Ava
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Post by Ava on May 22, 2017 20:06:58 GMT -5
Excellent thoughts and discussion on this thread. I have to go back and read many of the comments.
Just to clarify, this isn't about me or my personal situation. I am not miserable in this country and I am not complaining. It's just an observation and my point of view. Also saying I don't consider the U.S. a first world country is not derogatory on my part. I was born and grew up in a third world country, nothing wrong with that.
It's just that I think this country has the possibility of doing so much better. Particularly when it comes to healthcare, education, and a strong safety net for all of us.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on May 22, 2017 20:16:44 GMT -5
Excellent thoughts and discussion on this thread. I have to go back and read many of the comments. Just to clarify, this isn't about me or my personal situation. I am not miserable in this country and I am not complaining. It's just an observation and my point of view. Also saying I don't consider the U.S. a first world country is not derogatory on my part. I was born and grew up in a third world country, nothing wrong with that. It's just that I think this country has the possibility of doing so much better. Particularly when it comes to healthcare, education, and a strong safety net for all of us. But Ava.....those things cost money. Are you ok with 60% of your paycheck going for taxes? Sweden has some excellent benefits....but they are also undergoing a brain drain. Highly educated, hard working professionals are tired of 65+% of their paycheck going to taxes. There is no incentive to work harder because harder work does not mean more money in their pockets, just higher taxes. I was talking to one of the visiting dentists (who is now a US citizen and teaching at Harvard). Despite him working his ass off for a DDS, a specialty MS (in perio) and getting a PhD, his standard of living was not much more than the local sales person. So how would you feel, Ava....if after working your ass off for your degrees, passing all the certification exams, that any increase in salary you receive is going to go to the government?
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 22, 2017 20:24:51 GMT -5
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milee
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Post by milee on May 22, 2017 20:29:52 GMT -5
Excellent thoughts and discussion on this thread. I have to go back and read many of the comments. Just to clarify, this isn't about me or my personal situation. I am not miserable in this country and I am not complaining. It's just an observation and my point of view. Also saying I don't consider the U.S. a first world country is not derogatory on my part. I was born and grew up in a third world country, nothing wrong with that. It's just that I think this country has the possibility of doing so much better. Particularly when it comes to healthcare, education, and a strong safety net for all of us. But Ava.....those things cost money. Are you ok with 60% of your paycheck going for taxes? Sweden has some excellent benefits....but they are also undergoing a brain drain. Highly educated, hard working professionals are tired of 65+% of their paycheck going to taxes. There is no incentive to work harder because harder work does not mean more money in their pockets, just higher taxes. I was talking to one of the visiting dentists (who is now a US citizen and teaching at Harvard). Despite him working his ass off for a DDS, a specialty MS (in perio) and getting a PhD, his standard of living was not much more than the local sales person. So how would you feel, Ava....if after working your ass off for your degrees, passing all the certification exams, that any increase in salary you receive is going to go to the government? This is already an issue here in the US, even though our taxes are lower than the taxes in places like Sweden. DH and I have had many other good business ideas over the past few years, but when I put numbers down, it's just not appealing to do all the work required to get another startup going given that we'll keep less than 50% of the income. We already live a really nice, comfy life and remember well what effort it took to get this business going. The payoff isn't worth the work for us given that we already have a good income. If we were still just starting out or even at our prior corporate jobs it would definitely make sense for us to get one of these ideas going since most of them would likely generate 1% type income, but given every single extra dollar of income we make now is taxed around 50%, the amount of work required is disproportional to the enjoyment we'd get out of the extra money at this point. Not that this is a huge deal for society that people already making good money decide not to make more money, but our business does employ people and each of those other ideas would also create jobs and extra economic activity for our area, so we're not the only one that misses out on opportunities when we pass on starting more businesses. If our tax and income situation was flat like what Mich is describing in Sweden, there is no way in Hades I would have bothered to become a CPA or to have started a business at all. Work all those hours to make the same income as a local salesperson? No way. I'd happily work as a cashier at the local grocery store and enjoy my free time. And this works OK for a country for a short period of time, but over years the erosion of incentive and brain drain decreases the tax base. Right now, I pay six figures in taxes every year. I'm thinking as a cashier I'd be contributing a wee bit less and taking a lot more from the social safety net.
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Ava
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Post by Ava on May 22, 2017 21:18:44 GMT -5
Excellent thoughts and discussion on this thread. I have to go back and read many of the comments. Just to clarify, this isn't about me or my personal situation. I am not miserable in this country and I am not complaining. It's just an observation and my point of view. Also saying I don't consider the U.S. a first world country is not derogatory on my part. I was born and grew up in a third world country, nothing wrong with that. It's just that I think this country has the possibility of doing so much better. Particularly when it comes to healthcare, education, and a strong safety net for all of us. But Ava.....those things cost money. Are you ok with 60% of your paycheck going for taxes? Sweden has some excellent benefits....but they are also undergoing a brain drain. Highly educated, hard working professionals are tired of 65+% of their paycheck going to taxes. There is no incentive to work harder because harder work does not mean more money in their pockets, just higher taxes. I was talking to one of the visiting dentists (who is now a US citizen and teaching at Harvard). Despite him working his ass off for a DDS, a specialty MS (in perio) and getting a PhD, his standard of living was not much more than the local sales person. So how would you feel, Ava....if after working your ass off for your degrees, passing all the certification exams, that any increase in salary you receive is going to go to the government? I'm fine with that. I would still do what I do. I would work, study, get my professional license, etc. Having a strong safety net and people around me having a good life is my idea of happiness. If everybody has good healthcare coverage, affordable housing, affordable education, it's alright by me. As long as I have enough to live on and get the basics covered, I'm good.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 22, 2017 21:23:58 GMT -5
10th place. many of the countries mentioned in the OP are ahead of you.
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milee
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Post by milee on May 22, 2017 21:26:44 GMT -5
BS on the idea that most people would voluntarily work huge extra hours at more difficult and often unenjoyable work without the reward of additional compensation.
Just... BS. If that's true - you can put your money where your mouth is right now and start donating all your extra income to charitable causes.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 22, 2017 21:27:58 GMT -5
10th place. many of the countries mentioned in the OP are ahead of you. Yep, tied with Canada. The question wasn't wheather the US was on top of the HDI, but Whether or not it was a first world country. In my opinion, the data supports that.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 22, 2017 21:30:37 GMT -5
Excellent thoughts and discussion on this thread. I have to go back and read many of the comments. Just to clarify, this isn't about me or my personal situation. I am not miserable in this country and I am not complaining. It's just an observation and my point of view. Also saying I don't consider the U.S. a first world country is not derogatory on my part. I was born and grew up in a third world country, nothing wrong with that. It's just that I think this country has the possibility of doing so much better. Particularly when it comes to healthcare, education, and a strong safety net for all of us. But Ava.....those things cost money. Are you ok with 60% of your paycheck going for taxes? Sweden has some excellent benefits....but they are also undergoing a brain drain. Highly educated, hard working professionals are tired of 65+% of their paycheck going to taxes. There is no incentive to work harder because harder work does not mean more money in their pockets, just higher taxes. I was talking to one of the visiting dentists (who is now a US citizen and teaching at Harvard). Despite him working his ass off for a DDS, a specialty MS (in perio) and getting a PhD, his standard of living was not much more than the local sales person. So how would you feel, Ava....if after working your ass off for your degrees, passing all the certification exams, that any increase in salary you receive is going to go to the government? Again....what you pay in health care premiums, deductibles, co-pays, post-secondary education, child care, nursing homes, etc., exceeds what the others pay in taxes.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 22, 2017 21:32:08 GMT -5
I would say a country like Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Germany or France are first world in my opinion. The issues that make me question whether the U.S. is first world are, mainly; -high income inequality -expensive healthcare that is not accessible to all citizens -insufficient mental health care -expensive education -expensive child care -crumbling infrastructure and lack of access to good public transportation systems -high incarceration rates and for-profit prisons -lack of a good social safety net All these issues could be easily fixed, I believe. The money and the resources are there. So you believe only socialist countries are first world countries? Those countries aren't socialist. Look up the meaning of socialist. You probably think Canada is socialist as well. You'd be wrong.
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milee
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Post by milee on May 22, 2017 21:32:09 GMT -5
10th place. many of the countries mentioned in the OP are ahead of you. Yep, tied with Canada. I'd say that fits the bill of a first world country. This cannot possibly be true. We have repeatedly been told about the perfection and greatness that is Canada and how the US is a cesspit of despair. Please check to make sure there has not been a typo.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 22, 2017 21:34:05 GMT -5
Yep, tied with Canada. I'd say that fits the bill of a first world country. This cannot possibly be true. We have repeated been told about the perfection and greatness that is Canada and how the US is a cesspit of despair. Please check to make sure there has not been a typo. Who told you Canada was perfect? It isn't.
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milee
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Post by milee on May 22, 2017 21:34:58 GMT -5
This cannot possibly be true. We have repeated been told about the perfection and greatness that is Canada and how the US is a cesspit of despair. Please check to make sure there has not been a typo. Who told you Canada was perfect? It isn't. I know. The several dozen wealthy businesspeople and doctors I know that have fled Canada's high taxes/low opportunities to live here in the US have explained it to me.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 22, 2017 21:37:09 GMT -5
Yep, tied with Canada. I'd say that fits the bill of a first world country. This cannot possibly be true. We have repeated been told about the perfection and greatness that is Canada and how the US is a cesspit of despair. Please check to make sure there has not been a typo. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_IndexThe us rose and Canada dropped from the 2015 statistics to tie with each other.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 22, 2017 21:37:51 GMT -5
And there are doctors who have fled the US to work in Canada. What's your point?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 22, 2017 21:40:20 GMT -5
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milee
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Post by milee on May 22, 2017 21:43:34 GMT -5
The point is that for high income earners like Mich is describing - the doctor from Sweden for example or the docs and businesspeople I'm describing - your claim that the US taxes plus healthcare, post secondary education costs, etc equals the taxes they would pay in Canada or Sweden is not true. They're smart enough to do the math and to know that it's not only less expensive for them to pay US taxes plus those other things, but in the long term they believe that the social system in those countries is not sustainable so taxes will have to increase even more in those places.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on May 22, 2017 21:58:36 GMT -5
DH'S old college roommate went to dental school/practices in Florida. He was telling us about a professor from Sweden. Kept getting skin cancer. Went back to Sweden to get away from the sun and get some socialized medicine. 😋
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on May 22, 2017 22:11:07 GMT -5
And there are doctors who have fled the US to work in Canada. What's your point? My orthopedist is Canadian.....so is my husband. Both naturalized citizens. So what is your point? I know a LOT OF Canadians who are now US citizens who preferred the tax structure in the US.
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milee
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Post by milee on May 22, 2017 22:16:05 GMT -5
My orthopedist is Canadian.....so is my husband. Yeah, my husband is from one of the other socialist utopias - England. When people ask why he decided to move to the US he responds that the US has lower taxes, greater opportunity, much better healthcare and cute blonde women. (Although maybe he doesn't say that last bit when I'm not standing there because in all fairness England has its share of cute women, too.)
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on May 22, 2017 22:24:17 GMT -5
My orthopedist is Canadian.....so is my husband. Yeah, my husband is from one of the other socialist utopias - England. When people ask why he decided to move to the US he responds that the US has lower taxes, greater opportunity, much better healthcare and cute blonde women. (Although maybe he doesn't say that last bit when I'm not standing there because in all fairness England has its share of cute women, too.) Yep.....that's pretty much the reason my surgeon and DH came to the US too. My surgeon and DH are buds, and when I go to see him the conversation ultimately comes around to escaping Canada.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 22, 2017 22:28:25 GMT -5
My orthopedist is Canadian.....so is my husband. Yeah, my husband is from one of the other socialist utopias - England. When people ask why he decided to move to the US he responds that the US has lower taxes, greater opportunity, much better healthcare and cute blonde women. (Although maybe he doesn't say that last bit when I'm not standing there because in all fairness England has its share of cute women, too.) England isn't socialist. How I wish some of you knew what the meaning of socialist really is.
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dee27
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Post by dee27 on May 22, 2017 23:12:57 GMT -5
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 22, 2017 23:17:57 GMT -5
socialism [soh-shuh-liz-uh m] Spell Syllables Examples Word Origin See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com noun 1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole. 2. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory. 3. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles. www.dictionary.com/browse/socialismThose countries have elements of socialism, but so does the USA. They're not truly socialist countries.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 22, 2017 23:22:28 GMT -5
Canada really loves it's capitalism. Yes, we're a capitalist country as well.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 22, 2017 23:35:31 GMT -5
We like our mansions and fancy cars. And boats and private planes.
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on May 23, 2017 7:13:36 GMT -5
The countries you list have their own problems--growing income inequality in France, increasing limited access to higher education access in Germany, etc. The U.S. was founded on different premises than the countries you list. Our Puritan and colonial ancestors had a "work or starve" ethic. We haven't really lost that although we do have safety nets for those who truly need it. We have welfare, Medicaid (and Medicare for the elderly), subsidized housing, Earned Income Tax Credit for working families, Pell Grants and subsidized loans, etc. We have Head Start and strong Special Education laws that will spend thousands to provide a "free and appropriate" education to children with disabilities. What you want is basically socialized government paid for with really high taxes. You can see a fuller set of rankings hereI think first world countries are traditionally defined as developed countries with access to most of what you list. It doesn't have to be government-provided to qualify.
I have a niece that just graduated with a nursing degree that has $90,000 says she is $90,000 in debt. May include new car debt, but she has at least $60,000 in Student Loan debt and she had a good tuition scholarship. I have another niece who's fiancé had to co-sign for her Student loan debt b/c she already had $100,000 in debt. DS just graduated with $30,000 in student loan debt, and I have an additional $30,000+ for a parent plus loan. DD has student loans of at least $12,000 so far. My one SIL indicated she did not know how she will ever pay off the parent plus loans she has for her kids.
I agree that health care in the US is not first world. We are only one job loss or major illness away from disaster. I don't know what to think about paid maternity leave, b/c at 50+ DH and I have no disability insurance...if I am going to pay for young people to have maternity leave, why isn't someone providing me with disability coverage?
Count me in as thinking higher education in the US is becoming unaffordable. My Father in law needs insulin to control his diabetes, my MIL indicated on Friday that his Medicare Supplement is not covering the insulin again. We have to stop letting the robber barons loot the country.
I don't disagree that there are issues with health care and higher education in this country. But the issues you bring up are about funding for them. To say "I just graduated with a good degree and have to pay for it" is quite different than having no possibility of higher education. Everyone has access to public education. The US has one of the highest percentages of people going to college in the world. If you have college debt, the average amount is about the same as a nice new car. So maybe you don't get that nice new car right at first. Hopefully you have a good education and a good job. Health care issues are the same. It is about paying for healthcare, much less about the quality. Even uninsured can walk into an ER and get treated. Student loans and health insurance are first world issues.
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milee
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Post by milee on May 23, 2017 7:15:57 GMT -5
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milee
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Post by milee on May 23, 2017 7:35:02 GMT -5
How much the citizens of a country love capitalism, mansions, fancy cars, boats and private planes has nothing to do with whether the structure of their country's government and taxation system is capitalist. How I wish some of you knew what the meaning of capitalist really is.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 23, 2017 7:48:01 GMT -5
We were lucky enough to start a business in the late 80's and 90's. We couldn't do it now with the rules and regulations that are in place. Any country that stifles small businesses and entrepreneurs isn't a good country. If you choose to work so that others benefit so be it. If you choose not to but help others by employing them, so much the better. One is a handout. The other is a handup.
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