Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 11, 2017 11:54:51 GMT -5
This does nothing to prevent the two people from living together. It just prevents them from registering their relationship with the state. Does it prevent a couple from actually going through the ceremony?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 11, 2017 11:57:14 GMT -5
Are you being facetious? If a couple is legally permitted to have sex, why shouldn't they be permitted to marry?
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jun 11, 2017 12:02:26 GMT -5
Marriage is a legal contract, so why no wait until 18.
People can't even legally drink until 21 - so not sure why a decision such as marriage is on the table for a 14 year old.
And the main point is that this has been a loop hole for statutory rapist.
true - you can't prevent determined teens from having sex. Make sure there is free and easy access to birth control for the determined, and they all - determined or not - can wait till 18 to marry.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2017 12:08:16 GMT -5
Are you being facetious? If a couple is legally permitted to have sex, why shouldn't they be permitted to marry? Mostly this applies to people who are not legally permitted to have sex...
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 11, 2017 12:35:36 GMT -5
Marriage at what age? A better question would be sex at what age? How are you going to regulate that? Pass a law,,, that will stop it! Apples and oranges. Marriage, unlike sex, involves a legal contract. We don't let 14-year-olds get credit cards, enlist in the military, or sign just about any other type of contract -- so why should they be allowed to legally bind themselves to another minor (or adult)? ETA - Rukh beat me to it!
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 11, 2017 12:41:43 GMT -5
Marriage is a legal contract, so why no wait until 18. People can't even legally drink until 21 - so not sure why a decision such as marriage is on the table for a 14 year old. And the main point is that this has been a loop hole for statutory rapist. true - you can't prevent determined teens from having sex. Make sure there is free and easy access to birth control for the determined, and they all - determined or not - can wait till 18 to marry. If the law doesn't prevent a couple from going through the ceremony, having sex, or cohabiting, I really don't see what practical use it has. Are you being facetious? If a couple is legally permitted to have sex, why shouldn't they be permitted to marry? Mostly this applies to people who are not legally permitted to have sex... This makes more sense to me. If people are using marriage to circumvent statutory rape laws, bringing marriage laws into sync with the ability to legally have sex is sensible.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jun 11, 2017 14:15:10 GMT -5
Marriage is a legal contract, so why no wait until 18. People can't even legally drink until 21 - so not sure why a decision such as marriage is on the table for a 14 year old. And the main point is that this has been a loop hole for statutory rapist. true - you can't prevent determined teens from having sex. Make sure there is free and easy access to birth control for the determined, and they all - determined or not - can wait till 18 to marry. If the law doesn't prevent a couple from going through the ceremony, having sex, or cohabiting, I really don't see what practical use it has. Mostly this applies to people who are not legally permitted to have sex... This makes more sense to me. If people are using marriage to circumvent statutory rape laws, bringing marriage laws into sync with the ability to legally have sex is sensible.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 11, 2017 14:51:49 GMT -5
I can't imagine the specifics of a case where a judge would approve a marriage of a 14 or 15 year. But I am not sure that my lack of imagination should override the decision of a judge who does know the details. I think that 16 year old should have to have a judge's objective approval as well. I don't think it is worth the effort with 17 year olds.
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quince
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Post by quince on Jun 11, 2017 15:55:30 GMT -5
Alternatively, cool to get married, but it ceases to be a loophole for statutory rape. You can have a sexless marriage.
If something is wrong because age/power dynamic, it does not cease to be wrong if people are married!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2017 17:39:41 GMT -5
I can't imagine the specifics of a case where a judge would approve a marriage of a 14 or 15 year. But I am not sure that my lack of imagination should override the decision of a judge who does know the details. I think that 16 year old should have to have a judge's objective approval as well. I don't think it is worth the effort with 17 year olds. You are older than that. My son is only 38, and I posted about how the small private school he attended was trying to "encourage" two fifteen-year-olds to marry. Unwed mothers are still not acceptable for a large portion of the conservative middle class. I would imagine that a large portion of the cases where the judge approves involves pregnancy. That doesn't make it right. But it is disingenuous to say you can't "imagine" the specifics leading a judge to approve such a marriage.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Jun 11, 2017 18:02:32 GMT -5
I can't imagine the specifics of a case where a judge would approve a marriage of a 14 or 15 year. But I am not sure that my lack of imagination should override the decision of a judge who does know the details. I think that 16 year old should have to have a judge's objective approval as well. I don't think it is worth the effort with 17 year olds. You are older than that. My son is only 38, and I posted about how the small private school he attended was trying to "encourage" two fifteen-year-olds to marry. Unwed mothers are still not acceptable for a large portion of the conservative middle class. I would imagine that a large portion of the cases where the judge approves involves pregnancy. That doesn't make it right. But it is disingenuous to say you can't "imagine" the specifics leading a judge to approve such a marriage. According to whatever article I read (and I am still trying to find it) a lot of these cases are children marrying older men with their parents fucking blessing. And the judge just kind of goes "oh, she's 14 but says they're in love ok I guess." Again according to my memory some of these girls are actually being sold into marriage with the full blessing of the court system. Good times. (Kids driving me batty today I am going to find that article come hell or high water eventually.)
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 11, 2017 18:16:24 GMT -5
... I would imagine that a large portion of the cases where the judge approves involves pregnancy. That doesn't make it right. But it is disingenuous to say you can't "imagine" ... Since you are the arbitrator of what is "right" for all others in the situation of teen pregnancy, I can understand how you are able to declare what I am and am not capable of imagining.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 11, 2017 18:28:52 GMT -5
I think it is a good thing that some relationships are brought voluntarily to the attention of the court system. I wonder how many cases of self reported statutory rape end up in criminal cases instead of marriage. Also consider that there are certainly plenty of young women who are sold into slavery without a contract which ultimately could be to their benefit.
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quince
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Post by quince on Jun 11, 2017 19:00:05 GMT -5
Good idea to outlaw 15 year olds being pressured by their parents to marry also. Forced into that kind of contract by coercion seems like a bad idea.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 11, 2017 19:06:07 GMT -5
Good idea to outlaw 15 year olds being pressured by their parents to marry also. Forced into that kind of contract by coercion seems like a bad idea. What type of parent does such a thing? And what is that type of parent going to do to the 15 year old if they can't marry them off for whatever reason they have for wanting to do it in the first place?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2017 19:09:56 GMT -5
Well, since they can't marry them off and there is compulsory education, at least keep them in school...
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 11, 2017 19:14:56 GMT -5
Well, since they can't marry them off and there is compulsory education, at least keep them in school... Does a marriage license exempt one from compulsory education laws?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2017 19:24:04 GMT -5
Marriage emancipated a minor automatically.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 11, 2017 19:37:45 GMT -5
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Jun 11, 2017 19:49:34 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2017 19:59:56 GMT -5
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beergut
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Post by beergut on Jun 11, 2017 20:15:30 GMT -5
I think the vast majority of these cases where a 14 year old ends up marrying a 25-40 year old are situations where the 25-40 year old male is guilty of statutory rape of the minor female, and is also in some position of power in their local church. Conservative religious parents would rather have their child married off to her rapist than risk the shame of having a sinful daughter who 'defrauded' a male church member, so they sign off on their daughter getting married.
It is fucking disgusting, because parents who should be protecting their children are instead enabling pedophilia under the guise of religion.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Jun 11, 2017 21:37:50 GMT -5
The new law allows marriage with consent and judge at 17. Its the 14-15 yr olds I'm guessing most an issue. I thought the point that shelters cant take unaccompanied minors was an interesting point, meaning that group, already at a much greater risk of coercion and violence in marriage, are also uniquely unable to seek help. I saw this... I think my answer would be to make sure teens (whether married or unmarried) can leave poor situations....whether it's the parents or spouses. I live in a city of 200K. To my knowledge there is only one shelter for youth. A few years back there was a young couple with a toddler and a baby that frequently came in the library. Eventually they asked about how to get a library card, and I gave them applications. They were stymied by the requirement that applicants under 13 years old must have a parent's signature on the application - the girl was not yet 13! The boy was 13, maybe 14, I don't remember anymore. Getting more information on their situation, it turned out their families were nowhere nearby, as in down south somewhere, and I got the distinct impression that they'd either been disowned or run away from a bad family situation. They did not look that young, I was shocked when I learned their ages, especially considering the toddler + infant. I started trying to figure out just how they managed things - too young to drive, are they going to school, are they renting an apartment, are they working and if not where do they get money, why did they travel states to land in my rural village with no public transportation? My mind was boggled, and still is - my youngest is 12, he's in 6th grade, and he's very much a little boy still. These kids were much more mature, responsible, well spoken and intelligent, appearing maybe 18 or twenty. One thing I don't know is if they were married (say, before moving to NY), but after meeting them I'm not sure that a blanket law like this is right. Under this law there's no way they could be married for years, and as some have pointed out marriage is a legal contract conferring legal rights that these kids might need to protect one another and their children. Yes, close the loopholes in child marriage with big disparities in age and other abuses, but maybe allow for unusual circumstances like this story. IDK, I guess I've just learned to never say never - life is shades of gray.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2017 21:48:51 GMT -5
... I would imagine that a large portion of the cases where the judge approves involves pregnancy. That doesn't make it right. But it is disingenuous to say you can't "imagine" ... Since you are the arbitrator of what is "right" for all others in the situation of teen pregnancy, I can understand how you are able to declare what I am and am not capable of imagining. You are throwing sand. I never ever pretended to be the arbitrator. As I tell my students, you don't have to put the words "I think" in front of what you say. Everything is "in my opinion." But you are welcome. Now you are able to "imagine" what make a judge approve such a marriage. That doesn't make it right . . . in my opinion.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Jun 11, 2017 22:08:56 GMT -5
I think the vast majority of these cases where a 14 year old ends up marrying a 25-40 year old are situations where the 25-40 year old male is guilty of statutory rape of the minor female, and is also in some position of power in their local church. Conservative religious parents would rather have their child married off to her rapist than risk the shame of having a sinful daughter who 'defrauded' a male church member, so they sign off on their daughter getting married. It is fucking disgusting, because parents who should be protecting their children are instead enabling pedophilia under the guise of religion. Well if you read about some of these cults you'll find out that many of the mothers of these brides were 15 when they had their children. They don't know any other life.
It's at least 20 years old but a good read about the subject is Jon Krakauer's "Under the Banner of Heaven" about the FDLS located in the Arizona Strip.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 11, 2017 22:18:05 GMT -5
Since you are the arbitrator of what is "right" for all others in the situation of teen pregnancy, I can understand how you are able to declare what I am and am not capable of imagining. You are throwing sand. I never ever pretended to be the arbitrator. As I tell my students, you don't have to put the words "I think" in front of what you say. Everything is "in my opinion." But you are welcome. Now you are able to "imagine" what make a judge approve such a marriage. That doesn't make it right . . . in my opinion. Got it, everything is opinion. In your opinion, I am being disingenuous when I say I can't imagine what set of circumstances would lead a judge to grant permission for a 14 or 15 year old to marry. Enjoy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2017 22:55:06 GMT -5
My cousin got married at 16. She lied about her age. She wasn't your typical 16-year-old, though. She was graduating from high school in a couple of months. Her parents certainly didn't sign anything to allow it. They spent a lot of money sending both her and her husband to college because they were afraid she wouldn't get to go if he didn't. She did it to get away from her parents. On the surface, it was a really dumb decision. If you knew her mother, though, you might not think so. Her mother frequently told her how sorry she was that she was ever born. When she told her mother she got married, her mother said, "If you had told me you wanted to be married, I would have picked you a husband." Really strange dynamic. It wasn't the smartest thing my cousin had ever done, but it wasn't the worst. It broke the cycle of what was clearly emotional abuse. My sister and I lived with my cousin's mother. We were able to survive better because we were older when we went there. My cousin never stood a chance. Her mother potty trained her at 18 months by having her sit on the toilet from the time she woke up until she went to sleep. She ate her meals there. Not surprisingly, the cat also learned how to use the toilet. No one is advocating forced marriages. But the issue is more complex than it appears on the surface. This is why judges need to be trained to be child advocates.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jun 12, 2017 9:27:53 GMT -5
My cousin had a kid at 16, likely conceived at 15.
I'm pretty sure her BF was older than her. We also don't have romeo and Juliet laws, so technically, the baby was conceived from felony rape.
My aunt and uncle (the same ones that got married early) never spoke of pursuing felony rape charges against the young man. Certainly, they could have pursued and likely won, given the fact that they could prove the baby was his. But, I'm also not sure what that would have accomplished.
They didn't get married right away, due to some extenuating circumstances..and money. I know my aunt was pushing for it sooner than later.
They did get married when my cousin was in her late 20s or so. To my knowledge, they are still married.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 12, 2017 13:26:58 GMT -5
I can't imagine the specifics of a case where a judge would approve a marriage of a 14 or 15 year. But I am not sure that my lack of imagination should override the decision of a judge who does know the details. I think that 16 year old should have to have a judge's objective approval as well. I don't think it is worth the effort with 17 year olds. Some people are as emotionally mature at age 12 as the average person is at 21. Few, granted, at the tail end of a normal distribution, but they do exist. A 14-year-old can legally work, and have sexual relations with a 13-, 14-, or 15-year-old. Hence I could see a judge approving the marriage of a 14-year-old and a 15-year-old if it was legal and their parents approved. What I have trouble imagining is a couple giving a toot whether the state recognizes their marriage during its first 2-4 years, unless the marriage is being used to circumvent statutory rape laws. Even in that case, the law is only as useful to the extent that statutory rape is reported. And I suppose if the minor changes his/her mind in the first 2-4 years, (s)he won't have the hassle of filing for divorce.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 12, 2017 14:10:32 GMT -5
Some people are as emotionally mature at age 12 as the average person is at 21. Few, granted, at the tail end of a normal distribution, but they do exist. A 14-year-old can legally work, and have sexual relations with a 13-, 14-, or 15-year-old. Hence I could see a judge approving the marriage of a 14-year-old and a 15-year-old if it was legal and their parents approved. ... I think a responsible judge would ask, "Why?" and I can't imagine the answer that would be satisfactory. Also think that emotionally mature 14 and 15 year olds wouldn't seek to be married at that age. They would be mature enough to know it wasn't a good idea.
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