Is this a turning point for sexual harrassment?

[zibazinski]

Nope

[grumpyhermit]

Dec 15, 2017 9:35:19 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Dec 15, 2017 1:23:56 GMT -5 Apple said:

ETA: please don't quote this, I might delete it later...

...

(again, in case it was missed, please don't quote)

My understanding is you are talking about something that took place longer ago than the past couple of months. It sets up the question of the thread well. If the initial actions were to start happening today, would the subsequent events play out differently?

My guess it would depend heavily on the industry. If I recall correctly, Apple is in the trades. I think the only reason we are seeing action on a lot of these cases is that they are so high profile, and in the spotlight. I don't expect the culture will change much for the average worker.

[Bonny]

Dec 15, 2017 9:35:19 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Dec 15, 2017 1:23:56 GMT -5 Apple said:

ETA: please don't quote this, I might delete it later...

...

(again, in case it was missed, please don't quote)

My understanding is you are talking about something that took place longer ago than the past couple of months. It sets up the question of the thread well. If the initial actions were to start happening today, would the subsequent events play out differently?

It was within the last couple of years. Apple's experience was one of the worst workplace sexual harassment situations I had heard about in a long time. I worked in a male dominated industry (Railroad) both in private and public sector and both workplaces had pretty strict sexual harassment proceedures.

[Apple]

Dec 15, 2017 9:35:19 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Dec 15, 2017 1:23:56 GMT -5 Apple said:

ETA: please don't quote this, I might delete it later...

...

(again, in case it was missed, please don't quote)

My understanding is you are talking about something that took place longer ago than the past couple of months. It sets up the question of the thread well. If the initial actions were to start happening today, would the subsequent events play out differently?

No, I don't believe they would.  Why?  Within the last couple months, one of the harassers was given a huge promotion, making him the "top dog" at a location with over 200 people.  

[dee27]

Dec 15, 2017 11:37:40 GMT -5 Apple said:

Dec 15, 2017 9:35:19 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

My understanding is you are talking about something that took place longer ago than the past couple of months. It sets up the question of the thread well. If the initial actions were to start happening today, would the subsequent events play out differently?

No, I don't believe they would.  Why?  Within the last couple months, one of the harassers was given a huge promotion, making him the "top dog" at a location with over 200 people.  

WTF!

[Apple]

The key player in my harassment just retired after volunteering to deploy, where he earned hundreds of thousand a year due to overtime.  This was something he had been trying to do for a couple years, but our project had decided not to allow anymore deployments.  However, they "let" guys deploy when they are trying to allow a situation to mellow out, and when the guy comes back, they go on like nothing ever happened.  Now he has come back, retired, and was hired by a contractor at the site to be their superintendent for a multi-million, multi-year project.

(both those men are at my old location)

Please don't quote the next part:

*poof*

[billisonboard]

Dec 15, 2017 11:53:17 GMT -5 Apple said:

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Please don't quote the next part:

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A currently unfolding situation is a great test for if things have changed.

One thing I have read is that the courage of women to step out and openly report what is done to them is a positive element in hoped for change. I would agree.

[Apple]

Dec 15, 2017 12:04:39 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Dec 15, 2017 11:53:17 GMT -5 Apple said:

...

Please don't quote the next part:

...

A currently unfolding situation is a great test for if things have changed.

One thing I have read is that the courage of women to step out and openly report what is done to them is a positive element in hoped for change. I would agree.

Personal experience, as well as those of others I know in my kind of work ("a man's world"...)

You try to deal with most issues yourself.  Jokes, etc, are ignored because they are constant.  No one even thinks about reporting anything until they have as much documentation as they can get, and things have become pretty severe.  Because less than that, and the harasser just denies it and nothing is done (well, some retaliation, but management doesn't care about that, and will happily participate and encourage it).  So, by the time these women are speaking out, there are some horror stories.

On top of that, each time a situation is brushed aside by management, it reinforces the idea that it doesn't do any good to report it.  So now situations have to get even worse, with even more documentation and proof to feel like it's worth possibly losing your job to come forward, and, at the very least, becoming completely isolated at work because everyone has turned against you (including other female coworkers).  "Isolating" isn't the word I'm looking for, but I can't think of the one I am.  It's more like becoming a complete outcast.

In the unfolding situation, management is proving that nothing has changed, and they have become more bold with their stance, knowing everything they have been able to cover up, brush off, and get away with in the past.  

I had years worth of documentation.  I had text messages going back 5 years.  I had emails that had been sent to me, on a government computer, requesting sexual favors.  It took that long for me to build my case, with the proof that my job assignments were changed directly after each event (I did not have access to the labor system, so did not know if my time was being charged correctly--incorrect time charge and they could claim I made the job change up.)

If I were to describe every detail of what happened, you would think I was crazy, because there "is no way this can be the truth, they couldn't/wouldn't do that." "someone would get in trouble" "that's against the rules", etc.  Even the person going through it now didn't really believe all the crap they got away with doing to me, until they started to target her.

You never want to be "that woman" when you work in the trades, so coming forward is not taken lightly.  I don't know anyone who would come forward, even now, after all the publicity of charges, unless they had some form of actual proof.  Which, as people become "smarter", they do more to avoid slipping up and doing anything that would leave evidence.  They don't quit doing it, they just try harder not to get caught.

I'm thankful for the crew I have now, and that the boss I have doesn't play into any of this, is not a spiteful person and does not single out employees to play games with.  However, I know that can change on a dime.  I also know that one of the harassers in the current situation is trying to get on my crew.  

[Apple]

Oh, and my "things have become pretty severe" comment.  These are not jokes that have gotten severe, these are graphic requests for sexual favors, and when turned down, the subject of the harassment is held back from promotions, job assignments are changed, and they are intentionally put in dangerous situations.  Dangerous situations included being sent to work with men who had it out for you.  Giving you tools to do a job that they knew did not work right, and should have been repaired or scrapped, since using them in the state they were in could very likely cause injury.  Tampering with safety equipment.  Intentionally dropping their end of something in a two-man lift.  Intentionally dropping tools and equipment on you when you had to work under them (physically, like they were on a ladder or platform above you).

Some of the harassers successfully take part in manipulative campaigns to where the majority of your crew is now against you, even before you report it.  To the point where there are very few people it is physically safe to work around.  Accidents happen in industrial environments, and would be very easy to claim that's what it was.

Sadly, I know a woman with permanent injuries because she was subjected to the treatment above (even after surgeries to try to reduce the damage caused).  Her coworker proudly told her he did it because women don't belong on the crew, but then claimed it was an accident to his boss.  I was fortunately never seriously injured, more than just maybe a sprain or a bruise.  

[zibazinski]

Dec 15, 2017 13:04:50 GMT -5 Apple said:

Oh, and my "things have become pretty severe" comment.  These are not jokes that have gotten severe, these are graphic requests for sexual favors, and when turned down, the subject of the harassment is held back from promotions, job assignments are changed, and they are intentionally put in dangerous situations.  Dangerous situations included being sent to work with men who had it out for you.  Giving you tools to do a job that they knew did not work right, and should have been repaired or scrapped, since using them in the state they were in could very likely cause injury.  Tampering with safety equipment.  Intentionally dropping their end of something in a two-man lift.  Intentionally dropping tools and equipment on you when you had to work under them (physically, like they were on a ladder or platform above you).

Some of the harassers successfully take part in manipulative campaigns to where the majority of your crew is now against you, even before you report it.  To the point where there are very few people it is physically safe to work around.  Accidents happen in industrial environments, and would be very easy to claim that's what it was.

Sadly, I know a woman with permanent injuries because she was subjected to the treatment above (even after surgeries to try to reduce the damage caused).  Her coworker proudly told her he did it because women don't belong on the crew, but then claimed it was an accident to his boss.  I was fortunately never seriously injured, more than just maybe a sprain or a bruise.  

🤬. There’s a special place in hell for them.

[ken a.k.a OMK]

🤬. There’s a special place in hell for them.

Yes but we need to change things now to protect these women before someone gets killed. I know her industry and job (worked with the same trade in another industry) so I know the dangers.

[weltschmerz]

Dec 15, 2017 12:04:39 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Dec 15, 2017 11:53:17 GMT -5 Apple said:

...

Please don't quote the next part:

...

A currently unfolding situation is a great test for if things have changed.

One thing I have read is that the courage of women to step out and openly report what is done to them is a positive element in hoped for change. I would agree.

One woman recently reported sexual assault.
The judge's response was essentially "You're fat. You should be flattered."

[NastyWoman]

Apple, it seems like the word you were looking for is "shunned".

I wonder if you and the other women who came forward kept the proof of what was done to them, because I can see a big lawsuit coming down the pipeline if you all in fact did do so.

[Apple]

Dec 15, 2017 17:23:25 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Apple , it seems like the word you were looking for is "shunned".

I wonder if you and the other women who came forward kept the proof of what was done to them, because I can see a big lawsuit coming down the pipeline if you all in fact did do so.

Yes, I know a few have.  Pretty sure everyone has.

One has since retired, one quit over the issues (she had started taking night and weekend classes to become a teacher).  I've changed locations and careers (taking a paycut to do so--I'm still in the field, but different job), and am not experiencing any issues currently, but that can change so quick, as I've discovered in the past.  Another is currently going through her situation, so still unsure of the outcome there.

I've told a few dealing with this stuff that I am happy to share my documentation, so that they can turn it in to help support their own case, to show past behavior of abusers/management (because some of the same players are involved in different cases).  For the most part, we try to help look out for each other, warning each other if an abuser is transferring to their work site, etc. Unfortunately, there are some women who jump in and happily participate in the harassment/hostile environment, so we have to be careful there too.  That last part is especially nauseating.

[Apple]

Dec 15, 2017 17:10:52 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Dec 15, 2017 12:04:39 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

A currently unfolding situation is a great test for if things have changed.

One thing I have read is that the courage of women to step out and openly report what is done to them is a positive element in hoped for change. I would agree.

One woman recently reported sexual assault.
The judge's response was essentially "You're fat. You should be flattered."

It sucks that this does not shock, or even surprise, me.

[billisonboard]

Dec 15, 2017 17:10:52 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Dec 15, 2017 12:04:39 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

A currently unfolding situation is a great test for if things have changed.

One thing I have read is that the courage of women to step out and openly report what is done to them is a positive element in hoped for change. I would agree.

One woman recently reported sexual assault.
The judge's response was essentially "You're fat. You should be flattered."

I might have found that case.  The judge did make inappropriate comments concerning the woman assaulted, then found the man guilty of sexual assault (from link below) and

Quebec’s justice minister will file a complaint against a judge who said a 17-year-old victim of sexual assault had a pretty face and was maybe a “bit flattered” at the interest shown in her. link

I couldn't find an update from the end of October article. Hopefully he will face serious disciplinary action.

[weltschmerz]

It was the same judge who said  "Meh! It's not the Crime  of the Century" when a 19 yr old pressed charges against a co-worker who grabbed her breasts.

He should have been removed from the bench right then and there.

[weltschmerz]

....and then people wonder why women don't come forward and report assault.

[Tiny]

Dec 15, 2017 16:32:56 GMT -5 ken a.k.a OMK said:

🤬. There’s a special place in hell for them.

Yes but we need to change things now to protect these women before someone gets killed. I know her industry and job (worked with the same trade in another industry) so I know the dangers.

And this is why there are lawyers and LAWS about harassment.   I'm having a hard time believing the women involved haven't talked to lawyers. I suspect even Unions aren't above general employment laws.

I'm pretty sure my employer doesn't go out of it way to ensure "sexual harassment" doesn't happen out of the kindness of it's heart... I'm pretty sure it's because of laws/regulations/etc...

[weltschmerz]

Dec 15, 2017 17:42:32 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Dec 15, 2017 17:10:52 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

One woman recently reported sexual assault.
The judge's response was essentially "You're fat. You should be flattered."

I might have found that case.  The judge did make inappropriate comments concerning the woman assaulted, then found the man guilty of sexual assault (from link below) and

Quebec’s justice minister will file a complaint against a judge who said a 17-year-old victim of sexual assault had a pretty face and was maybe a “bit flattered” at the interest shown in her. link

I couldn't find an update from the end of October article. Hopefully he will face serious disciplinary action.

He withdrew from the case and recused himself after the shit hit the fan.

[weltschmerz]

He was replaced by Judge Lori Weitzman, who found the accused guilty.

[billisonboard]

Dec 15, 2017 17:51:03 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

He was replaced by Judge Lori Weitzman, who found the accused guilty.

Guess the Toronto Sun got it wrong in the linked story I provided.

Braun convicted Figaro, ... link

[billisonboard]

Replaced for the sentencing phase. link

[weltschmerz]

My mistake. He recused himself and Judge Lori presided over the sentencing.

Regardless, in light of his previous comments, this guy should NEVER hear sexual assault cases again.

I'd like to see him stripped of his law licence altogether. He's useless.

Worse than useless, actually. He's harmful.

[grits]

Dec 15, 2017 1:23:56 GMT -5 Apple said:

ETA: please don't quote this, I might delete it later...

Dec 7, 2017 19:43:58 GMT -5 grits said:

Oh I get it.  The term has a base root in a sexual term.  It may fly in New York that you get off with it but try that somewhere else.  At the bare minimum you will be reprimanded.  In the Federal Government employees have been warned about all language usage.  Try cursing up a storm, and see what happens.  If someone files, you can face harassment, zero tolerance, and if not careful you'll get it under sexual harassment.  It isn't just in what the speaker meant but in how it is perceived by the recipient. So, it could very well bring a crack down on language at the work place. 

Federal government?  They don't give a shit when it comes down to it. *poof* (but really, they don't care, even when you have undeniable proof.)

They don't care when it's high ranking politicians but they do care when it's low level workers.
I have been connected to personnel matters at the places I've worked for soon to be 38 years.  First, it was at a Fortune 500 company, and then the post office.  I have participated in labor management meetings, negotiated contracts, and was the carrier representative.  I have been the facilitator for the Employee Involvement program solving work issues.  I have been the facilitator for the Employee Ergonomics solution team, and I currently participate in employee evaluations.  Any out of line language with a complaint filed, and you'll get a formal meeting with management and your representative.  If the person files charges, it will be met with discipline.  They are not playing games anymore.  
Is it really worth risking your job to test the system?

[Apple]

Dec 27, 2017 23:46:29 GMT -5 grits said:

Dec 15, 2017 1:23:56 GMT -5 Apple said:

ETA: please don't quote this, I might delete it later...

Federal government?  They don't give a shit when it comes down to it. *poof* (but really, they don't care, even when you have undeniable proof.)

They don't care when it's high ranking politicians but they do care when it's low level workers.
I have been connected to personnel matters at the places I've worked for soon to be 38 years.  First, it was at a Fortune 500 company, and then the post office.  I have participated in labor management meetings, negotiated contracts, and was the carrier representative.  I have been the facilitator for the Employee Involvement program solving work issues.  I have been the facilitator for the Employee Ergonomics solution team, and I currently participate in employee evaluations.  Any out of line language with a complaint filed, and you'll get a formal meeting with management and your representative.  If the person files charges, it will be met with discipline.  They are not playing games anymore.  
Is it really worth risking your job to test the system?

You missed all the personal experience I later deleted, and I can assure you, that they don't care.  At all.  And they promote the people who participate.  And there is a current situation unfolding (not involving me, but someone I know extremely well), where management is making every horrible move you can imagine, and some you can't.

A portion (please don't quote):
I saved years of documentation (in the form of text messages and emails, sent to my personal number/email (emails were sent from a government computer), and job assignment changes when I refused the sexual requests), and management said the fact that I saved this documentation was "proof of my vengeful spirit".  So, if you can't flat out prove it, it's "your word against his".  When you can prove it?  You are a spiteful person.

One of the men involved was recently promoted to run the location where it all happened, and he's now the boss over 200+ people.  A couple others were promoted to supervisor positions there as well.  

These guys are not testing any system, because the system has proved that it will cover for them time and time again.  And, as I'm watching this other situation unfold, I can see that that has not changed.

[zibazinski]

I agree. I’ve heard plenty of people including women say all the women who accuse one man are just looking for attention or a payoff. Although so many women accused Bill Clinton that my girlfriend wore a t shirt that said she was one of the few that didn’t. I’m sorry I laughed now.

[zibazinski]

Although Latvala from Florida was no secret to anyone. He’s always been a pig