and watch it accumulate. Obviously some of you have no concept of the advantages certain groups of people start out with, or the disadvantages others are stuck with judging by the smug attitudes when it comes to the rich and the poor.
Wally Amos is a multi millionaire. All the fool did was make cookies. Get over yourself for heaven's sake.
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Mar 29, 2011 14:29:17 GMT -5
I and most of us have extensive experience with reality. Sometimes it sucks. I'd say that it's people like you who lack experience in reality. Of course if you sit and whine rather than doing something, you'll become and stay poor.
One of my first bosses came to Florida from Kentucky where he worked for a large finance [small loan] company to start Sun Finance Company in Tampa. That was 1950 and he had saved $50,000 dollars. He was an orphan raised in an orphanage who'd worked his way through college. He and his wife lived in a cheap apartment and "brown bagged" lunch until he and she [the only employees] had earned enough to open a second office. He eventually sold the company for several million dollars [his son, a lawyer, didn't want to run the company] and retired with enough pull to make it [bringing his son along] to the Jose Gaspar Crue in the Gasparilla celebration. He wasn't a particularly generous employer and I left the company, but I never resented his success ~ and I still don't. He deserved to enjoy the fruits of his labor. People like you think you deserve the same although you aren't willing to make the effort. I didn't get rich, but it wasn't my boss's [any of them] fault. It's no one's fault but your own.
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hello fromWarsaw
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on Mar 29, 2011 14:31:12 GMT -5
70% want to tax the rich more. 35% is too low to finance a strong economy. Also, the effective estimated corporate tax rate of 10% is too low. Back to the fifties! (30%)
The Cunningham article is from the "Johnny Appleseed" of Neocon think tanks, total doubletalk apologists of the GREEDY rich.
"Seems to me there are plenty of rich Dems." But not GREEDY rich. They're old style Greatest Generation rich, want to thank the country and the "little people", not blame them for their "laziness". ("Reagan made misery acceptable"- -Mario Cuomo) The money raised from these taxes should train the work force to compete globally. Just under BOOOSH, we fell from #1 to # 12 in college grads. It's NOT a coincidence or "laziness"! Pfffft!
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Mar 29, 2011 14:35:57 GMT -5
That probably makes sense to those stupid enough to think that taxes make a strong economy. Reagan was another good example of a "self made man." Maybe you'd be better off emulating him than sitting on your pity pot 'til you get ring around the ass.
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hello fromWarsaw
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on Mar 29, 2011 14:36:44 GMT -5
This message has been deleted for defamatory content Deminmaine- Moderator
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Mar 29, 2011 14:41:32 GMT -5
Have a nice day.
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hello fromWarsaw
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on Mar 29, 2011 14:43:50 GMT -5
Deleted, content Deminmaine- Moderator
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Mar 29, 2011 14:50:54 GMT -5
I think that Carter deserves credit for starting deregulation. It was a hang over from the fascist Democratic Administrations from 1932-52. We've had some problems with deregulation, but, like democracy, it tends to work better than the alternatives [central planning, fascism]. It's still interesting how wanting to keep what you've earned is greedy and wanting to take what someone else has earned isn't. Not being able to reconcile those is what makes me clueless I suppose.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 29, 2011 14:50:57 GMT -5
Nobody can charge you any interest on money you don't borrow. This inescapable fact drove me to pay off all of my personal debt, and borrow ONLY to leverage investments and never to leverage lifestyle. If you eat three meals a day, plus snacks, and you're fat- don't talk to me about needing to borrow money and an inability to pay off debt. If you drive a car that's newer than my 1997 Honda (I actually almost paid cash for a VERY expensive car last summer for my wife, but she said she didn't want it), that has 177K miles on it- don't talk to me about being in debt and needing to borrow money. If you have your evenings and weekend's free- don't complain to me. If you go on vacations, or even little "weekend trips" - don't complain to me. If you own an HDTV, a PlayStation, XBox, handheld games, have an iPhone, eat out, buy potato chips, fast food, soda, alcohol, or cigarettes-- don't bother to complain to me. I made ridiculous sacrifices once I got my head screwed on straight and decided to pay off all my debt. At one point, I worked three jobs-- I got up at 6:00 a.m. and worked until 2:00 p.m. groundkeeping on a golf course, I went to work at 3:00 p.m. at Domino's Pizza and delivered pies until 11:00 p.m. during the week, and 1:00 a.m. on Fri/Sat. Mon-Fri on the golf course, Mon-Sat running pizzas, and on Saturday and Sunday I worked at the parts department of a car dealership stocking and doing marketing for them. I did that for a little over two years. Although I went to college on the GI Bill because I did four years in Uncle Sam's canoe club, I worked full time while going to school full time. I know what it means to have no time, and I know what it means to truly have no money. However, I've never known the two at the same time. Get busy.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Mar 29, 2011 14:58:27 GMT -5
It isn't just risk takers. Lots of people make a good income, save a lot and retire comfortably, educate their children and leave a respectable estate. Some risk takers die broke. The difference is that those who would be wealthy don't spend every dollar they can get their hands on so that if they are laid off or run into other financial difficulties, they aren't destitute within weeks {or days]. The big difference is that the 'poor" excuse their lack of preparation and demand that others rescue them when they hit a bump in the road. Many, many people live comfortable lives on modest incomes simply by being responsible. Those that don't don't. It's nobody else's fault. Oh please- the poor don't suffer from a lack of preparation- they suffer from being POOR! They don't have money to invest in anything, they don't even have money to save- more like a battle to see what they will do without on any given month. And if that isn't bad enough, some piece of crap 'risk taking' vulture will come along and charge them usurious interest so they can make ends meet and drive them further into the abyss. I swear some of you are so out of touch with reality.Whhhhaaaaa. The man is keeping me down. Whhhaaaaaa Cry me a river. I went through BK in the mid/late 90's and moved to FL in 2000 with everything I owned in the back of a pickup purchased by cashing out the company profit sharing plan after I was laid off. My first job took over 4 months to find and that was earning $10/hr for delivering pipe and fittings to shipyards around Tampa. I "suffered" from being poor but now have a net worth well in to 6 figures...all earned between 2000 and now. I "suffered" from being poor because I made seriously stupid choices, not because of anybody else. Those that think their financial failures are always somebody else's fault will continue to "suffer" from being poor. I'm sure you are. Envy sure is ugly. Getting to the point where you can sit back and watch your wealth grow sure seems like a benefit (and a goal) to me. I'm 100% aware that some people have serious advantage over others. Some are smarter than others. Some are more physically fit than others. Some are better looking than others. Some have richer families than others. Some are harder working than others. IMHO, if you come up short in one area, find a way to make it up in another. I'm also 100% aware that I'm in control of my life, not somebody else. Hell, IMHO, I'm lazy and I admit I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed but even I have managed to generate a decent NW in less than a dozen years. Nothing was handed to me at all. If I want to earn more, I work harder, smarter or both. If not, I come here and whine about how others are keeping me down, I suffer from being poor, I'm a victim of the oppressive rich man, I make slave's wages, my boss is an ass, nothing is ever my own fault....whatever. All BS excuses. Generally (and yes there are exceptions - hence the word generally), the rich are rich because they tend to continually do those things that generate wealth. The poor are poor because they tend to continually do the things that destroy wealth. Ok libs...have fun flaming.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Mar 29, 2011 15:01:03 GMT -5
I'm also 100% aware that I'm in control of my life, not somebody else. Hell, IMHO, I'm lazy and I admit I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed but even I have managed to generate a decent NW in less than a dozen years. Nothing was handed to me at all. If I want to earn more, I work harder, smarter or both. If not, I come here and whine about how others are keeping me down, I suffer from being poor, I'm a victim of the oppressive rich man, I make slave's wages, my boss is an ass, nothing is ever my own fault....whatever. All BS excuses. Generally (and yes there are exceptions - hence the word generally), the rich are rich because they tend to continually do those things that generate wealth. The poor are poor because they tend to continually do the things that destroy wealth. Ok libs...have fun flaming.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Mar 29, 2011 15:02:23 GMT -5
Haven't you learned yet Safe....
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hello fromWarsaw
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on Mar 29, 2011 15:03:31 GMT -5
Today at 12:13am, hello fromWarsaw wrote:Horse patoot. The top 2% have doubled their wealth under voodoo, the top 1% quadrupled, and the top 413 families make as much as the bottom 60% of the population. The rich/poor gap has never been as big, upward mobility never so low. 70% believe the rich should be taxed more, and nothing happens. Pffffft!
"Okay, but the question is, "What would you consider rich?" If you look at the cost of living in New York City or San Francisco, it's hugely different from the cost of living in other areas of the country. $100-150K does not go nearly as far. So how do you determine WHO is going to pay more? "
Looks like, above 250K- 39%, over 1 million 45-50%, over 10 million-55-60% as I see it. The Dem rich seem to be asking for it.
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Post by ed1066 on Mar 29, 2011 15:04:06 GMT -5
You certainly make plenty of stupid personal insults w/o knowing a dam* thing about people. Do you know how to debate facts AT ALL? Considering the veracity of the propaganda article you've presented, I would guess you are TOTALLY clueless example of the above. ;D We have NOTHING against self made men, but the COUNTRY has gone to Hel*, and is going to HEL* under greedy pub tax policy, not to mention the deregulation. You sound like a guy I worked with at a restaurant when I was in college...the pissed off dishwasher who dropped out of high school and moaned about how the waitresses were making all the tips and how the owner (who worked his ass off seven days a week and was decidedly middle class) was getting rich off everyone else's sweat...LOL! What a joke!
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Mar 29, 2011 15:04:48 GMT -5
Haven't you learned yet Safe.... Especially when he's cranky.
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hello fromWarsaw
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on Mar 29, 2011 15:18:31 GMT -5
WE''RE NOT TALKING ABOUT OURSELVES, WE"RE TALKING ABOUT THE COUNTRY AND ALL THE PEOPLE. The article that begins this thread is Pub Propaganda, doesn't mean squat. You all seem to be saying, "I suffered under Reaganomics, so should everyone else! While our college rate plummets, our rich/poor gap and upward mobility go to hell, and our health care costs skyrocket. Namecalling, stupid insults,and anecdotes aren't political argument.
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hello fromWarsaw
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on Mar 29, 2011 15:21:44 GMT -5
They are what pub dupes do though . And pub dupe is not a personal insult, it's your politics. And Ed, I've got a Masters in French Civ, am certified World and American History teacher. Wrong AGAIN! ;D
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Mar 29, 2011 15:25:28 GMT -5
WE''RE NOT TALKING ABOUT OURSELVES, WE"RE TALKING ABOUT THE COUNTRY AND ALL THE PEOPLE. The article that begins this thread is Pub Propaganda, doesn't mean squat. You all seem to be saying, "I suffered under Reaganomics, so should everyone else! While our college rate plummets, our rich/poor gap and upward mobility go to hell, and our health care costs skyrocket. Namecalling, stupid insults,and anecdotes aren't political argument. College attendance in my area is at a record high this year.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Mar 29, 2011 15:27:42 GMT -5
for what it is worth - your usage of pup dupe is taken as an insult and by your usage of the term, it is hard to believe anything other than you mean as an insult
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hello fromWarsaw
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on Mar 29, 2011 15:30:33 GMT -5
Do y'all have ANY facts or solutions? Just some bogus article that "proves" the poor rich are losing their shirts? LOL! While we're becoming a banana republic, ruled by413 families, with you going along out of ignorance. I don't really blame you, they have a GREAT propaganda machine, always have.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Mar 29, 2011 15:31:49 GMT -5
This is the only pub dupe I know about. In fact...an exact dupe of the first one <burp>
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Mar 29, 2011 15:32:22 GMT -5
Wrong about what? I didn't catch Ed questioning your teaching credentials. However, you apparently think that it relates to something. The question is what? I don't recall anyone claiming that that or any article "proves" anything. I did however suggest that it wouldn't hurt to read something that differed from the mainstream spiel. Is it that to which you refer?
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hello fromWarsaw
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on Mar 29, 2011 15:35:43 GMT -5
If you're called a dupe, you take it hard if you fear it's true. Defend your politics then. That's the point of a book I wrote and I'm sticking with it. Fox/Rush/Pub bloggers/Pubs do lie all the time. As a country we CAN'T get past that, and never get to solutions...
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hello fromWarsaw
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on Mar 29, 2011 15:38:05 GMT -5
There is NO evidence the rich produce more jobs when not taxed enough. All we do is ruin the infrastructure and upward mobility (education).
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 29, 2011 15:39:19 GMT -5
Do y'all have ANY facts or solutions? Just some bogus article that "proves" the poor rich are losing their shirts? LOL! While we're becoming a banana republic, ruled by413 families, with you going along out of ignorance. I don't really blame you, they have a GREAT propaganda machine, always have.
Any middle class, numb-nuts fool can easily have a minimum of $1 million in net worth by the time they are 40 years of age.
Everyone here knows I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, yet, inspite of having to pay $1000 per month child support for 8 years, earning well under $100K until a few years ago, my net worth is over $1 million.
The US may be turning in to a banana republic, it is not due to some people holding a lot of wealth. In fact, the top two richest Americans are democrats. George Soros comes in at #14. (source: forbes list of the top 400 wealthiest Americans, March 2011)
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 29, 2011 15:40:48 GMT -5
There is NO evidence the rich produce more jobs when not taxed enough. All we do is ruin the infrastructure and upward mobility (education).
54 months of job growth followed the 2003 tax cuts.
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