swamp
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THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Dec 29, 2017 10:01:37 GMT -5
There was a blurb in my local online news source about 3 new volunteer firefighters being approved for a local village. Volunteer firefighters must be approved by the village board. All 3 firefighters are female.
Interesting development.
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chapeau
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Post by chapeau on Dec 29, 2017 12:04:00 GMT -5
The department DH belongs to has several women firefighters. I believe they’re all qualified mask men (they wear the scuba gear and don’t just run pumps, hoses, drive, etc). DH thinks I should do it. I would make one heck of a safety officer, because I don’t take s$@t from anyone, but I do not have what it takes to deliberately go into a burning building. The FD in the town we actually live in, however, won’t take women or African-Americans. Or rather they will take women, then sexually harass them right back out. Of course, they’re down to 3 mask men and 4 guys who drive and pump, so that problem is taking care of itself. When DH and I first got married he belonged to that department. He coaxed me into going to a recruitment event. One of the old guys told me I could join the department when I could “carry your husband out of s burning building.” I told him by that criteria he wasn’t qualified to fight fire, either, then told him which of the brothers I was married to. DH weighed 325 pounds. No way 1 person was carrying him anywhere. DH and his brothers changed departments soon after.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Dec 29, 2017 17:47:03 GMT -5
My small town has several female firefighters and EMTs. The volunteers are getting so old, we are very thankful for their time. chapeau Why won't your town take "women or African-Americans"? That is wrong. There are many qualified women and African-Americans. Where do people get off thinking like that? As your volunteers ago out of the system, the town will be sorry.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 29, 2017 18:14:28 GMT -5
My small town has several female firefighters and EMTs. The volunteers are getting so old, we are very thankful for their time. chapeau Why won't your town take "women or African-Americans"? That is wrong. There are many qualified women and African-Americans. Where do people get off thinking like that? As your volunteers ago out of the system, the town will be sorry. It sounds like they'll take them, but it's going to be so uncomfortable for them that they won't stay. Probably similar to lots of groups past & present (all white male golf clubs, traditionally black colleges, some churches, social groups, etc). Groups that have traditionally been homogenous and want to stay homogenous may technically allow other members...but there's not a lot of reason for those members to want to continue given the environment.
The town might be sorry...but it's probably not the town making the decision to "keep them out". It's most likely the small group of current volunteers...so what is the town to do? Get rid of all the current volunteers and leave themselves in an even worse situation? That's part of the problem with volunteer units like this...you've got to keep them happy because your alternative likely means having 1. No fire protection. 2. Shelling out for paid people. 3. Having fire protection from people with little/no experience.
It's a similar situation where we're at (though with less sexism/racism). We have a relatively small volunteer department. It is mostly run by one family who has a ton of volunteers, but it is poorly run for the most part. When a few aged out and retired, a new non-family leader was selected. The family basically decided to all quit thinking they'd force a reconsideration. So now we have a fire squad about 50% the size of what it used to be. When a few fires broke out in the last few months we were kind of screwed...there just aren't enough people volunteering. Neighboring towns sent help and things eventually got put out...but we're going to be understaffed for quite a while because volunteers aren't just coming out of the woodwork here. That was about 50% of the unit...imagine how screwed people are if the entire unit just up and leaves...it might be years of undermanned protection (probably takes a lawsuit against someone discriminated against before any real change happens...it's not going to happen voluntarily in lots of these places).
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Dec 29, 2017 19:59:08 GMT -5
I am in rural Iowa. We currently have an ambulance. Problem is that there are very few jobs here so the volunteers don't work in town. There are enough volunteers in town for fires, but not EMTs. If younger people don't volunteer, the volunteer fire department will end up closing and we will have to rely on the county. That means longer response times.
The one here is made up of mostly 4 or 5 families. I know there are a lot of politics and unkindness towards outsiders as I have been on the receiving end.
I worked the election in November and a woman insisted I couldn't live here because she didn't know me. What she really meant was that I don't go to her church. I've lived here 8 years and will never attend her church except for maybe a funeral or wedding.
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chapeau
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Post by chapeau on Dec 29, 2017 20:13:02 GMT -5
What hoops902 said. In addition to the half dozen active firefighters, there are many old or out of shape guys who can vote on department decisions, such as who to admit, who really run the show. The vast majority of the department is made up of old(er) men who have been in the department since they were in their teens. None of them are active, firefighting members. They get to vote because they’ve been in forever, help with fundraising, etc. To be honest, the town population is probably 1-2% African-American ( literally, I can think of 4), and I don’t know that any of them have ever tried to apply, but considering that members openly use that word as a descriptor, I would bet all of my retirement savings on the welcome they would receive. Actually, our town may be a little bit better off than hoops’ because enough people have been thrown out by the special fire people, quit in disgust, or joined a neighboring department that isn’t run by bigots that we could probably actually have a larger group to actually fight fires than we have now if the current one was disbanded. I really believe that a lawsuit is coming. I don’t want that, because innocent townspeople will be the ones stuck paying the judgment in the form of higher taxes. If the plaintiff would be willing to go for a judgment of her attorney’s fees and the old guard permanently banned, I’d go round up women I know who were driven out. Heck, I’d chip in to hire an attorney who would just bill by the hour and not push for a huge cash settlement. I remember when the first woman was elected to the town council. I was around 10, and fairly well read, with a pretty good vocabulary. But I had to ask my uncle who had been in the army what several of the words I heard being used to describe her meant. My mom either didn’t know or couldn’t figure out whatvto tell me. That was very educational. Several of those people are still on council or influential around town. We just got one voted out last year. He joined the fire department.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 29, 2017 20:49:59 GMT -5
Ugh. Sounds like Stayton, Oregon.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 20:52:43 GMT -5
They need a group of three like swamps group.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Dec 30, 2017 10:16:46 GMT -5
Volunteering for ANYTHING in small towns is always an unnecessary challenge if you weren't born there AND if your family wasn't one of the founding families of the town. 😖
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chapeau
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Post by chapeau on Dec 30, 2017 12:14:38 GMT -5
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Dec 30, 2017 14:18:35 GMT -5
I don't like my comment, either, chapeau.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Dec 30, 2017 14:44:46 GMT -5
Anyone that can pass the requirements of the job should be accepted. I do worry that we are so much for women being equal to men that we overlook physical differences. But assuming that everyone passes the exact same test then I think it is awesome.
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Dec 30, 2017 15:17:21 GMT -5
My SIL is a paramedic and is training to also be a volunteer firefighter since one of the companies she runs with is a firehouse.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Dec 30, 2017 15:30:37 GMT -5
Firemen really don't fight that many fires. And when they do, most of the time they aren't carrying grown men out of a burning building. Firemen can easily go months, or even a year without seeing an actual fire.
They have a lot of other duties, and hoisting grown adults on their shoulders are not part of those duties either. Mostly, they do EMT work. They go to car accidents and make sure nothing goes on fire. Etc.
As long as women can carry their equipment, they might be good firefighters.
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Jan 7, 2018 12:01:13 GMT -5
thyme, you are out of touch. I have over 45 years in as a volunteer. We get some sort of fire almost weekly. It is not often that you have to carry someone out of a burning building, but you must be capable of doing so. Most of my career, I was over 300 lbs, but knew my partner could get me out or would die trying. BTW, it is more like drag them out. You don't want to get too high.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 7, 2018 12:35:42 GMT -5
thyme, you are out of touch. I have over 45 years in as a volunteer. We get some sort of fire almost weekly. It is not often that you have to carry someone out of a burning building, but you must be capable of doing so. Most of my career, I was over 300 lbs, but knew my partner could get me out or would die trying. BTW, it is more like drag them out. You don't want to get too high. I'm repeating national and local statistics that my friendly firefighter was saying. Maybe your area burns more. www.usfa.fema.gov/data/statistics/1.3M fires per year and 1.1M firefighters. If there are 10 fighters at each fire, that is maybe one per month. Why you get so many, I don't know.
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Jan 7, 2018 13:00:08 GMT -5
Lotsa old folks and now some trailer trash moving in. Car fires, cooking incidents, fires, etc. More and more lately. Luckily response time is usually 2 minutes or less.
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Jan 7, 2018 13:13:46 GMT -5
Most of the FD around here are struggling for volunteers or at least they were until about 4-5 years ago when a couple fires took place at farms owned by Amish man. The FDs made it to the fire and just tried to control the spread because they didn’t really have enough manpower to take it on while the Amish watched helplessly. A complain rose from the Amish community and the local FD had to go and have a meeting with the community and explained them the cause of it. Within the next month their community decided that it’s about time that they join the FD and that while on duty they are exempt from certain traditional rules. On of the FD has about 15 of them in the ranks from a total of about 30 in the Company.
In this day and age when women had proven that they can do anything including field soldiering why not have them in the FD? What can a man do that a woman can’t? Burping and farting and chugging down pitchers of beer? Flash news for those that live in a fantasy world: women can do that too and some are quite good at it!
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Jan 7, 2018 13:27:00 GMT -5
Mroped, I have no problem with women in the fire service. I would only go in a fire with them if they are larger and capable of getting me out if need be. Same rule for guys.
What is killing the volunteers now, is the idiotic amount of training required, before they can fight a fire. My training was find Joe or Mike, they will show you what to do. Now, a minimum of 188 hours.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Jan 7, 2018 14:00:46 GMT -5
Mroped, I have no problem with women in the fire service. I would only go in a fire with them if they are larger and capable of getting me out if need be. Same rule for guys. What is killing the volunteers now, is the idiotic amount of training required, before they can fight a fire. My training was find Joe or Mike, they will show you what to do. Now, a minimum of 188 hours. Isn’t it great to have the politicians and bureaucrats “help” run your fire department? Here in NV, we see similar requirements being imposed on volunteers for a variety of activities. The regulation is killing people’s ability and willingness to volunteer for the more demanding of volunteer activities.
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Jan 7, 2018 14:02:44 GMT -5
tskeeter, Just to see what they were about, I took some of the courses, (by the time they came out, I was grandfathered). Guess what? I learned much more from Joe and Mike.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jan 7, 2018 14:10:56 GMT -5
If all you have is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail.
Guys who have been fire fighters for years think new recruits should have to pass the same tests they did, because that's the only system they know. They've received years of training and reinforcement in that way of thinking, so that's the only way they can possibly see working.
Of course any candidate to be a fire fighter should have to pass the physical requirements of the job, but I suspect many of the current physical tests don't reflect the exact reality of the job. For example, Bluerobin said he was over 300 pounds, do the tests require each man to lift and carry more than 300 pounds? Probably not. Because that's not what they'd actually do. As Blue himself stated, they'd drag him out. Well guess what - many fit women could drag out most men, too. So if the reality is bigger people are dragged out, then the physical test should be that a candidate has to drag X weight (maybe the average weight of the firefighters?) Y number of feet.
Heck, looking at it another way wouldn't most people rather fight a fire with a partner who is a fit but smaller woman than a 300 pound guy who sounds like a heart attack waiting to happen and would be an absolute bear to try to drag out once he did have his heart attack? It goes both ways, the candidates should be able to drag out the average fire fighter, but at the same time the advantages of having lighter firefighters - easier to drag out, can walk on surfaces unsafe for a 300 pounder, can get through blockages easier, less likely to have a coronary on the job - should also be given credit.
Reexamine the tests and make the tests reflect the reality of the job and then let whoever can pass the tests be a firefighter. It's the first part that's the huge cultural change.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jan 7, 2018 14:18:46 GMT -5
By the way, it's pretty ironic that we feel perfectly comfortable dictating what physical strength the women would need to have to do the job (not unreasonable by the way), but nobody seems to feel comfy suggesting it's not OK for the men to gain weight so that they're 300+ pounds - a weight where most other firefighters might have to die trying to drag their bulk out of the fire and which for all but NFL linebackers is also associated with being less than fit. Both are perfectly reasonable requests if we're looking at it from the standpoint of - must be able to do the job so you don't kill other people.
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Jan 7, 2018 14:50:17 GMT -5
milee, I recently lost from 336 down to 272. I am svelte. Yup, I am rather large.
You drag people because generally getting them up too high subjects them to noxious smoke and fumes. By the same token, you do not drag them too low, because there are dangerous gases near the floor. Your kind of thinking is what has decimated the volunteer fire fighting forces. Too many tests, too many requirements. Rest assured, I never went in with someone who was not capable of getting me out. Don't think short and fat, think tall. The last suit I bought was 56 XLXT. Best thing about a "worker" was I could lose 15 pounds fighting it! Whenever you go into a fire, you have about 40 pounds of gear on and with you, plus you are dragging a hose. You gotta be able to handle it. Know whereof you speak, do not emulate the legislators.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jan 7, 2018 15:02:36 GMT -5
At 272, a man would need to be more than 6'8" tall to be less than "obese" and to be merely overweight. At 336, a man would need to be 7'5" to be less than obese and to be merely overweight. To be normal weight at 272, a man would need to be 7'3" or taller.
Let's be real - those sizes are not common for firefighters. It would be a heck of a lot more practical to require fire fighters be under a certain size and weight so normal sized humans could drag them than it would be to require all fire fighters be able to drag even a 272 pound person out of a fire.
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Jan 7, 2018 15:12:52 GMT -5
Milee, I am larger than 99.67% of the world population. I may be a little off on the .67. My 6'3" cousin once said to me "well, I am tall too." I advised that I never considered him tall. Most of my gear was custom made. I usually got interesting jobs - "like watch the homeowner, he is threatening our guys." But going in was my fav!
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milee
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Post by milee on Jan 7, 2018 15:18:56 GMT -5
Yes, you are larger than 99.67% of the population. Can't you see that this is just as dangerous for your fellow firefighters as a 95 pound person who is too weak to drag a normal person would be? The rest of the normal sized fire fighters will have to risk their lives to drag you out of a building if you go down - that's risking their life because you are so large.
My point is that from the traditional viewpoint - could you drag a fellow firefighter out - you would qualify based on the current physical tests because the current tests only test whether you can drag someone else. This is a very one sided way of looking at things, though, in that there is no test that points out how your large size endangers others.
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Jan 7, 2018 15:50:54 GMT -5
Yes, you are larger than 99.67% of the population. Can't you see that this is just as dangerous for your fellow firefighters as a 95 pound person who is too weak to drag a normal person would be? The rest of the normal sized fire fighters will have to risk their lives to drag you out of a building if you go down - that's risking their life because you are so large. My point is that from the traditional viewpoint - could you drag a fellow firefighter out - you would qualify based on the current physical tests because the current tests only test whether you can drag someone else. This is a very one sided way of looking at things, though, in that there is no test that points out how your large size endangers others. Like I said, know whereof you speak. You are assuming fat. Shame on you. You don't go into fires alone, and you do not go in with someone who is incapable of getting you out.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jan 7, 2018 16:07:20 GMT -5
And you are defensive about your weight so you're missing my point.
In the past, the main reason the male fire fighters stated for not allowing women was that women would endanger the men. The claim was that women would not be strong enough to pull a man to safety.
Your very size - whether or not you're fit, fat or something in between - endangers the men. Your partner would feel compelled to die trying to pull you to safety, which endangers him.
But nobody is going around saying it's a safety issue to allow large and/or hugely unfit guys to be firefighters. It endangers the other firefighters, but it's OK because nobody looks at it like that. If you look at the statistics, instead of not allowing women because they might not be able to pull out a 300 pound guy who just had a heart attack, it might be smarter to allow women who could pull out 200 pound people and ban the big guys. Statistically, you'd have more people that would be eligible and it would be safer for everyone involved.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 7, 2018 17:19:22 GMT -5
My big question would be can you fit through a window with your gear on?
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