weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 25, 2017 11:40:10 GMT -5
We need the ability to share intel. Being cut-off from valuable information from other countries will get more of our own citizens killed.
They just had a scary arrest in the largest city near to me. Someone called into the police about "suspicious activity", and it turns out 2 men from the Middle East had a car trunk that contained a loaded AK-47, a grenade, ammunition, and various pieces of bomb-making equipment. Kudos to whoever made the telephone call, but unless citizens are vigilant, we won't always be that lucky. Yes, but evidently, the blabbermouth running the country can't be trusted with intel.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on May 25, 2017 16:47:58 GMT -5
Yes... the authorities lost the element of surprise to make their arrests. Someone could have gotten away. Although, I don't think there is a person in the Country who will protect this lot....given the circumstances..... and all ports and airports will be on alert. I know we all want answers and such.......but we can wait a few days if it means the guilty are brought to justice. I don't live far from Manchester and there is a bomb making cell on the loose. That's a bit of a worry tbh. We do have to share intel but it can't be used as a vessel to sell newspapers. I hate that we are concentrating on the bombers anyway......Publicity is everything they want. What about the families or the people who died.....what about all the acts kindness from strangers which happened that night.? The homeless man who comforted the victims and pulled bolts from a child's face. The taxi drives who ferried people around all night for free. The people who offered spare rooms.....The medics who came in and worked tirelessly. The vigils where spontaneously sang "Dont look back in anger" Isis are finished. This madness is their death throes and we have to sit it out.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 25, 2017 19:20:58 GMT -5
Isis are finished. This madness is their death throes and we have to sit it out. What are you basing this on? The number of radicalized youths has gone straight up since agencies really started keeping track in the mid-2000's. ISIS may not even be responsible for this particular attack, in the sense that the attackers may not have had any contact with ISIS leadership. The broader organization is a series of cells united by a common ideology. They can function more or less independently. It's a serious problem, it's getting worse, and it's not going to go away.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on May 25, 2017 20:28:44 GMT -5
Isis are finished. This madness is their death throes and we have to sit it out. What are you basing this on? The number of radicalized youths has gone straight up since agencies really started keeping track in the mid-2000's. ISIS may not even be responsible for this particular attack, in the sense that the attackers may not have had any contact with ISIS leadership. The broader organization is a series of cells united by a common ideology. They can function more or less independently. It's a serious problem, it's getting worse, and it's not going to go away. Since this "evil loser" spent a month in Libya, it is a good bet ISIS had some leadership on this bombing.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on May 25, 2017 20:30:41 GMT -5
We need the ability to share intel. Being cut-off from valuable information from other countries will get more of our own citizens killed. They just had a scary arrest in the largest city near to me. Someone called into the police about "suspicious activity", and it turns out 2 men from the Middle East had a car trunk that contained a loaded AK-47, a grenade, ammunition, and various pieces of bomb-making equipment. Kudos to whoever made the telephone call, but unless citizens are vigilant, we won't always be that lucky. Great Britain already accepted President Trump's apology, and we are back on sharing terms on all data.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 25, 2017 20:37:26 GMT -5
What are you basing this on? The number of radicalized youths has gone straight up since agencies really started keeping track in the mid-2000's. ISIS may not even be responsible for this particular attack, in the sense that the attackers may not have had any contact with ISIS leadership. The broader organization is a series of cells united by a common ideology. They can function more or less independently. It's a serious problem, it's getting worse, and it's not going to go away. Since this "evil loser" spent a month in Libya, it is a good bet ISIS had some leadership on this bombing. There's probably a Libyan cell involved, I agree. But their organizational taxonomy is akin to the Tea Party or Black Lives Matter. They don't have a single consolidated command structure.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 25, 2017 20:38:47 GMT -5
Seems his family is involved as well. There's a shocker for you.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on May 25, 2017 20:42:28 GMT -5
Seems his family is involved as well. There's a shocker for you. The Brits were embarrassed by this guy. He was on their watch list. He flew a black flag out his apartment window. He paraded on the sidewalk quoting the Quran. He made a fool out of security forces. Of course they arrest family members. In three weeks most will be released because they were not involved.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 25, 2017 20:44:24 GMT -5
Maybe, maybe not. Looks like a brother and father have some issues.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 25, 2017 21:25:04 GMT -5
We need the ability to share intel. Being cut-off from valuable information from other countries will get more of our own citizens killed. They just had a scary arrest in the largest city near to me. Someone called into the police about "suspicious activity", and it turns out 2 men from the Middle East had a car trunk that contained a loaded AK-47, a grenade, ammunition, and various pieces of bomb-making equipment. Kudos to whoever made the telephone call, but unless citizens are vigilant, we won't always be that lucky. Great Britain already accepted President Trump's apology, and we are back on sharing terms on all data. Link? Trump never apologises for anything, ever. Being Trump means never having to say you're sorry.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on May 25, 2017 21:27:54 GMT -5
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 25, 2017 21:54:02 GMT -5
Why are you giving me a link from "fake news"? Is it only fake when it suits you? In any case, there was no apology from Trump mentioned whatsoever. "The Whitehouse gives its assurances" is not an apology.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on May 26, 2017 11:26:25 GMT -5
Seems his family is involved as well. There's a shocker for you. The Brits were embarrassed by this guy. He was on their watch list. He flew a black flag out his apartment window. He paraded on the sidewalk quoting the Quran. He made a fool out of security forces. Of course they arrest family members. In three weeks most will be released because they were not involved. Problem is, freedom of religion is ensconced in our Human Rights legislature. Its part of our culture (and yours) to be tolerant of others who are different. There are many extremists...Muslim or otherwise... who are no danger to anyone. We cannot just chuck people out for waving a flag.... or quoting parts of a religious text. We can, however, have a watch list ....and that is what has happened in this case. This guy was reported, in the first instance..... by members of his own Muslim community.... and his friends. What else are we supposed to do? Many attacks have been thwarted, some occasionally may get through. Our best defence is de-radicalisation.....ie picking up youngsters and working with them before it goes too far.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on May 26, 2017 11:39:35 GMT -5
Isis are finished. This madness is their death throes and we have to sit it out. What are you basing this on? The number of radicalized youths has gone straight up since agencies really started keeping track in the mid-2000's. ISIS may not even be responsible for this particular attack, in the sense that the attackers may not have had any contact with ISIS leadership. The broader organization is a series of cells united by a common ideology. They can function more or less independently. It's a serious problem, it's getting worse, and it's not going to go away. I'm basing it on loss of IS territory..... loss or defection of fighting forces in the Middle East...and the fact that they are not winning the War. There are lone wolf attacks, no doubt...by people who are inspired by this ideology. (Although this particular case seems to be an organised network) We will see more attacks in the coming months as people realise their islamist dream is over....Nothing worse than being irrelevant.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 26, 2017 11:47:47 GMT -5
Yes... the authorities lost the element of surprise to make their arrests. Someone could have gotten away. Although, I don't think there is a person in the Country who will protect this lot....given the circumstances..... and all ports and airports will be on alert. I know we all want answers and such.......but we can wait a few days if it means the guilty are brought to justice. I don't live far from Manchester and there is a bomb making cell on the loose. That's a bit of a worry tbh. We do have to share intel but it can't be used as a vessel to sell newspapers. I hate that we are concentrating on the bombers anyway......Publicity is everything they want. What about the families or the people who died.....what about all the acts kindness from strangers which happened that night.? The homeless man who comforted the victims and pulled bolts from a child's face. The taxi drives who ferried people around all night for free. The people who offered spare rooms.....The medics who came in and worked tirelessly. The vigils where spontaneously sang "Dont look back in anger" Isis are finished. This madness is their death throes and we have to sit it out. I so agree with you! While this was a horrible thing, there were moments of pure beauty and cooperation among those who were most affected by what happened. I found them uplifting even in the face of horror. It made me smile through my tears.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 26, 2017 12:30:27 GMT -5
What are you basing this on? The number of radicalized youths has gone straight up since agencies really started keeping track in the mid-2000's. ISIS may not even be responsible for this particular attack, in the sense that the attackers may not have had any contact with ISIS leadership. The broader organization is a series of cells united by a common ideology. They can function more or less independently. It's a serious problem, it's getting worse, and it's not going to go away. I'm basing it on loss of IS territory..... loss or defection of fighting forces in the Middle East...and the fact that they are not winning the War. There are lone wolf attacks, no doubt...by people who are inspired by this ideology. (Although this particular case seems to be an organised network) We will see more attacks in the coming months as people realise their islamist dream is over....Nothing worse than being irrelevant. Our governments tell us they're losing territory, and I'd like to believe them. Of course, they also told us that al Qaeda was dead and buried... six months before ISIS came up "out of nowhere" and claimed half of Iraq and Syria in a matter of weeks.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on May 26, 2017 12:35:02 GMT -5
Do you think Ariana should go visit the victims?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 26, 2017 12:49:11 GMT -5
Do you think Ariana should go visit the victims? The living ones, sure. Privately. Maybe cheer them up a bit. The families of the dead? Absolutely not.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on May 26, 2017 12:50:17 GMT -5
Well, i was thinking of the victims in the hospital. However as for the dead, it isn't her fault whatsoever that they are dead.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 26, 2017 13:28:57 GMT -5
Well, i was thinking of the victims in the hospital. However as for the dead, it isn't her fault whatsoever that they are dead. Be that as it may, she doesn't have standing to intrude on the families' grief. She's offered condolences through her publicist, which is the appropriate courtesy.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 26, 2017 13:43:20 GMT -5
I found a very interesting article about the perpetrator of the Manchester bombing: The Guardian Article
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on May 26, 2017 13:46:29 GMT -5
seeking out innocent targets rather than a military target - that is cowardice. This is like saying the Greeks infiltrating Troy via subterfuge rather than being futilely dashed to ribbons against the city walls was cowardice. It had nothing to do with cowardice, it had to do with tactics that worked and were effective versus tactics that weren't.
As a matter of logistical fact, ISIS can't win in a direct military confrontation with the west and they know this. They're outmanned and outgunned a hundred to one. But there are tactics--in particular, mass civilian bombings--that create deep turmoil, division, uncertainty, and fear in the west. These are the tactics they've chosen to employ because they're the only tactics with any real effectiveness, like the Greeks at the walls of Troy.If your argument is that ISIS fighters are cowards unless they charge headfirst into our firing lines to be mowed down, I can't agree with you. Hastening to be annihilated isn't bravery, it's stupidity. They're utterly callous and lacking in valour; this much is obvious. I see a lot of evidence of vindictiveness. Their "official" twits and tweets include passages to the effect of "Now you know how it feels," referring to their own civilian casualties. But I see no evidence of cowardice. That's an interesting point... ISIS isn't ever going to 'win' - they can't take and keep an area, they don't seem to want to put a 'man in office' who will be the leader that everyone would follow. I'm pretty sure the upper echelons of their "powers that be" know this. The bombings aren't about "taking down an enemy" or getting themselves into some sort of last position of power... it's about keeping their "organization" alive... getting new recruits, keeping themselves relevant in a changing world. From that perspective Why not target women and children? It's revenge or maybe justice (in a lex talionis sorta way).
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 26, 2017 13:48:34 GMT -5
I am sure Arianna is shell shocked and going thru her own period of grief. How she chooses to handle that is her business.
Thinking about it hypothetically I am not sure how I would feel as a parent if she came to visit my child. I'm having a mixed reaction thinking about it.
Virgil is right that she's expressed condolences thru her publicist which is appropriate. I'm not going to hold it against her if she doesn't do more than that.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 26, 2017 13:53:40 GMT -5
I've read that Ms. Grande is planning a memorial concert in Manchester. Plans are being developed and will be announced when complete.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 26, 2017 14:25:40 GMT -5
The Brits were embarrassed by this guy. He was on their watch list. He flew a black flag out his apartment window. He paraded on the sidewalk quoting the Quran. He made a fool out of security forces. Of course they arrest family members. In three weeks most will be released because they were not involved. Problem is, freedom of religion is ensconced in our Human Rights legislature. Its part of our culture (and yours) to be tolerant of others who are different. There are many extremists...Muslim or otherwise... who are no danger to anyone. We cannot just chuck people out for waving a flag.... or quoting parts of a religious text. We can, however, have a watch list ....and that is what has happened in this case. This guy was reported, in the first instance..... by members of his own Muslim community.... and his friends. What else are we supposed to do? Many attacks have been thwarted, some occasionally may get through. Our best defence is de-radicalisation.....ie picking up youngsters and working with them before it goes too far. The attacker was influenced by a Canadian imam. They preach death to infidels and death to Jews in the mosques. Nobody says boo, but then they whine about "Islamophobia". news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/manchester-bombing-suspect-salman-abedi-reportedly-linked-to-former-ottawa-extremist-imam
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on May 26, 2017 17:49:20 GMT -5
He was reported to the authorities by an Imam at the local Mosque......but you are right there has been Wahhabi literature appearing in the local communities, followed by a denial that it is happening. It has to routed out.....and its doing he local law abiding citizens no favours at all. We have lots of mixed communities and they generally get along just fine. We don't need outsiders coming in to divide us.
As for Ariana Grande... she is going back to Manchester for a benefit concert.
Good on her... She is little more than a kid herself.
What the people of Manchester want is for her to sing...That's what the youngsters loved about her.... and there could be no better tribute.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on May 26, 2017 19:22:31 GMT -5
As for Ariana Grande... she is going back to Manchester for a benefit concert. Good on her... She is little more than a kid herself. What the people of Manchester want is for her to sing...That's what the youngsters loved about her.... and there could be no better tribute. Ariana cancelled the remainder of her tour. I would guess she is shell shocked by what happened. Good on her for planning a benefit concert when things feel safer and the families can have some fun again.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on May 26, 2017 19:31:56 GMT -5
Why are you giving me a link from "fake news"? Is it only fake when it suits you? In any case, there was no apology from Trump mentioned whatsoever. "The Whitehouse gives its assurances" is not an apology. The report was from Reuters. I have never said anything about Reuters being fake news, as best As I can remember.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 26, 2017 19:38:41 GMT -5
... Ariana cancelled the remainder of her tour. I would guess she is shell shocked by what happened. ... She needs to do what is right for her but it is unfortunate she isn't able to continue her tour. Hate to see terrorism win.
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Post by TheOtherMe on May 27, 2017 9:01:32 GMT -5
Yes and probably concerned for her safety
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