Time to start thinking about college

[milee]

Oct 4, 2017 11:54:34 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Oct 4, 2017 11:45:33 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Or perhaps these institutions recognize that these aren't perfect measures of a student's potential and abilities?

This is so true.  My son scores really high on standardized tests, but he is definitely deficient in other areas that would inhibit his ability to do well in college.  That's what I've been focusing on helping him with through high school.

Same with my son.  Let's just say project management is not going to be his career strength.  Maybe it's because I tend to be normally very hands off so he's not used to much help/advice/input, but I'm finding it's really hard to help him at all now that he's in high school.  Are you finding your son is receptive to input?  And if so, what types of help do you give him that he will accept?

[Deleted]

Oct 4, 2017 11:52:56 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

Oct 4, 2017 11:45:33 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Or perhaps these institutions recognize that these aren't perfect measures of a student's potential and abilities?

So, things like ethnic heritage, limited family income, or lack of college educated parents are better indicators of potential and ability than demonstrated academic achievement?

If there are 15,000 applicants for 1500 positions (last year's stats at the school DS is interested in), a 4.0 GPA and high SAT aren't going to be all it takes because there were probably way more than 1500 applicants with those credentials.

[tskeeter]

Oct 3, 2017 16:12:49 GMT -5 milee said:

Update on applications.

We'll see if he can pull one out of the hat, but DS is seriously off schedule with the app process.  We lost a few days to hurricane prep and the hurricane itself, but I think his issues are more with being shaken and stressed rather than logistics.  We didn't have power at the house for a week after the hurricane and his school was closed for over a week, so I kept suggesting that the enforced down time would be an opportunity for him to work on essays and the general parts of the app.  He didn't.  At all.  And is still struggling to write his essays.  On one level I understand, but am still a little worried.  His essays were always going to be the challenging part for him and what will determine if he gets into one of the top level places he's dying to go... or not.  

He's got a few more weeks before the EA and ED deadlines.  For most of the top level schools, ED (or for certain Ivys - SCEA) makes a significant difference in acceptance rates.  So if he can figure this out before those deadlines, it would help him greatly.

That you can’t see DS working on his essays doesn’t mean he isn’t.  I remember doing an essay for an English final.  I spent the first hour and a quarter of the two hour final looking like I wasn’t doing much.  What I was doing was thinking about and planning my essay.  Once I was prepared, it took less than a half hour to write the essay.  I was one of the first students out of the testing room.  And, I did get an A on that final.

[milee]

Oct 4, 2017 12:00:55 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

Oct 3, 2017 16:12:49 GMT -5 milee said:

Update on applications.

We'll see if he can pull one out of the hat, but DS is seriously off schedule with the app process.  We lost a few days to hurricane prep and the hurricane itself, but I think his issues are more with being shaken and stressed rather than logistics.  We didn't have power at the house for a week after the hurricane and his school was closed for over a week, so I kept suggesting that the enforced down time would be an opportunity for him to work on essays and the general parts of the app.  He didn't.  At all.  And is still struggling to write his essays.  On one level I understand, but am still a little worried.  His essays were always going to be the challenging part for him and what will determine if he gets into one of the top level places he's dying to go... or not.  

He's got a few more weeks before the EA and ED deadlines.  For most of the top level schools, ED (or for certain Ivys - SCEA) makes a significant difference in acceptance rates.  So if he can figure this out before those deadlines, it would help him greatly.

That you can’t see DS working on his essays doesn’t mean he isn’t.  I remember doing an essay for an English final.  I spent the first hour and a quarter of the two hour final looking like I wasn’t doing much.  What I was doing was thinking about and planning my essay.  Once I was prepared, it took less than a half hour to write the essay.  I was one of the first students out of the testing room.  And, I did get an A on that final.

God, I hope you're right.  Because otherwise this kid is going to be living in my basement forever.  

We live in coastal Florida.  If you dig a hole, the bottom starts filling with water before you've dug down 2 feet.  I don't have a basement.

[Lizard Queen]

Oct 4, 2017 11:52:56 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

Oct 4, 2017 11:45:33 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Or perhaps these institutions recognize that these aren't perfect measures of a student's potential and abilities?

So, things like ethnic heritage, limited family income, or lack of college educated parents are better indicators of potential and ability than demonstrated academic achievement?

A couple of those things are obstacles to scoring as well as someone with all the advantages, someone whose parents know the ropes and push their children to succeed via tutors and test prep. Preference for ethnic heritage, I don't agree with, though it can be argued that tests can be biased toward and against certain ethnic groups as well.

I say this as someone who scores in the 97-99th percentiles on tests--they don't show the whole picture. And GPA's can be gamed so much it's not even funny.

[milee]

Selective colleges are fairly immune to GPA gaming.  Almost all of them have their own system for recalculating GPA based on what they feel is important and representative.  The applicant's high school sends a transcript of the courses and reports a "GPA", but almost no college just uses the GPA the high school reports.  Some examples of ways colleges do their own GPA assessment:

- Certain colleges only use grades from a student's 10th and 11th grade years.  Others use grades from 9-11th grade years plus any high school level courses the student took in 8th grade (algebra, certain honors level language and science courses are examples)
- Certain colleges place different weight on grades from honors, AP, or IB courses, some don't.
- Certain colleges don't even use non-core grades in their calculation.  For example, they ignore the A from an art class and only use the grades from science and language courses.  
- Colleges examine the overall "rigor" of the courses taken.  A student who gets a 4.0 GPA without taking any honors, AP or IB courses is not viewed the same way as a student who gets a lower GPA but was taking 5 AP courses at the time.
-  Colleges are even known to give different "weight" to the type of high school the student attended.  A 3.8 GPA from Podunk High School does not equal a 3.8 GPA from Andover.  And since colleges keep detailed records of performance of their students once the students get to college, they know which high schools send them students that are well prepared and which high schools don't prepare students well.

The list goes on...

[swamp]

My head hurts from reading this.

I'm torn between "my kids are fucked" and "it will all work out" 

[Deleted]

Oct 4, 2017 11:59:04 GMT -5 milee said:

Oct 4, 2017 11:54:34 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

This is so true.  My son scores really high on standardized tests, but he is definitely deficient in other areas that would inhibit his ability to do well in college.  That's what I've been focusing on helping him with through high school.

Same with my son.  Let's just say project management is not going to be his career strength.  Maybe it's because I tend to be normally very hands off so he's not used to much help/advice/input, but I'm finding it's really hard to help him at all now that he's in high school.  Are you finding your son is receptive to input?  And if so, what types of help do you give him that he will accept?

He is, and he's not.    He will listen to me and understands where I'm coming from without telling me to leave him alone, but he's not the best for actually DOING the things I suggest! 

His biggest problems are time management, organization and remembering to do things.  He would let school emails sit for days without reading them if I didn't hound on him about it.   His smart watch was probably the best investment into his education.  He has timers, reminders and alarms for everything and that has helped.  Even having a smart phone wasn't enough because he'd have it in his backpack with the ringer turned off and miss everything. 

Mainly I'm trying to help him stay organized and drive home that he HAS to put anything important into his calendar or a reminder in his phone immediately or he will forget it, guaranteed.  We share a Google Calendar and he copies any of his appointments into there so I know what's going on and I typically get copied on every email that is sent to him from teachers and the school so I'll remind him to add things.

Last year was his first year getting homework and he was missing assignments left and right.  I finally got sick of it and said I would check every Friday (the school has a very good parent interface app) and if there was anything missing his phone was gone until it was cleared up and he was getting an old flip phone in it's place.  He lost it 3 weeks last year, but hasn't missed anything since. 

I'm a lot less hands on than I was last year because he's been doing a lot better, but I'm still more involved in reminding him of things than I want to be. 

[tskeeter]

Oct 4, 2017 12:02:32 GMT -5 milee said:

Oct 4, 2017 12:00:55 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

That you can’t see DS working on his essays doesn’t mean he isn’t.  I remember doing an essay for an English final.  I spent the first hour and a quarter of the two hour final looking like I wasn’t doing much.  What I was doing was thinking about and planning my essay.  Once I was prepared, it took less than a half hour to write the essay.  I was one of the first students out of the testing room.  And, I did get an A on that final.

God, I hope you're right.  Because otherwise this kid is going to be living in my basement forever.  

We live in coastal Florida.  If you dig a hole, the bottom starts filling with water before you've dug down 2 feet.  I don't have a basement.

A good object lesson?  Show him what living in your “basement” is going to be like? 

[Regis]

Oct 4, 2017 12:19:07 GMT -5 swamp said:

My head hurts from reading this.

I'm torn between "my kids are fucked" and "it will all work out" 

I felt this way ten years ago about my kids.  It all worked out - two college graduates and another graduating a semester early in December.  It'll be fine, swamp!

[alabamagal]

College is a great way for kids minnesotapaintlady and milee to hopefully mature.  When I dropped my middle son at school I was figuring a 50% chance of him staying in his room playing video games and failing out his first semester.  Fortunately I was wrong.

His first semester he was due a refund check from financial aid.  He failed to sign up for direct deposit so he got an envelope in his mail box.  He said there was only a letter, no check.  I told him to go to Financial aid office and find out what was wrong.  Later that day I saw the deposit in our online bank account.  I had to ask him.  He he handed over the envelope to the financial aid person and they pulled the check out of the envelope.  I just bet they were telling stories about this kid who was so incompetent!  He somehow got his act together and ended up with an award as the top Economics student, kind or ironic as he started out not knowing how to find his check.

[Deleted]

alabamagal - That would be my son.  No doubt. 

Good to hear there's hope!  It's part of the reason I want him to go to school away from home and not stay here.  I don't want to keep sticking my nose in things and I know I'd be too tempted to if he lived at home. 

[giramomma]

I would like to start a support group for sons who drive us mad.

My DS has the same issues..lack of organization...he also has no internal motivation and very little external motivation.

He's the kid where you empty his room out and leave him nothing with a bed and socks in it...he'll find a way to entertain himself with socks and not give a shit.

Plus he thinks he knows everything. How dumb of me to suggest that if he wants to be a history major, that college will still require him to have an acceptable overall GPA.  Colleges only look at history grades. And therefore it doesn't matter if he gets a C- in math because he thinks math is stupid and doesn't like it. And of course, he knows this for a fact.

And of course, for EVERY. SINGLE.COLLEGE., only your 11th and 12th grade GPA matters. Again. Since he believes this to be a verifiable fact I know nothing.

Then he told me that he'll be a grocery store manager like one of his friends' dads, who according to DS, is doing that job with a HS diploma. His friends mom works at the VA as a licensed therapist. And according to DS, she doesn't get paid anything. She does it out of the goodness of her heart.

I don't have the patience to sit and try to work with someone who tells me I'm dumber than shit. (in a more polite way). 

I'm just talking boundaries now. The kid knows I will remove access to his 529 account and I have no problems talking to a lawyer to figure out what we can do to severely limit his access to his taxable account.

He also knows that if he's not in tech school, some sort of apprenticeship program or college at 18, he's not welcome to live in our house, and that it will be up to him to figure out how to live on 20K a year.

If figure if he gets the message for 4-5 years, then he shouldn't be surprised when I stick to my words.

Of course I'd prefer he'd make a different decision. But..he's largely getting to an age where I cannot "make" him do anything. (I'm not interested in doing his homework, going to school with him to make sure it's turned in, etc).  If natural consequences are the only thing that's going to make him change his mind, so be it.   I'm sure this makes me a shit mom on some level.  But...DH and I just can't be that involved, nor are we interested in beating our heads up against a wall with someone.

[thyme4change]

Oct 3, 2017 18:46:47 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

Oct 3, 2017 16:53:01 GMT -5 milee said:

That's big around here, too. 

Many of my friends did that and are frankly a little horrified that I'm not doing that.  To me, it just doesn't feel right.  I try not to do things that feel unfair and for some reason that just feels like cheating to me.  Also, I worry that it might put my kid into a situation he shouldn't be in.  If he can't write an application that gets him admitted to a certain college, maybe that's an indication that he's not at the level needed to be successful at that college.  

Then again, I'm probably being hopelessly naive about that and am actually putting him at a disadvantage.  After all, if many of the other parents at this income level and college type are doing that, then the colleges will expect we have as well and think either we've hired a crappy consultant or that this kid is just a super loser that he did such mediocre work with all that help.  

If this becomes widespread among the monied population, that - not access to funding - will be the new thing to serve as a social filter for colleges. I hope the college bubble expands and bursts before I have to worry about it because things are starting to get a little nutty.

My thoughts exactly. My kids, coming from 2 highly educated parents, who have kept college in our sites from day 1, carefully selected schools, provided homework help and tutors as soon as they were needed, etc, already have a leg up. Now I am going to bring in an expert that understands the system better than regular people and knows all the ins and outs and loop holes. Gee, how can people feel like some are privileged?

[DagnyT]

Oct 3, 2017 16:16:05 GMT -5 milee said:

And on the funny story front... was talking to a friend (not a best friend, but someone I've known for years and been reasonably close to) about college apps since her son is also in the process of applying.  She asked if there were any colleges that we were really impressed with based on the tour and I mentioned Rice in Houston.  Rice was not just impressive from an academic and resource front, but the students we met were all really wonderful - highly intelligent without an ounce of snooty.  Loved it.  My friend physically recoiled at the discussion, exclaiming that she would never be able to send her son to a college "in the south" because her "biggest fear" is that he would meet a southern girl and end up marrying.... a Republican.  

What the heck is wrong with her?? Those are the best girls around. She could not ask for a better daughter-in-law than a Southern girl and if she is Republican that is just icing on the cake.

[saveinla]

I was surprised at my son's college essays. They were coherent and explained things really short and sweet. I had to nag him for a couple of months, but he did a great job.
So there is hope for all you moms out there. The boys grow up to be really great individuals - with all their quirks and everything.

[Deleted]

giramomma - If it's any consolation my son is much better at 15 than he was at 13.  Of course he never pulled the "smarter than me" crap...except with the stuff that he really IS smarter than me about. 

[alabamagal]

Oct 4, 2017 13:17:31 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

alabamagal - That would be my son.  No doubt. 

Good to hear there's hope!  It's part of the reason I want him to go to school away from home and not stay here.  I don't want to keep sticking my nose in things and I know I'd be too tempted to if he lived at home. 

I think my son benefited greatly from going away to school.  We had very limited options where we lived, only a small state community college that was really just an extension of high school, and was a mile from our house.  I am not against community college, but for my DS, it did him good to send him 3 hours away to a large state university.  It helped that the state university was in a college town (we lived in a city of 80k in the middle of nowhere) not a big city school.  It also helped that he was in the top group of students at the school, interviewed for honors program, so that when he decided to put forth effort he was able to succeed.

[Deleted]

Our town is small, only 26K, but there are two universities located here, so it's tempting to encourage him to stay home...but...not much for engineering here anyhow, so if that's what he really wants to go into he'll have to go somewhere else, unless he suddenly develops an interest in composite engineering.  

[NastyWoman]

Oct 4, 2017 12:02:32 GMT -5 milee said:

Oct 4, 2017 12:00:55 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

That you can’t see DS working on his essays doesn’t mean he isn’t.  I remember doing an essay for an English final.  I spent the first hour and a quarter of the two hour final looking like I wasn’t doing much.  What I was doing was thinking about and planning my essay.  Once I was prepared, it took less than a half hour to write the essay.  I was one of the first students out of the testing room.  And, I did get an A on that final.

God, I hope you're right.  Because otherwise this kid is going to be living in my basement forever.  

We live in coastal Florida.  If you dig a hole, the bottom starts filling with water before you've dug down 2 feet.  I don't have a basement.

That might be a great incentive for him to start working on his college stuff

[spartan7886]

milee, from your description of him, your son would definitely fit in well at Rice. He would be an excellent addition to the Owl family. 

[milee]

Oct 5, 2017 8:04:59 GMT -5 spartan7886 said:

milee , from your description of him, your son would definitely fit in well at Rice. He would be an excellent addition to the Owl family. 

I would be beyond ecstatic if he was accepted to and attended Rice.  Great school and it's easy to see why the students there are so happy.

[Deleted]

Oct 4, 2017 14:54:47 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Our town is small, only 26K, but there are two universities located here, so it's tempting to encourage him to stay home...but...not much for engineering here anyhow, so if that's what he really wants to go into he'll have to go somewhere else, unless he suddenly develops an interest in composite engineering.  

Some of our near schools have a 2-3 with Penn State in engineering. You go to the local for 2 and then transfer out. Anything like that? 

Transitioning slowly has helped son I think. 2 general college classes last year when he was a senior, two industry oriented this semester, full time next I think he'll be good. 

Milee. Would he take advice from a third party, not you on the essay? 

[Deleted]

Oct 5, 2017 8:48:59 GMT -5 oped said:

Some of our near schools have a 2-3 with Penn State in engineering. You go to the local for 2 and then transfer out. Anything like that? 

Not that I know of.  They do have a deal in MN that if you get a AA degree at any of the state community colleges that all your General education classes are waived at the 4 year schools. 

I looked at the 4 year course plan for the engineering programs at the schools he was looking at and I think even if he went the first couple years here he'd have to go an extra year there because they start with major specific courses in the first year.  Just a couple the first year, but there are 6 the sophomore year.  He could get all the junior and senior year gen eds out of the way here, but I'm not sure if he could take all those engineering classes at once the last two years with the pre-req requirements. 

[milee]

Oct 5, 2017 8:48:59 GMT -5 oped said:

Oct 4, 2017 14:54:47 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Milee. Would he take advice from a third party, not you on the essay? 

I'm not sure, but was very encouraged by our talk last night.  Since our - how shall I phrase this - "heated discussion" last weekend, I have not broached the subject of college apps.  My concerns and position were clear in that weekend discussion, continuing to prod him would be counterproductive and only serve to further harden his resistance and add to the stress level, so the ball was firmly in his court.  

Last night he mentioned he is increasing his work on the essays and wanted to ask if it would be OK to have one of the school English teachers review and give him feedback on his essays.  DS had just had a preliminary meeting with the English teacher (not one of his current teachers, but one DS knows from prior years, who DS respects and who sometimes performs essay consulting outside school) and felt that it would help him; DS also planned to pay the review fees from money he earned at his current job.  I told him that I was impressed by his actions, that it was the mark of a good project manager to know when the project timeline and quality was at risk and an even better manager who knows when and how to bring in additional resources to help.  I also let him know we'd be willing to cover the expenses, so I guess that probably puts us in the douchey parent category Thyme described.     

DS is meeting with the teacher tonight to review some of his essay drafts.  He also agreed that it made sense to have the essays reviewed by 3 people - first by this teacher he trusts, then when they're ready by a family friend who he respects and finally by me. 

I felt much more optimistic after our talk and was impressed that he'd actually been thinking about our talk and had come up with what sounds like a very reasonable plan.  Now I'm keeping my fingers crossed he'll follow through...  

[Deleted]

Oct 4, 2017 13:25:22 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Oct 3, 2017 18:46:47 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

If this becomes widespread among the monied population, that - not access to funding - will be the new thing to serve as a social filter for colleges. I hope the college bubble expands and bursts before I have to worry about it because things are starting to get a little nutty.

My thoughts exactly. My kids, coming from 2 highly educated parents, who have kept college in our sites from day 1, carefully selected schools, provided homework help and tutors as soon as they were needed, etc, already have a leg up. Now I am going to bring in an expert that understands the system better than regular people and knows all the ins and outs and loop holes. Gee, how can people feel like some are privileged?

Which is again why class based affirmative action is not a bad thing. It 'recorrects' if you will. 

[Deleted]

Milee, I've done that for students. It sounds like a good plan.

[teen persuasion]

Interesting local development in college costs: due to pressure from the governor's "free state college tuition" plan, the highest priced local private college is rolling back prices next year.  Current tuition is $35k, next year $27k, same as in 2008.  Also knocking room charges down by $2k.

Apparently their enrollment is down, presumably because many shifted to SUNY to take advantage of the Excelsior Scholarship.  Personally, I think few will actually see free tuition as there are so many loopholes and gotchas - most won't qualify, or get retroactively changed to loans.

DH and I both had the same thoughts about the private college's big price drop - interesting that they can suddenly just charge lots less!  I have to assume that they will simply adjust FA packages to compensate, but the school has gotten the message the sky high sticker prices scare students away, while promises of "free" attract.  The question is how other local schools will react - now they look more expensive.

[milee]

He's making progress.  Last night he submitted apps for a safety and a match school; both are out of state public unis with early deadlines.  He's working on the supplemental essays for his dream reach school.  The reach school is the one he's in love with and would be a great fit for him, but is truly like a lottery with admission percents that approximate Harvard's (approx 7% of all applicants were accepted, with chances of being admitted during the regular application process around 2%.  Not a typo.)     It's a weird, sad process to apply to the top 20 schools now; you have to have near perfect stats to even get considered, but that's not enough because there are thousands of others with the same stats, so there's a bit of a lottery feeling to it with plenty of "perfect" kids getting rejections.  

So by the end of the month, he'll have applied to 3 places.  Not sure how many of the others on his list he'll get to, but even if this is all he gets done it's reasonable.  I'm starting to think he will not be living in the basement.

[Blonde Granny]

My grandson is just starting his freshman year and was accepted (on full scholarship) into the engineering school at the University of Nebraska - Lincoln. He is already taking his first engineering course, and as smart as he is, he's already saying how difficult college is rather than high school.