Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Nov 30, 2017 15:00:52 GMT -5
As you no doubt know, many high profile men in entertainment, politics, and journalism have been fired or otherwise had their career and future put in jeopardy for accusations of sexual assault and/or sexual harassment.
My question(s) to you are.
1. Have we really reached a turning point where sexual assault/harassment will not be tolerated in society, and victims feel empowered to step forward?
2. How do you see this playing out in the long term? Is this a flash in the pan thing or will there be real change in society?
3. Do you think this change will "trickle down" to us common folk and our typical, non high profile workplaces?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 30, 2017 15:12:50 GMT -5
1. Perhaps more a sharpening of the curve we were already on.
2. I think there is a purge of past sins that is happening which will make it look a bit like a flash in the pan (there is a fixed number of an unknown size who can be outed for past behavior). I think it will have an impact on behavior.
3.Yes.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 30, 2017 15:25:41 GMT -5
1. I don't think so. The stepping forward now seems to be a lot of piling on after someone else makes an accusation. I don't think it's necessarily any easier to take that big first step for the first person to step forward (and outside of celebrities, there isn't likely to be a lot of eyes on it even when it happens in order to empower other victims). I think it's also quite a bit of previous accusations gaining new life...the whole think just seems very "fad-ish". I'm not sure it has legs, but it's certainly better than nothing.
2. I think it's a real change to the extent that there's more scrutiny now. I think this also means a lot of very attractive but not very talented young women will have a much harder time finding jobs when the men doing the hiring have no shot with them (maybe some young men as well..but it seems the vast majority we're hearing about is young women being hired by older men). I think what's happening now is so heavily weighted towards celebrities that it's not likely to make a huge impact to society in general without some other major influence...though maybe this will be a catalyst to that yet unnamed "other major influence".
3. No, for reasons stated above. Perhaps improvements...but I don't think it's going to be the litany of allegations in random low profile workplaces (and probably in large part due to the fact it's not happening nearly as much as in more "loose" workplaces where you're constantly pulling in people off the street to work, people work with family/friends all the time, relationships seem commonplace within the work, etc, like it is in showbiz).
I kind of wonder how young female actresses/talents feel about this when they really look at it (specifically, the ones on the fringe, there will always be work for very talented individuals). Nobody wants to be harassed...but I'm not sure that most people are going to have a problem with getting a major movie role because the boss "thinks you're hot". The way it's going now, that boss can't even really hit on her, even if he's totally fine with her saying "no". I think that's a fine rule, don't hit on your employees...but I wonder how removing that incentive to hire someone you're sexually attracted to will actually play out when it comes to the people who would have typically received those roles based primarily on that factor. Will we see more quality actresses in those roles...perhaps talent that would have otherwise gone un-noticed? Does the public really want to see average-looking/unattractive talented women in those kinds of roles (I think we all say yes, but will true results measure up when we count the dollars)? Will some of those projects simply go by the wayside (I'm sure there are LOTS of small projects out there that exist for no other reason than an exec to try to hit on hot young stars)?
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Nov 30, 2017 15:38:36 GMT -5
Crap, I made a long post answering my own question, and the internet ate it. Here's what I think. 1. In entertainment, politics, and the media, you sell your own personl brand and name. When that name is sullied by accusations of sexual impropriety, it directly impacts the bottom line. In most companies though, the employees name and own "personal brand" either don't exist or don't matter to the company's reputation, because the company is selling a product or service, not selling their employee's name. Therefore, there's less incentive to fire employees over accusations. 2. The assistant manager at the local mini mart doesn't draw the same publicity as a big name in politics, the media, or the entertainment industry. So there won't be as much public pressure to fire an offending employee. 3. So far, both the victims and the accused are at least moderately wealthy. However, most employees can't afford to wrap themselves in legal representation like these high profile names can. 4. Most businesses don't like controversy, so there is still incentive for them to handle situations of sexual assault/harassment behind closed doors and with NDA's.
In summary, I don't think this is a real turning point outside of the entertainment, journalism, and political arenas.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 30, 2017 16:31:41 GMT -5
I actually think this has finally trickled UP to the big people. They analyzed corporate anti-sexual harassment programs and found that the companies that did any kind of training tended to train people at the bottom of the org chart. The higher you were in a company, the less likely you had to sit through a class on what not to do. This is pretty much exactly opposite of what needed to happen, as Kyle in the copy room doesn't really have the power to ruin a career if a woman doesn't sleep with him.
In order for it to last, there is the question if Kyle took the training to heart and as he works his way up in the company he remembers that taking your penis out during a business meeting isn't such a good idea, or if as he moves up, the previous generation of sceeze bags tell him that when you are the boss, you can do anything, like spontaneously kiss women without their permission, or grab them by the genitals.
Will this round of powerful men getting punished for unacceptable actions enough to sway future actions of future leaders? Maybe. But the message has to be reinforced.
I also think that the entertainment industry is a sexist, lawless, creepy place, and many regular businesses might be a little ahead of the moral curve.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Nov 30, 2017 16:47:10 GMT -5
I actually think this has finally trickled UP to the big people. They analyzed corporate anti-sexual harassment programs and found that the companies that did any kind of training tended to train people at the bottom of the org chart. The higher you were in a company, the less likely you had to sit through a class on what not to do. This is pretty much exactly opposite of what needed to happen, as Kyle in the copy room doesn't really have the power to ruin a career if a woman doesn't sleep with him. In order for it to last, there is the question if Kyle took the training to heart and as he works his way up in the company he remembers that taking your penis out during a business meeting isn't such a good idea, or if as he moves up, the previous generation of sceeze bags tell him that when you are the boss, you can do anything, like spontaneously kiss women without their permission, or grab them by the genitals. Will this round of powerful men getting punished for unacceptable actions enough to sway future actions of future leaders? Maybe. But the message has to be reinforced. I also think that the entertainment industry is a sexist, lawless, creepy place, and many regular businesses might be a little ahead of the moral curve. Maybe you're right. Most big companies, the military, and the federal government (at least the executive branch) have been doing sexual harassment/assault training for years.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Nov 30, 2017 17:07:52 GMT -5
It isn't all males who are guilty.
Until the female side of this coin is outed, we will not have reached a turning point.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Nov 30, 2017 17:57:11 GMT -5
It isn't all males who are guilty. Until the female side of this coin is outed, we will not have reached a turning point. It will happen, give it time. I've been saying it for weeks. I'm waiting for aggressive women in power to get ratted out in both hetro-sexual as well as homo-sexual situations. The main issue that I see is the classic "Absolute Power corrupts absolutely"; in other words, people in positions of power can exploit the situation and take advantage of people with less power. The sexual harassment is not really about sex, it's about power. The classic line attributed to Roy Moore "no one will believe you" is one reason the situation is so cringe worthy.
I don't believe we've heard of much female predation because there's still cultural bias. 1. Far few women are in meaningful positions of power whereby they can realistically threaten to ruin a subordinate's future if someone doesn't sleep with them and 2. Most men are embarrassed to report unwanted female aggression. Even on this board there have been many snarky remarks by men posters about situations like a female teacher having sexual relations with an underage male student.
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grits
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Post by grits on Nov 30, 2017 18:09:07 GMT -5
It isn't just males making snarky comments. A female coworker believes that female teachers should not be prosecuted for having sex with under-aged boys. She thinks the boys got what they wanted out of it. Men are reluctant to come forward because those that do suffer consequences, and the women are not equally punished. I have had a lot of experience in filing said charges with witnesses, and upper management didn't even investigate her. The general public tends to not be as sympathetic towards men, and are far more lenient towards women. Look at the differences handed down in sentences for similar crimes committed by both genders. Society does indeed have a gender bias going in many different directions.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Nov 30, 2017 18:21:38 GMT -5
It isn't just males making snarky comments. Oh I know women can be snarky too. I wrote in the Roy Moore thread about how my own mother was a disbeliever about the sexual harassment both I and a girlfriend were experiencing in the early 80s. It's one reason people didn't talk about it.
And when the Roy Moore stuff started coming out my 83 year old MIL's reaction was "I had to put up with it, I don't understand the fuss".
I'm hoping that we are experiencing a shift in attitudes much like the shift in racial equality. It's never going to be 100% o.k. as jerks are going to be jerks but I want to see enforceable policy changes.
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grits
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Post by grits on Dec 6, 2017 9:19:04 GMT -5
When enforceable policy changes are made, will the public seek for equal enforcement? If so, women who tell smutty jokes, and use profanity are going to have to clean up their mouths or face similar charges. Could it mean the death of the "F bomb" at work? Where I work, only women use the term.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Dec 6, 2017 10:13:07 GMT -5
When enforceable policy changes are made, will the public seek for equal enforcement? If so, women who tell smutty jokes, and use profanity are going to have to clean up their mouths or face similar charges. Could it mean the death of the "F bomb" at work? Where I work, only women use the term. How is profanity or the "F Bomb" (simply saying "Fuck" or "Fuck this shit") sexual harassment or sexual assault in or out of the work place?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Dec 6, 2017 10:54:37 GMT -5
When enforceable policy changes are made, will the public seek for equal enforcement? If so, women who tell smutty jokes, and use profanity are going to have to clean up their mouths or face similar charges. Could it mean the death of the "F bomb" at work? Where I work, only women use the term. I curse like a drunken sailor. How in the F is that sexual harassment?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Dec 6, 2017 11:41:25 GMT -5
When enforceable policy changes are made, will the public seek for equal enforcement? If so, women who tell smutty jokes, and use profanity are going to have to clean up their mouths or face similar charges. Could it mean the death of the "F bomb" at work? Where I work, only women use the term. I curse like a drunken sailor. How in the F is that sexual harassment? It's not. Saying, "let's fuck, and we'll see about that promotion" to a subordinate is. Talking about your sex life in order to embarass/make other employees uncomfortable is, but just saying, "fuck yeah, great job" isn't. Grits doesn't get it. Or doesn't want to get it.
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grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Dec 6, 2017 11:48:46 GMT -5
I curse like a drunken sailor. How in the F is that sexual harassment? It's not. Saying, "let's fuck, and we'll see about that promotion" to a subordinate is. Talking about your sex life in order to embarass/make other employees uncomfortable is, but just saying, "fuck yeah, great job" isn't. Grits doesn't get it. Or doesn't want to get it. They just want to enforce the false narrative that women that claim sexual harassment are being overly sensitive, and don't know how to take a joke. It benefits them to make it appear that the problem is women being unreasonable, instead of the men being abusive pigs.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Dec 6, 2017 12:01:42 GMT -5
As you no doubt know, many high profile men in entertainment, politics, and journalism have been fired or otherwise had their career and future put in jeopardy for accusations of sexual assault and/or sexual harassment.
My question(s) to you are.
1. Have we really reached a turning point where sexual assault/harassment will not be tolerated in society, and victims feel empowered to step forward?
2. How do you see this playing out in the long term? Is this a flash in the pan thing or will there be real change in society?
3. Do you think this change will "trickle down" to us common folk and our typical, non high profile workplaces? Is this a turning point? Yes. How it will solidify is TBD.
2) Real change.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Dec 6, 2017 12:06:14 GMT -5
When enforceable policy changes are made, will the public seek for equal enforcement? If so, women who tell smutty jokes, and use profanity are going to have to clean up their mouths or face similar charges. Could it mean the death of the "F bomb" at work? Where I work, only women use the term. Some things happen because of local conditions. I read the article in Allure magazine about Amber Heard. I really liked one of her quotes.
"I did not realize how far we have to go to be equal. [And by equal] I mean fair."
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Dec 6, 2017 12:21:11 GMT -5
I curse like a drunken sailor. How in the F is that sexual harassment? It's not. Saying, "let's fuck, and we'll see about that promotion" to a subordinate is. Talking about your sex life in order to embarass/make other employees uncomfortable is, but just saying, "fuck yeah, great job" isn't. Grits doesn't get it. Or doesn't want to get it. Phew...I thought for a minute I would be added to the long list of sexual harrassers!
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Dec 6, 2017 12:22:14 GMT -5
It's not. Saying, "let's fuck, and we'll see about that promotion" to a subordinate is. Talking about your sex life in order to embarass/make other employees uncomfortable is, but just saying, "fuck yeah, great job" isn't. Grits doesn't get it. Or doesn't want to get it. They just want to enforce the false narrative that women that claim sexual harassment are being overly sensitive, and don't know how to take a joke. It benefits them to make it appear that the problem is women being unreasonable, instead of the men being abusive pigs. Who is "they" and "them"?
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grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Dec 6, 2017 12:24:45 GMT -5
They just want to enforce the false narrative that women that claim sexual harassment are being overly sensitive, and don't know how to take a joke. It benefits them to make it appear that the problem is women being unreasonable, instead of the men being abusive pigs. Who is "they" and "them"? Anyone attempting to push the idea that swearing is akin to sexual harassment. In this case, grits, but he(?) is hardly alone.
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chapeau
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Post by chapeau on Dec 6, 2017 13:27:53 GMT -5
It's not. Saying, "let's fuck, and we'll see about that promotion" to a subordinate is. Talking about your sex life in order to embarass/make other employees uncomfortable is, but just saying, "fuck yeah, great job" isn't. Grits doesn't get it. Or doesn't want to get it. Phew...I thought for a minute I would be added to the long list of sexual harrassers! I was in high school when Clarence Thomas was nominated for the Supreme Court and Anita Hill accused him of harassment, so it was something we talked about in several classes. Because I had a reputation for responding in kind when boys made comments to me, some classmates decided that I would be the most likely to be the defendant in a sexual harassment lawsuit. The cutest couple broke up before Senior Prom, and I haven't been sued yet either! But I do swear like a sailor and if someone is dumb enough to say something inappropriate, I'm most likely going to say something similar right back.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Dec 6, 2017 13:53:57 GMT -5
Phew...I thought for a minute I would be added to the long list of sexual harrassers! I was in high school when Clarence Thomas was nominated for the Supreme Court and Anita Hill accused him of harassment, so it was something we talked about in several classes. Because I had a reputation for responding in kind when boys made comments to me, some classmates decided that I would be the most likely to be the defendant in a sexual harassment lawsuit. The cutest couple broke up before Senior Prom, and I haven't been sued yet either! But I do swear like a sailor and if someone is dumb enough to say something inappropriate, I'm most likely going to say something similar right back. It is like you are my sister from another mother!
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grits
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Post by grits on Dec 7, 2017 19:43:58 GMT -5
I curse like a drunken sailor. How in the F is that sexual harassment? It's not. Saying, "let's fuck, and we'll see about that promotion" to a subordinate is. Talking about your sex life in order to embarass/make other employees uncomfortable is, but just saying, "fuck yeah, great job" isn't. Grits doesn't get it. Or doesn't want to get it. Oh I get it. The term has a base root in a sexual term. It may fly in New York that you get off with it but try that somewhere else. At the bare minimum you will be reprimanded. In the Federal Government employees have been warned about all language usage. Try cursing up a storm, and see what happens. If someone files, you can face harassment, zero tolerance, and if not careful you'll get it under sexual harassment. It isn't just in what the speaker meant but in how it is perceived by the recipient. So, it could very well bring a crack down on language at the work place.
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chapeau
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Post by chapeau on Dec 7, 2017 20:37:54 GMT -5
It's not. Saying, "let's fuck, and we'll see about that promotion" to a subordinate is. Talking about your sex life in order to embarass/make other employees uncomfortable is, but just saying, "fuck yeah, great job" isn't. Grits doesn't get it. Or doesn't want to get it. Oh I get it. The term has a base root in a sexual term. It may fly in New York that you get off with it but try that somewhere else. At the bare minimum you will be reprimanded. In the Federal Government employees have been warned about all language usage. Try cursing up a storm, and see what happens. If someone files, you can face harassment, zero tolerance, and if not careful you'll get it under sexual harassment. It isn't just in what the speaker meant but in how it is perceived by the recipient. So, it could very well bring a crack down on language at the work place. Yet another reason to be glad I work somewhere more sane than for the federal government. But not much-I work in state government. 🙄
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Dec 7, 2017 20:55:14 GMT -5
When enforceable policy changes are made, will the public seek for equal enforcement? If so, women who tell smutty jokes, and use profanity are going to have to clean up their mouths or face similar charges. Could it mean the death of the "F bomb" at work? Where I work, only women use the term. How is profanity or the "F Bomb" (simply saying "Fuck" or "Fuck this shit") sexual harassment or sexual assault in or out of the work place? I personally never have considered someone using the F-bomb commiting sexual harassment. I do dislike the use of that expression though and I have been known to ask people refrain from using it "because I really don't like it". Guess what, without exception they did.
Now working in a lab and having an ankle lenght lab coat (when mini skirts were around for the first time) because a colleague would come in to try and look up my skirt whenever my gaschromatograph acted up and I had to climb on top of the desk to fix the thing, that qualified in my opinion at the time (and it still does).
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Dec 7, 2017 21:14:29 GMT -5
As you no doubt know, many high profile men in entertainment, politics, and journalism have been fired or otherwise had their career and future put in jeopardy for accusations of sexual assault and/or sexual harassment.
My question(s) to you are.
1. Have we really reached a turning point where sexual assault/harassment will not be tolerated in society, and victims feel empowered to step forward?
2. How do you see this playing out in the long term? Is this a flash in the pan thing or will there be real change in society?
3. Do you think this change will "trickle down" to us common folk and our typical, non high profile workplaces? I think that your list of questions is a bit slanted toward the conclusion that no big change will come out of this series of scandals. Sadly, I agree with you. I'll even go one step farther and suggest that some very bad changes can come out of this. Most of the men (so far) who have been exposed as serial predators are rainmakers. They are the show. They are the thing that makes the enterprise make money. They are the names that you want on your CV. Perhaps what this moment has shown is how badly our current safeguards against workplace sexual harassment and assault work when the person at the center of it is such a rainmaker. I think that we may see some positive changes regarding how complaints against legislators are handled. That isn't saying much. The system that is currently in place is pretty horrifying. As for folks who work for non-elected big shots, I think that they are out of luck. I suspect that their employers may take a page from Weinstein and copy his scandal-avoidance methods. Small payoffs and NDAs worked very well for him for a long time. Using different law firms to conduct investigations of purposefully limited scope is also a tactic that may be more widely adopted. I think that if anything trickles down it will be increased use of outside law firms to conduct investigations into allegations of inappropriate behavior and this scares me. It's terrifyingly easy to pre-determine the outcome of such an investigation by limiting the information given to the investigators or reminding them of how respect for the accuser means that everything must be done on the quiet and so maybe it isn't necessary to talk to everyone named as a corroborating witness in the complaint. Outsourcing an investigation in this way also conveniently thwarts institutional memory. When your default reaction to such a complaint is to outsource it and never speak of it internally, a redonkulous number of similar complaints may be filed and "dealt with appropriately and according to the law" without anyone being called on the carpet for not noticing a pattern. Quite frankly, my reaction to this series of scandals has been to trust HR a whole lot less than I already do. I think that these scandals have given them a whole lot of tips and tricks for keeping themselves and the company safe while throwing complaining employees to the dogs.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Dec 11, 2017 17:21:53 GMT -5
As you no doubt know, many high profile men in entertainment, politics, and journalism have been fired or otherwise had their career and future put in jeopardy for accusations of sexual assault and/or sexual harassment.
My question(s) to you are.
1. Have we really reached a turning point where sexual assault/harassment will not be tolerated in society, and victims feel empowered to step forward?
2. How do you see this playing out in the long term? Is this a flash in the pan thing or will there be real change in society?
3. Do you think this change will "trickle down" to us common folk and our typical, non high profile workplaces? I think that your list of questions is a bit slanted toward the conclusion that no big change will come out of this series of scandals. Sadly, I agree with you. I'll even go one step farther and suggest that some very bad changes can come out of this. Most of the men (so far) who have been exposed as serial predators are rainmakers. They are the show. They are the thing that makes the enterprise make money. They are the names that you want on your CV. Perhaps what this moment has shown is how badly our current safeguards against workplace sexual harassment and assault work when the person at the center of it is such a rainmaker. I think that we may see some positive changes regarding how complaints against legislators are handled. That isn't saying much. The system that is currently in place is pretty horrifying. As for folks who work for non-elected big shots, I think that they are out of luck. I suspect that their employers may take a page from Weinstein and copy his scandal-avoidance methods. Small payoffs and NDAs worked very well for him for a long time. Using different law firms to conduct investigations of purposefully limited scope is also a tactic that may be more widely adopted. I think that if anything trickles down it will be increased use of outside law firms to conduct investigations into allegations of inappropriate behavior and this scares me. It's terrifyingly easy to pre-determine the outcome of such an investigation by limiting the information given to the investigators or reminding them of how respect for the accuser means that everything must be done on the quiet and so maybe it isn't necessary to talk to everyone named as a corroborating witness in the complaint. Outsourcing an investigation in this way also conveniently thwarts institutional memory. When your default reaction to such a complaint is to outsource it and never speak of it internally, a redonkulous number of similar complaints may be filed and "dealt with appropriately and according to the law" without anyone being called on the carpet for not noticing a pattern. Quite frankly, my reaction to this series of scandals has been to trust HR a whole lot less than I already do. I think that these scandals have given them a whole lot of tips and tricks for keeping themselves and the company safe while throwing complaining employees to the dogs. Yes, I agree.
And I agree that this is probably a fad. I'd like to see real positive change, but I don't see a major shift outside of industries where the individual personality makes the money.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Dec 14, 2017 23:41:13 GMT -5
1. I think we're at the point where what is happening in the political world and the entertainment industry now is what happened in the corporate world 20+ years ago. From what I hear, sexual harassment was epidemic in the corporate world back in the bad old days, but I haven't seen or heard of anything in the 20 years I've worked in the corporate world. (My experience is working in IT for large, boring companies in a variety of industries. I can't speak of anything else.)
2. Long term, I think there will be a witch hunt atmosphere for a while and then we'll all settle down to a pattern where sexual harassment in politics and entertainment may become less common.
3. I think the change trickled down to corporate skilled jobs years ago. In 20 years, I've gone to lunch alone with a male boss or coworker exactly once, and he wasn't from this country. I've gone out with groups plenty of times, but I think it is pretty common for guys in the corporate world to not want to be alone in a car with a female coworker, and frankly, I don't blame them. Offices are becoming more rare and glass walled offices are becoming the norm.
I have a feeling that unskilled workers in depressed areas and easily replaced workers will continue having to deal with this crap. I've heard that astronomy has a huge sexual harassment problem, and I saw quite a bit of it when I was in the math department. In both cases, you have schools graduating 10-100 PhD's for every tenure track position, so there is fierce competition for academic jobs.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Dec 15, 2017 1:23:56 GMT -5
ETA: please don't quote this, I might delete it later... It's not. Saying, "let's fuck, and we'll see about that promotion" to a subordinate is. Talking about your sex life in order to embarass/make other employees uncomfortable is, but just saying, "fuck yeah, great job" isn't. Grits doesn't get it. Or doesn't want to get it. Oh I get it. The term has a base root in a sexual term. It may fly in New York that you get off with it but try that somewhere else. At the bare minimum you will be reprimanded. In the Federal Government employees have been warned about all language usage. Try cursing up a storm, and see what happens. If someone files, you can face harassment, zero tolerance, and if not careful you'll get it under sexual harassment. It isn't just in what the speaker meant but in how it is perceived by the recipient. So, it could very well bring a crack down on language at the work place. Federal government? They don't give a shit when it comes down to it. *poof* (but really, they don't care, even when you have undeniable proof.)
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billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 15, 2017 9:35:19 GMT -5
ETA: please don't quote this, I might delete it later... ... (again, in case it was missed, please don't quote) My understanding is you are talking about something that took place longer ago than the past couple of months. It sets up the question of the thread well. If the initial actions were to start happening today, would the subsequent events play out differently?
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