Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 31, 2018 11:38:52 GMT -5
Once again, on yet another topic, the GOP now loses all credibility - I don't want to hear another whine about Hillary and her damn private server - EVER.
You seem to be assuming everyone not skeptical about the conspiracy will approve of the memo's release even if Mr. Rosenstein and Mr. Wray's warnings are sound. But this group won't include me. I'll gladly condemn Ms. Clinton and Pres. Trump both if I'm convinced he's being reckless. That will depend on the contents of the memo. And while I believe damage is as damage does when it comes to national security, for others you'll have to overcome the fact that the President has the authority to decide what's classified and what isn't (a privilege not granted to the SoS). Hence even if Pres. Trump is genuinely compromising the agencies' intel-gathering abilities, he's clearly not breaking any regulations or laws in doing so.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 31, 2018 11:43:19 GMT -5
releasing this memo adds congress to the obstruction investigation.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jan 31, 2018 12:22:17 GMT -5
Once again, on yet another topic, the GOP now loses all credibility - I don't want to hear another whine about Hillary and her damn private server - EVER.
You seem to be assuming everyone not skeptical about the conspiracy will approve of the memo's release even if Mr. Rosenstein and Mr. Wray's warnings are sound. But this group won't include me. I'll gladly condemn Ms. Clinton and Pres. Trump both if I'm convinced he's being reckless. That will depend on the contents of the memo. And while I believe damage is as damage does when it comes to national security, for others you'll have to overcome the fact that the President has the authority to decide what's classified and what isn't (a privilege not granted to the SoS). Hence even if Pres. Trump is genuinely compromising the agencies' intel-gathering abilities, he's clearly not breaking any regulations or laws in doing so. I'm not assuming anything.
I'm stating that those people who were pulling out their hair and rending their garments over the treasonous, terrorist supporting, explosively dangerous emails Hillary sent over her private email (Lock her up!) from this point forward can no longer say one further word about Bengazi! Emails! - never ever. They've lost that right.
If you weren't one of the ones wanting to put Clinton in front of a firing squad, then this doesn't concern you.
As for Trump not breaking any laws by doing it - sure, he's legally able to do it. DOJ has asked him not to, in the interest of national security. To me, that's bigger even than a legal issue. That's a national security issue. Which apparently, is no longer very important, in Trumplandia.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jan 31, 2018 14:20:23 GMT -5
FBI director Wray opposes releasing the 'memo.'
www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-31/trump-says-100-percent-after-he-s-asked-to-release-gop-memo
Because it contains inaccurate information and paints a false narrative.
This is Christopher Wray, nominated by George W to be the Assistant Attorney General in charge of the justice department criminal division, appointed to head the FBI by Trump himself, died in the wool Georgia Republican Christopher Wray.
Apparently, those damn dark matter/black hat guys have replaced the real Wray with one of Hillary's death clones and he's now turned away from the light of justice, truth, hope and the American way. It's the only logical explanation for why he would go against Trump.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 31, 2018 15:02:45 GMT -5
this will be a good measure of how much in danger our democracy is. if the right wing #fakenewsmachine can convince a fair number of people that this is real, i hold out little hope for the US. if, on the other hand, a more honest narrative is allowed to compete, and prevails (or forces a standoff) in this debate, i am far more hopeful.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 31, 2018 15:25:10 GMT -5
As for Trump not breaking any laws by doing it - sure, he's legally able to do it. DOJ has asked him not to, in the interest of national security. To me, that's bigger even than a legal issue. That's a national security issue. Which apparently, is no longer very important, in Trumplandia. By "DoJ", you're referring to two men, Rosenstein and Wray, the former supposedly indicted in the memo. Plus you have an army of congressmen who (I can only assume) don't consider the memo a national security risk. We're going to have to read the thing to find out who's right, wouldn't you say? On one hand, perhaps the GOP really has thrown all caution to the wind and is jeopardizing national security. On the other, "jeopardizing national security" may be bureaucratic doublespeak for "embarrass the DoJ (and especially the FBI)," which I doubt would surprise anybody at this point. ETA: Today's WSJ op ed called for the release of the memo, suggesting the reluctance may be due to Snowden-esque revelations about ghastly abuses of power by the US intel agencies. I don't think this is likely, but it wouldn't shock me either.
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Post by tallguy on Jan 31, 2018 15:33:33 GMT -5
this will be a good measure of how much in danger our democracy is. if the right wing #fakenewsmachine can convince a fair number of people that this is real, i hold out little hope for the US. if, on the other hand, a more honest narrative is allowed to compete, and prevails (or forces a standoff) in this debate, i am far more hopeful. Don't be hopeful. With the Republicans voting to release their own memo, and voting not to allow the release of one written by the Democrats to counter what they claim is false information, there seems little reason to think that getting the truth out is even on the radar. The GOP members are only interested in getting their version into the public eye, and considering their history and the aims of this administration it is pretty much a guarantee that there will not be a bit of real truth in it. Sad that it will require a leak to even get a competing narrative out there, regardless of any legitimate national security questions. There is no honor left in the GOP, and worse, they voluntarily sacrificed it themselves on the altar of the most corrupt person ever elected.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jan 31, 2018 15:36:28 GMT -5
By "DoJ", you're referring to two men, Rosenstein and Wray, the former supposedly indicted in the memo. Plus you have an army of congressmen who (I can only assume) don't consider the memo a national security risk. Or - the need to appease their president is greater than their national security risk concerns. We're going to have to read the thing to find out who's right, wouldn't you say? On one hand, perhaps the GOP really has thrown all caution to the wind and is jeopardizing national security. On the other, "jeopardizing national security" may be bureaucratic doublespeak for "embarrass the DoJ (and especially the FBI)," which I doubt would surprise anybody at this point. There is a third option - Nunes (or his flunkies) cherry picked inflammatory statements out of context with the intent of discrediting the DOJ, and the DOJ is trying to keep these half truth/lies from being paraded out as 'truthiness' when they know just how warped/incorrect they are. I don't think it matters much - I have a feeling someone along the way will leak the entire statement, not the cherry picked parts, so that those Americans who want to see the whole document and not what Nunes or his minions highlighted with their yellow highlighters.
Of course, the GOP will shriek about leaking and demand an investigation, like they always do, except when the leaks benefit them.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 31, 2018 15:39:37 GMT -5
I don't think it matters much - I have a feeling someone along the way will leak the entire statement, not the cherry picked parts, so that those Americans who want to see the whole document and not what Nunes or his minions highlighted with their yellow highlighters. I have a feeling your feeling is right. Incidentally, I added an ETA to my previous post after you replied.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 31, 2018 15:58:18 GMT -5
this will be a good measure of how much in danger our democracy is. if the right wing #fakenewsmachine can convince a fair number of people that this is real, i hold out little hope for the US. if, on the other hand, a more honest narrative is allowed to compete, and prevails (or forces a standoff) in this debate, i am far more hopeful. Don't be hopeful. With the Republicans voting to release their own memo, and voting not to allow the release of one written by the Democrats to counter what they claim is false information, there seems little reason to think that getting the truth out is even on the radar. The GOP members are only interested in getting their version into the public eye, and considering their history and the aims of this administration it is pretty much a guarantee that there will not be a bit of real truth in it. Sad that it will require a leak to even get a competing narrative out there, regardless of any legitimate national security questions. There is no honor left in the GOP, and worse, they voluntarily sacrificed it themselves on the altar of the most corrupt person ever elected. a fellow can't make a conditional statement around here? i am deeply cynical, TG.
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Post by dezii on Jan 31, 2018 16:17:42 GMT -5
Don't be hopeful. With the Republicans voting to release their own memo, and voting not to allow the release of one written by the Democrats to counter what they claim is false information, there seems little reason to think that getting the truth out is even on the radar. The GOP members are only interested in getting their version into the public eye, and considering their history and the aims of this administration it is pretty much a guarantee that there will not be a bit of real truth in it. Sad that it will require a leak to even get a competing narrative out there, regardless of any legitimate national security questions. There is no honor left in the GOP, and worse, they voluntarily sacrificed it themselves on the altar of the most corrupt person ever elected. a fellow can't make a conditional statement around here? i am deeply cynical, TG. Not sure I will be here to see it but when the political map of the country changes..it will, always does, and the shoe is on the other foot. I would love to hear the squealing from the other side as some payback is levied...as I am sure it will and should.
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Post by tallguy on Jan 31, 2018 16:18:17 GMT -5
Don't be hopeful. With the Republicans voting to release their own memo, and voting not to allow the release of one written by the Democrats to counter what they claim is false information, there seems little reason to think that getting the truth out is even on the radar. The GOP members are only interested in getting their version into the public eye, and considering their history and the aims of this administration it is pretty much a guarantee that there will not be a bit of real truth in it. Sad that it will require a leak to even get a competing narrative out there, regardless of any legitimate national security questions. There is no honor left in the GOP, and worse, they voluntarily sacrificed it themselves on the altar of the most corrupt person ever elected. a fellow can't make a conditional statement around here? i am deeply cynical, TG. Sure you can, but under what condition is there really any hope? How many on the right are willing to stand up for truth? Nobody in this administration, certainly, and likely very few in Congress. Are there some conservatives who will not be overrun by the avalanche of bull****? Sure, but who will be left to lead them in their pursuit of real truth? Do I sound cynical?
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 31, 2018 16:36:09 GMT -5
a fellow can't make a conditional statement around here? i am deeply cynical, TG. Sure you can, but under what condition is there really any hope? How many on the right are willing to stand up for truth? Nobody in this administration, certainly, and likely very few in Congress. Are there some conservatives who will not be overrun by the avalanche of bull****? Sure, but who will be left to lead them in their pursuit of real truth? Do I sound cynical? the fact that i can IMAGINE a solution does not make me an optimist. and yes, you do.
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Post by tallguy on Jan 31, 2018 16:49:34 GMT -5
Sure you can, but under what condition is there really any hope? How many on the right are willing to stand up for truth? Nobody in this administration, certainly, and likely very few in Congress. Are there some conservatives who will not be overrun by the avalanche of bull****? Sure, but who will be left to lead them in their pursuit of real truth? Do I sound cynical? the fact that i can IMAGINE a solution does not make me an optimist.and yes, you do. True, I just didn't want anyone else confused.
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Post by dezii on Jan 31, 2018 16:57:20 GMT -5
a fellow can't make a conditional statement around here? i am deeply cynical, TG. Sure you can, but under what condition is there really any hope? How many on the right are willing to stand up for truth? Nobody in this administration, certainly, and likely very few in Congress. Are there some conservatives who will not be overrun by the avalanche of bull****? Sure, but who will be left to lead them in their pursuit of real truth? Do I sound cynical? If u watch that clip that Tenn put up...and I realize it was only two/three people speaking ...yet u saw the long lines in back of them...all supporters of the man...and yes we have had marches of thousands with our more liberal out looks...yet after hearing them speak and answer as they do , I realize while they may be great folks, I have absolutely nothing in common with them..they could be from pluto and I from Mars...very scary and uncomfortable...guess I could say the same here...possible always been this divide but it seemed never so apparent as it has today... Since I have lived with five Republican POTUS , actually six now, and never felt this way before under the past five, I lay the blame of this discontent, this devide squarely on the Donald...100%...
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 31, 2018 17:11:08 GMT -5
The GOP members are only interested in getting their version into the public eye, and considering their history and the aims of this administration it is pretty much a guarantee that there will not be a bit of real truth in it. What precedent(s) are you basing this on? Remember, Pres. Trump didn't author this memo, commission it, or (to be the best of my knowledge) contribute to it in any way. Hence you can't rest your argument on his penchant for dishonesty. Furthermore, you should cite at least one recent example of the GOP releasing a (near-)totally false report to justify the claim "there will not be a bit of real truth in [the memo]" ex ante. You wouldn't want to turn into the "raging Democrat who refuses to accept the legitimately-elected government" Mr. Greenfield decries in the "Second Civil War" thread.
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Post by tallguy on Jan 31, 2018 17:31:04 GMT -5
The GOP members are only interested in getting their version into the public eye, and considering their history and the aims of this administration it is pretty much a guarantee that there will not be a bit of real truth in it. What precedent(s) are you basing this on? Remember, Pres. Trump didn't author this memo, commission it, or (to be the best of my knowledge) contribute to it in any way. Hence you can't rest your argument on his penchant for dishonesty. Furthermore, you should cite at least one recent example of the GOP releasing a (near-)totally false report to justify the claim "there will not be a bit of real truth in [the memo]" ex ante. You wouldn't want to turn into the "raging Democrat who refuses to accept the legitimately-elected government" Mr. Greenfield decries in the "Second Civil War" thread. First, the knowledge that they are releasing their own version which even the intelligence agencies are warning against, while not allowing the release of a competing version, is evidence of not wanting anything other than their own political ends to be seen or met. Further, I wouldn't be too sure that the Trump administration did not have a hand in this memo. It was reportedly written by Devin Nunes and/or his staff. Nunes was an advisor to the Trump transition team, and was already otherwise questionable after his illegitimate in-person meetings last year with the White House while he was heading the House investigation. There is not even an appearance of objectivity on Nunes' part. Whether Trump or his operatives had a hand in the memo itself, there is little doubt it would have been done on his behalf simply based on Nunes' participation. link
And if it matters, I am not a Democrat. I'm certainly not a Republican, but I'm not a Democrat. And I have never claimed that Trump was not legitimately elected. Only that he is the most unqualified and most corrupt person ever elected, well on his way to being the worst president in history, and a singular danger to what America stands for and our position as a world leader.
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Post by happyhoix on Jan 31, 2018 17:48:02 GMT -5
What precedent(s) are you basing this on? Remember, Pres. Trump didn't author this memo, commission it, or (to be the best of my knowledge) contribute to it in any way. Hence you can't rest your argument on his penchant for dishonesty. Furthermore, you should cite at least one recent example of the GOP releasing a (near-)totally false report to justify the claim "there will not be a bit of real truth in [the memo]" ex ante. You wouldn't want to turn into the "raging Democrat who refuses to accept the legitimately-elected government" Mr. Greenfield decries in the "Second Civil War" thread. First, the knowledge that they are releasing their own version which even the intelligence agencies are warning against, while not allowing the release of a competing version, is evidence of not wanting anything other than their own political ends to be seen or met. Further, I wouldn't be too sure that the Trump administration did not have a hand in this memo. It was reportedly written by Devin Nunes and/or his staff. Nunes was an advisor to the Trump transition team, and was already otherwise questionable after his illegitimate in-person meetings last year with the White House while he was heading the House investigation. There is not even an appearance of objectivity on Nunes' part. Whether Trump or his operatives had a hand in the memo itself, there is little doubt it would have been done on his behalf simply based on Nunes' participation. linkNunes already got in trouble last March for running over to the White House to pick up some intelligence documents. Initially, he claimed he got them from a 'source' - it finally came out that the White House was 'the source'.
He's definitely a Trump minion and not coincidentally, one of the biggest anti-Mueller voices.
www.nytimes.com/2017/03/30/us/politics/devin-nunes-intelligence-reports.html
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 31, 2018 17:50:39 GMT -5
... Remember, Pres. Trump didn't author this memo, commission it, or (to be the best of my knowledge) contribute to it in any way. ... I was thinking there was a bit if history: White House officials played role in surfacing documents Nunes viewed To be honest, I am not following all the ups and downs but just remembered that there was something. EDIT: happy beat me to it
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 31, 2018 18:34:54 GMT -5
Mueller has requested, or acceded to a request, to delay sentencing Flynn. i believe it is the former, or some form of it. Mueller delayed it.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 31, 2018 18:35:56 GMT -5
First, the knowledge that they are releasing their own version which even the intelligence agencies are warning against, while not allowing the release of a competing version, is evidence of not wanting anything other than their own political ends to be seen or met. Further, I wouldn't be too sure that the Trump administration did not have a hand in this memo. It was reportedly written by Devin Nunes and/or his staff. Nunes was an advisor to the Trump transition team, and was already otherwise questionable after his illegitimate in-person meetings last year with the White House while he was heading the House investigation. There is not even an appearance of objectivity on Nunes' part. Whether Trump or his operatives had a hand in the memo itself, there is little doubt it would have been done on his behalf simply based on Nunes' participation. linkNunes already got in trouble last March for running over to the White House to pick up some intelligence documents. Initially, he claimed he got them from a 'source' - it finally came out that the White House was 'the source'.
He's definitely a Trump minion and not coincidentally, one of the biggest anti-Mueller voices.
www.nytimes.com/2017/03/30/us/politics/devin-nunes-intelligence-reports.html
his reputation on this is already clearly questionable. with that in mind, some skepticism would be in order. he won't get any. not from the GOP, anyway.
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Post by dezii on Jan 31, 2018 19:27:47 GMT -5
What precedent(s) are you basing this on? Remember, Pres. Trump didn't author this memo, commission it, or (to be the best of my knowledge) contribute to it in any way. Hence you can't rest your argument on his penchant for dishonesty. Furthermore, you should cite at least one recent example of the GOP releasing a (near-)totally false report to justify the claim "there will not be a bit of real truth in [the memo]" ex ante. You wouldn't want to turn into the "raging Democrat who refuses to accept the legitimately-elected government" Mr. Greenfield decries in the "Second Civil War" thread. First, the knowledge that they are releasing their own version which even the intelligence agencies are warning against, while not allowing the release of a competing version, is evidence of not wanting anything other than their own political ends to be seen or met. Further, I wouldn't be too sure that the Trump administration did not have a hand in this memo. It was reportedly written by Devin Nunes and/or his staff. Nunes was an advisor to the Trump transition team, and was already otherwise questionable after his illegitimate in-person meetings last year with the White House while he was heading the House investigation. There is not even an appearance of objectivity on Nunes' part. Whether Trump or his operatives had a hand in the memo itself, there is little doubt it would have been done on his behalf simply based on Nunes' participation. link
And if it matters, I am not a Democrat. I'm certainly not a Republican, but I'm not a Democrat. And I have never claimed that Trump was not legitimately elected. Only that he is the most unqualified and most corrupt person ever elected, well on his way to being the worst president in history, and a singular danger to what America stands for and our position as a world leader. "Only that he is the most unqualified and most corrupt person ever elected, well on his way to being the worst president in history, and a singular danger to what America stands for and our position as a world leader."
Ya know..I couldn't agree with u any more the that and I AM a Democrat and many consider me a flaming liberal too...though I say middle to the left type of person. That however is spot on..... ....
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 31, 2018 19:36:23 GMT -5
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 31, 2018 19:40:33 GMT -5
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 31, 2018 20:06:50 GMT -5
I think Nunes is getting some credit because his reputation is so clearly on the line. So far most of the commentary from people who have read it is the facts are true but misleading. Maybe Trump will release on Sunday as part of his ongoing war with the NFL. My reading of the situation today from Sean Hannity and others is that the memo is just the warm-up. The IG report is apparently going to be devastating. Remember like 300 pages ago I said it will all fall apart because EVERYTHING is "fruit of the poison dossier"? Well, it's worse... theconservativetreehouse.com/2018/01/31/robert-mueller-requests-postponement-of-general-mike-flynn-sentencing/#more-145262MARK MY WORDS: The Democrats have a dossier problem. And it is NOT going away.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2018 23:29:04 GMT -5
Bold words make it so. Impeachment is near. Your good ole grabber is GUILTY of collusion with the Russian Government and laundering their money. MARK MY WORDS.
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 1, 2018 2:02:22 GMT -5
I think Nunes is getting some credit because his reputation is so clearly on the line. So far most of the commentary from people who have read it is the facts are true but misleading. Maybe Trump will release on Sunday as part of his ongoing war with the NFL. that's interesting. so the guy who has poisoned is reputation is to be believed because if he is wrong his stock will plunge the final 1%, having already lost 99%? interesting theory.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Feb 1, 2018 7:54:40 GMT -5
The male FBI agent involved in the romantic relationship with the other FBI agent, the ones who wrote the texts to each other that the far right dark matter/death star anti - Trump collusion theory say prove that the FBI is populated with evil Hillary puppets, wrote a draft of the document saying the FBI would revisit the email investigation against Hillary (although he was apprehensive about doing so so soon before the election). www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/controversial-fbi-agent-co-wrote-draft-of-comey-letter/ar-BBIx24c If this guy truly was part of the death mask/black hole anti-Trump conspiracy at the DOJ, he gets extra points for the convoluted way he appeared to be investigating her while secretly plotting a coup with her. Awesome spy double cross technique, dude! Or - he could have just been doing his job, which was to investigate to the fullest the whole email thing, in an unpartisan way, but where's the fun in that?
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Post by OldCoyote on Feb 1, 2018 8:25:44 GMT -5
Why was it when the text messages first came out showing bias against Trump, It was defended as it means nothing,, nothing at all,
Now the is something coming out that appears more favorable, suddenly this is important , completely truthful??
Why is one nothing and the other is so important?
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Post by happyhoix on Feb 1, 2018 8:36:33 GMT -5
Why was it when the text messages first came out showing bias against Trump, It was defended as it means nothing,, nothing at all, Now the is something coming out that appears more favorable, suddenly this is important , completely truthful?? Why is one nothing and the other is so important?
If your boss is going to do an annual review with you and he's going to review your work product, would you expect he would review the texts and emails you send to your wife during the day, or would he review the documents you created at work in order to determine how good you are at your job?
This agent said a lot of negative things in his texts, not just about Trump, but about Hillary, and Sanders, and a whole lot of other people. But they were texts intended only for his girlfriend, not 'work product.'
At the end of the day,it appears he was actually doing his job, which included determining whether or not it was important to review Hillary's emails - and he thought it was. Which runs contrary to the whole 'rogue anti-Trump pro-Hillary' agent story the far right is trying to promote.
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