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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on May 23, 2017 12:57:05 GMT -5
Terrorists want the soft targets, that causes the biggest mayhem in the population. It sucks, but that's the reality of terror. It is more psychological than anything. Not only is damage being done, but the psychological effects on the population as a whole are a lot different than had they gone after a military installation. Other than the fact that they'd have a much harder time getting close, any congregation of people is going to be a target in the future, whether it is a concert, a ball game, a party or a marathon. Other than the fact that you simply cannot protect those targets, it causes people to think about avoiding them. We went to Paris about 3 weeks after the nightclub bombings. In fact, the hotel I was thinking about staying at in Paris was nearby. As I am a horrible procrastinator, at that point I had made no reservations but had been researching things and had ideas as to where/when I wanted to go. Hotels that were not available when I looked before the bombing were available - and prices dropped between 30-40% across the board. They scared people off, and that was their point.
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Jaguar
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Post by Jaguar on May 23, 2017 12:59:07 GMT -5
Terrorists want the soft targets, that causes the biggest mayhem in the population. It sucks, but that's the reality of terror. It is more psychological than anything. I know. Every time I get on the subway, I'm looking for that strange person. Sad thing is though everyone looks normal.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 23, 2017 13:11:29 GMT -5
Salman Abedi ...British born from Libyan decent.....is the bomber. I didn't want to give a name earlier as British intelligence hadn't authorized information to be divulged yet. They have done so now. The age of the perp has been corrected from 23 to 22.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 23, 2017 13:25:07 GMT -5
seeking out innocent targets rather than a military target - that is cowardice. This is like saying the Greeks infiltrating Troy via subterfuge rather than being futilely dashed to ribbons against the city walls was cowardice. It had nothing to do with cowardice, it had to do with tactics that worked and were effective versus tactics that weren't. As a matter of logistical fact, ISIS can't win in a direct military confrontation with the west and they know this. They're outmanned and outgunned a hundred to one. But there are tactics--in particular, mass civilian bombings--that create deep turmoil, division, uncertainty, and fear in the west. These are the tactics they've chosen to employ because they're the only tactics with any real effectiveness, like the Greeks at the walls of Troy. If your argument is that ISIS fighters are cowards unless they charge headfirst into our firing lines to be mowed down, I can't agree with you. Hastening to be annihilated isn't bravery, it's stupidity. They're utterly callous and lacking in valour; this much is obvious. I see a lot of evidence of vindictiveness. Their "official" twits and tweets include passages to the effect of "Now you know how it feels," referring to their own civilian casualties. But I see no evidence of cowardice.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 23, 2017 13:28:02 GMT -5
I've said in the past: we're in a war, terror is the enemy's most potent weapon in that war, and one inspires terror by bombing indiscriminately. You need to think strategically to understand these people. As loathe as we are to admit it, they're rational, calculating actors with clear objectives and an overriding mission. They are not "frustrated little glory seeking cowards" like the Columbine shooters of the world. I am differentiating between the callous SOBs in ISIS central that are claiming credit and issuing fatwas (which they are not legitimately able to do, btw) and the misguided pathetic souls in the west that carry out these sorts of attacks. These pathetic little bastards are very much like the Columbine shooters in many ways. Ah. Regarding the trigger man, I honestly don't know. Was this man a soldier at heart? Was he a sadistic little boy? I don't see how we can reach a conclusion without knowing a lot more about him.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on May 23, 2017 13:29:27 GMT -5
Salman Abedi ...British born from Libyan decent.....is the bomber. I didn't want to give a name earlier as British intelligence hadn't authorized information to be divulged yet. They have done so now. The age of the perp has been corrected from 23 to 22. I don't care who he was and publishing his name repeatedly only glorifies and publicizes the cruel mayhem he committed. Let's NOT give these heretics names. Who gives a crap who they are??!!
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on May 23, 2017 13:32:50 GMT -5
I don't even know what your trying to talk about here. Where has anyone indicated confusion on what terrorism is or the current existence of a continuing campaign of terrorism against western targets? And there is no indication that individual terrorists in general, and this one in particular - are not glory seeking cowards. And further, just because someone is rational and calculating - whether their objectives are clear or overriding - does not bar them from being a glory seeking coward. seeking out innocent targets rather than a military target - that is cowardice.
But you are missing the point. It is the same reason why any other undefended event is targeted, whether it is a nightclub, shoppers in the street or anything else. These targets are not meant to show cowardice, but to unsettle the population as a whole. They are expecting EXACTLY your response. It is cowardly to go after a concert of mostly young people, and their point is that no place is safe from terrorism. Going after a military target is expected, going after a concert of teenyboppers is not. You upend what is considered 'legal' in war.....but this isn't war. How many more people are bothered that they attacked suck a concert? A LOT are.....and that's what they want, so it was an effective move. Cheating by anyone else's standards, but they don't care. Sorry no, I did not miss the point. I did not in fact address their point in the slightest. Does "the point" make them less cowardly? Less self aggrandizing? Less inhuman? Less pathetic excuses? I don't think so.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on May 23, 2017 13:35:38 GMT -5
It is more psychological than anything. I know. Every time I get on the subway, I'm looking for that strange person. Sad thing is though everyone looks normal. "Everyone looks normal " We definitely ride different subways
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on May 23, 2017 13:37:30 GMT -5
seeking out innocent targets rather than a military target - that is cowardice. This is like saying the Greeks infiltrating Troy via subterfuge rather than being futilely dashed to ribbons against the city walls was cowardice. It had nothing to do with cowardice, it had to do with tactics that worked and were effective versus tactics that weren't. As a matter of logistical fact, ISIS can't win in a direct military confrontation with the west and they know this. They're outmanned and outgunned a hundred to one. But there are tactics--in particular, mass civilian bombings--that create deep turmoil, division, uncertainty, and fear in the west. These are the tactics they've chosen to employ because they're the only tactics with any real effectiveness, like the Greeks at the walls of Troy. If your argument is that ISIS fighters are cowards unless they charge headfirst into our firing lines to be mowed down, I can't agree with you. Hastening to be annihilated isn't bravery, it's stupidity. They're utterly callous and lacking in valour; this much is obvious. I see a lot of evidence of vindictiveness. Their "official" twits and tweets include passages to the effect of "Now you know how it feels," referring to their own civilian casualties. But I see no evidence of cowardice. Completely missed the point.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on May 23, 2017 13:39:02 GMT -5
But you are missing the point. It is the same reason why any other undefended event is targeted, whether it is a nightclub, shoppers in the street or anything else. These targets are not meant to show cowardice, but to unsettle the population as a whole. They are expecting EXACTLY your response. It is cowardly to go after a concert of mostly young people, and their point is that no place is safe from terrorism. Going after a military target is expected, going after a concert of teenyboppers is not. You upend what is considered 'legal' in war.....but this isn't war. How many more people are bothered that they attacked suck a concert? A LOT are.....and that's what they want, so it was an effective move. Cheating by anyone else's standards, but they don't care. Sorry no, I did not miss the point. I did not in fact address their point in the slightest. Does "the point" make them less cowardly? Less self aggrandizing? Less inhuman? Less pathetic excuses? I don't think so. Virgil said this much more eloquently than I did. This is not seen as a cowardly move because that is not their intent. They KNOW that they can do the most damage to the west by choosing soft targets that we cannot defend. Is it less cowardly to target a marathon? A nightclub? An office building? A shopping market? Nope, no more than targeting an Ariana Grande concert because the concert served their purpose. They went in to do the most damage they could and the fact that it was a suicide bomber means that going after soft targets, where there is no defense, serves this purpose. Age, or the fact that the better part of the concert goers were teenage girls has nothing to do with it.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on May 23, 2017 13:40:35 GMT -5
It is more psychological than anything. I know. Every time I get on the subway, I'm looking for that strange person. Sad thing is though everyone looks normal. I suspect that every other person who plans something like this tries to look as normal as possible. I really doubt that anyone looking to cause havoc is going to dress or act in an outlandish manner in order to draw attention to themselves. That is the last possible thing that they want to do.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on May 23, 2017 13:40:40 GMT -5
Salman Abedi ...British born from Libyan decent.....is the bomber. I didn't want to give a name earlier as British intelligence hadn't authorized information to be divulged yet. They have done so now. The age of the perp has been corrected from 23 to 22. I think there was confusion. The bomber is 22. The person they appear to be looking for is 23, and according to what I read his older brother.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 23, 2017 13:44:42 GMT -5
I didn't want to give a name earlier as British intelligence hadn't authorized information to be divulged yet. They have done so now. The age of the perp has been corrected from 23 to 22. I think there was confusion. The bomber is 22. The person they appear to be looking for is 23, and according to what I read his older brother. Hmm. I've missed that, opti. There's a lot of talk and it all doesn't go in the same direction. Hopefully, what actually happened will be clarified with time.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 23, 2017 13:47:02 GMT -5
Completely missed the point. I'm apparently not the only one who's missing it, hence perhaps you could clarify. If the terrorists' strategy of indiscriminately attacking civilian targets isn't what you're calling "cowardice", what are you calling "cowardice"? If this strategy is what you're calling "cowardice", then while you and I may disagree on the matter, I don't see how I'm missing the point.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on May 23, 2017 13:56:22 GMT -5
I didn't want to give a name earlier as British intelligence hadn't authorized information to be divulged yet. They have done so now. The age of the perp has been corrected from 23 to 22. I think there was confusion. The bomber is 22. The person they appear to be looking for is 23, and according to what I read his older brother. And I am guessing a young looking 22 year old? I would imagine that this would fit right in with the demographics of who would be attending an Ariana Grande concert.
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Poptart
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Post by Poptart on May 23, 2017 13:58:40 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of Ariana's music but I feel for her, I can't imagine how devastated she must be and Jesus, how can I even start to explain how much my heart hurts for the poor people that died.
I watched Trump's statements live and I have to wonder, are his supporters okay with him sounding like a child, he struggled to read his speech so much that it was cringe worthy.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on May 23, 2017 14:01:13 GMT -5
Completely missed the point. I'm apparently not the only one who's missing it, hence perhaps you could clarify. If the terrorists' strategy of indiscriminately attacking civilian targets isn't what you're calling "cowardice", what are you calling "cowardice"? If this strategy is what you're calling "cowardice", then while you and I may disagree on the matter, I don't see how I'm missing the point. You counter the word "cowardly" with "effective" as if those are mutually exclusive categories. For no other reason than to wax poetic about the effectiveness of said terrorism. A topic no one was discussing in the slightest until you decided - with no basis- that it was a proof against cowardice.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 23, 2017 14:22:33 GMT -5
I'm apparently not the only one who's missing it, hence perhaps you could clarify. If the terrorists' strategy of indiscriminately attacking civilian targets isn't what you're calling "cowardice", what are you calling "cowardice"? If this strategy is what you're calling "cowardice", then while you and I may disagree on the matter, I don't see how I'm missing the point. You counter the word "cowardly" with "effective" as if those are mutually exclusive categories. For no other reason than to wax poetic about the effectiveness of said terrorism. A topic no one was discussing in the slightest until you decided - with no basis- that it was a proof against cowardice. I'm not categorically denying that terrorists can be cowards, I'm saying their choice of strategy isn't evidence of cowardice. You're the one who's asserted otherwise in absolute terms.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on May 23, 2017 14:29:18 GMT -5
You counter the word "cowardly" with "effective" as if those are mutually exclusive categories. For no other reason than to wax poetic about the effectiveness of said terrorism. A topic no one was discussing in the slightest until you decided - with no basis- that it was a proof against cowardice. I'm not categorically denying that terrorists can be cowards, I'm saying their choice of strategy isn't evidence of cowardice. You're the one who's asserted otherwise in absolute terms. I absolutely call the strategy of killing innocent people cowardly. I absolutely call targeting a venue of youths and children cowardly. You deem it effective, so we will disagree as to its defining characteristic.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 23, 2017 14:37:51 GMT -5
I'm not categorically denying that terrorists can be cowards, I'm saying their choice of strategy isn't evidence of cowardice. You're the one who's asserted otherwise in absolute terms. I absolutely call the strategy of killing innocent people cowardly. I absolutely call targeting a venue of youths and children cowardly. You deem it effective, so we will disagree as to its defining characteristic. You want a defining characteristic? Tragic. Wars have long been the greatest of tragedies, whether it's soldiers dying, or marketgoers in Mosul, or young girls at a pop concert in Manchester.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on May 23, 2017 15:19:32 GMT -5
I absolutely call the strategy of killing innocent people cowardly. I absolutely call targeting a venue of youths and children cowardly. You deem it effective, so we will disagree as to its defining characteristic. You want a defining characteristic? Tragic. Wars have long been the greatest of tragedies, whether it's soldiers dying, or marketgoers in Mosul, or young girls at a pop concert in Manchester. Now you've switched the object of description from the perpetrator to the event. I don't think any one intimidated that this - or any other terrorist attack- was anything but a tragic loss of lives
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 23, 2017 15:32:40 GMT -5
You want a defining characteristic? Tragic. Wars have long been the greatest of tragedies, whether it's soldiers dying, or marketgoers in Mosul, or young girls at a pop concert in Manchester. Now you've switched the object of description from the perpetrator to the event. I don't think any one intimidated that this - or any other terrorist attack- was anything but a tragic loss of lives You switched from claiming civilian bombing is cowardice to claiming I believe "effective" is its defining characteristic, which isn't true. Hence I switched and gave you the defining characteristic. Furthermore, as your own post acknowledges ("I absolutely call the strategy of killing innocent people cowardly"), we are talking about a strategy, not any one perpetrator or event. "Tragic" is the defining characteristic of this strategy and of warcraft generally.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on May 23, 2017 18:00:49 GMT -5
My heart hurts for every family who lost a loved one last night at the concert and for every family who had a loved one injured.
Actually, my heart hurts for everyone in attendance at the concert. They won't be forgetting the concert for a long time.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on May 23, 2017 22:23:16 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of Ariana's music but I feel for her, I can't imagine how devastated she must be and Jesus, how can I even start to explain how much my heart hurts for the poor people that died. I watched Trump's statements live and I have to wonder, are his supporters okay with him sounding like a child, he struggled to read his speech so much that it was cringe worthy. Wow. Are you going to politicize this? Can you not even have some respect for the dead?
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on May 24, 2017 13:35:58 GMT -5
This was a sophisticated bomb which was covered in bolts and nails. (Most of the injuries seem to be to the legs...... as the blast went outwards at a low level) Its the sort of bomb which is very unstable and would need to have been made in the vicinity. There have been lots of arrests. Seems we have a local bomb maker....Hence the critical level for risk of attack. Its not something we haven't seen before.....The IRA blew Manchester City Centre to smithereens with a 1000 lb Semtex bomb...... just over 20 years ago. Stay safe people. RIP... those lovely young faces...They didnt deserve this for just wanting to watch their favourite Pop Star.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on May 24, 2017 19:33:17 GMT -5
RIP... those lovely young faces...They didnt deserve this for just wanting to watch their favourite Pop Star.
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milee
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Post by milee on May 25, 2017 6:39:20 GMT -5
People express grief in different ways.
Some cry. Some send flowers. Some send money or help. Some condemn the actions of the perpetrators or express frustration.
And some... show up, pull out their red pen and correct grammatical errors on the sympathy cards before proceeding to pick fights with the grievers. Because arguing semantics with and lecturing people expressing grief is such a classy thing to do.
I'm looking at you, Virgil. You're being an ass.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 25, 2017 8:01:30 GMT -5
Salman Abedi ...British born from Libyan decent.....is the bomber. I didn't want to give a name earlier as British intelligence hadn't authorized information to be divulged yet. They have done so now. The age of the perp has been corrected from 23 to 22. And the beat goes on. May to confront Trump as UK police stop sharing attack information with U.S.British Prime Minister Theresa May said on Thursday she would tell U.S. President Donald Trump that intelligence shared between their two countries had to remain secure after leaks to U.S. media about the Manchester attack. British police stopped sharing information about the suicide bombing with the United States, a British counter-terrorism source told Reuters earlier, after police chiefs said the leaks to media risked hindering their investigation. May to confront Trump as UK police stop sharing attack information with U.S
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 25, 2017 8:27:26 GMT -5
This was a sophisticated bomb which was covered in bolts and nails. (Most of the injuries seem to be to the legs...... as the blast went outwards at a low level) Its the sort of bomb which is very unstable and would need to have been made in the vicinity. There have been lots of arrests. Seems we have a local bomb maker....Hence the critical level for risk of attack. Its not something we haven't seen before.....The IRA blew Manchester City Centre to smithereens with a 1000 lb Semtex bomb...... just over 20 years ago. Stay safe people. RIP... those lovely young faces...They didnt deserve this for just wanting to watch their favourite Pop Star. I read last night there have been 8 arrests, so far, in connection with this deplorable act.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on May 25, 2017 8:32:28 GMT -5
We need the ability to share intel. Being cut-off from valuable information from other countries will get more of our own citizens killed. They just had a scary arrest in the largest city near to me. Someone called into the police about "suspicious activity", and it turns out 2 men from the Middle East had a car trunk that contained a loaded AK-47, a grenade, ammunition, and various pieces of bomb-making equipment. Kudos to whoever made the telephone call, but unless citizens are vigilant, we won't always be that lucky.
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