AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 27, 2017 9:21:59 GMT -5
Trump just accomplished something miraculous. He has begun the process of breaking up the "all-or-nothing caucus" - the lock-step "conservative" block in the GOP (and I used to be one) whose function in the grand scheme of things (which is why I am no longer one) is to serve as a foil for the RINOs, globalists / UniParty elites. They run on "principles" which then become their constant excuse for getting nothing done. Tell me the difference, in terms of accomplishments, between the freedom caucus and your run of the mill RINO? They stop nothing. They pass nothing. And when you finally realize IT IS EXACTLY WHY THEY EXIST, that's when you wake up. It is purposeful.
Let's take an issue that "principled conservatives" essentially all profess there should be no compromise on: Abortion. Now, let's ask a liberal how do you keep abortion on demand legal in all 50 states? Wouldn't be convenient if "principled conservatives" ran in conservative districts on a platform of no exceptions whatsoever for abortion- including no exceptions for rape and incest (let alone "legitimate rape"). And just for kicks, we'll add that we favor a "Pro Life Amendment to The Constitution"-- sooooo principled. What actually happens with this all-or-nothing approach? Nothing. Voters get to feel good about themselves- they're taking a principled stand-- but they fail to understand that a candidate who proposes a pro-life amendment to the Constitution has just conned them. That person, if elected, has essentially promised to do absolutely nothing to stop abortion because nothing that person promises can actually be accomplished. When a bill comes up to impose reasonable restrictions on abortion, but which would allow abortions up to 12 weeks of pregnancy-- our principled conservative friends can oppose the bill on principle because they "cannot in good conscience vote for a bill which allows abortions". In no compromise, there is no progress. But that is not the worst part of it. The worst part of it is that it is not a strategic error. The worst part is that they are NOT PRINCIPLED, but playing a ROLE- they're DOING THEIR PART TO STOP A REAL REFORM AGENDA- and they're doing it on all the key issues, under cover of "principle".
So, Trump is no longer part of the "far right" or "conservative" wing of the party- and trust me, his supporters DO NOT CARE, and many applaud this. This perfectly positions Trump to attack more blue states in 2020. But he did more....
Because the bill is the "RyanCare" bill-- it positions Paul Ryan as a weak and ineffective leader-- and clears a path for someone like Gowdy or Gomert to be Speaker. You'll note neither of these firebrand conservatives are members of the so-called "Freedom Caucus".
In the wake of this "catastrophic humiliating worst legislative failure in the history of the world" (the narrative on this is as entertaining as it is hyperbolic), I think Trump set it up. Is there any enemy of Trump that doesn't own this failure? The freedom caucus are marginalized, Paul Ryan looks like a failure, and the Democrats still have the ObamaCare albatross hanging around their necks- and if you dismiss the possibility that Trump orchestrated (or at least hoped for this) so that he could take credit for trying to keep a promise and tee'ing up a midterm election cycle that benefits him...well, you just haven't been paying attention.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 27, 2017 9:36:37 GMT -5
... tee'ing up a midterm election cycle that benefits him... ... And sense it is all about him ....
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Rob Base 2.0
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Post by Rob Base 2.0 on Mar 27, 2017 9:38:06 GMT -5
Once again a WAY long post no one will read
I did read about 4 lines though and will respond to that
If this was such a "great" plan, and it was "the plan" all along - why did it take you 72 hours to post it? Why do I suspect if the health care bill passed, that you would be explaining how great it was instead of this? Did it take u 72 hours for the Trump follower hive mind to tell u / explain to this "plan" to u after the fact?@
U would be more believable if u posted this late last week.
I hope this post is not too short for u
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Mar 27, 2017 9:43:03 GMT -5
Once again a WAY long post no one will read I did read about 4 lines though and will respond to that If this was such a "great" plan, and it was "the plan" all along - why did it take you 72 hours to post it? Why do I suspect if the health care bill passed, that you would be explaining how great it was instead of this? Did it take u 72 hours for the Trump follower hive mind to tell u / explain to this "plan" to u after the fact?@ U would be more believable if u posted this late last week. I hope this post is not too short for u I think paul is just practicing his persuasive skills here.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Mar 27, 2017 10:23:11 GMT -5
I think the explanation is more simple than that. The GOP took a bill, which was bad to begin with, negotiated with other members of the GOP (to get more votes), which made the bill even worse. The bill finally died because it was too horrible of a piece for anyone to vote for, even the GOP.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 27, 2017 10:25:52 GMT -5
Ah, so this is how it's going to be. Every time Trump fucks up, Paul will say it's a brilliant move, and done on purpose.
I broke my foot last May on purpose. I deliberately fell down the stairs and hurt myself. It was a brilliant move, dontcha know? It was all part of a Master Plan so I could get to sit at a concert.
Who's buying it?
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Mar 27, 2017 10:41:21 GMT -5
Well, Paul could be right, or, he could be wrong.
We will have to see what Trump and the Republicans do. My understanding is that Ryan is not necessarily vulnerable b/c there is not really very many candidates that ware willing/able to take the job that don't already have a really important position. They said that was why Devin Nunes has the position he does (House Intelligence Committee).
I have to agree with Paul, that it would make sense for the Republicans to make a second run at the health care bill. I hope their second version is better than the first though.
I actually thought they would get their bill through. I agree with Paul that it is not in the Freedom Caucuses' best interests to say NO and hold out for everything that they want, when what they get is some of what they want or none of what they want. I am glad they held out for everything they want, but can't believe that some smart negotiator can't explain the error of their ways to them. (I did not agree with the bill, I actually want them to fix the bill and find a way to make health care more affordable. I don't think they were even close to being on the right path).
I really think it is in the best interests of all Americans to get Congress working together to come up with a solution. The wants of the extreme factions in both parties should be neutralized.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Mar 27, 2017 10:43:07 GMT -5
Once again a WAY long post no one will read I did read about 4 lines though and will respond to that If this was such a "great" plan, and it was "the plan" all along - why did it take you 72 hours to post it? Why do I suspect if the health care bill passed, that you would be explaining how great it was instead of this? Did it take u 72 hours for the Trump follower hive mind to tell u / explain to this "plan" to u after the fact?@ U would be more believable if u posted this late last week. I hope this post is not too short for u I think paul is just practicing his persuasive skills here. Needs more practice.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Mar 27, 2017 10:52:46 GMT -5
To answer the ? posed by the OP.....no.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 27, 2017 10:57:58 GMT -5
Well, Paul could be right, or, he could be wrong.
We will have to see what Trump and the Republicans do. My understanding is that Ryan is not necessarily vulnerable b/c there is not really very many candidates that ware willing/able to take the job that don't already have a really important position. They said that was why Devin Nunes has the position he does (House Intelligence Committee).
I have to agree with Paul, that it would make sense for the Republicans to make a second run at the health care bill. I hope their second version is better than the first though.
I actually thought they would get their bill through. I agree with Paul that it is not in the Freedom Caucuses' best interests to say NO and hold out for everything that they want, when what they get is some of what they want or none of what they want. I am glad they held out for everything they want, but can't believe that some smart negotiator can't explain the error of their ways to them. (I did not agree with the bill, I actually want them to fix the bill and find a way to make health care more affordable. I don't think they were even close to being on the right path).
I really think it is in the best interests of all Americans to get Congress working together to come up with a solution. The wants of the extreme factions in both parties should be neutralized. I think the point of the Freedom Caucus is "It's my way or the highway."
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 27, 2017 11:03:46 GMT -5
I think it failed because the law was a piece of shit and the members of congress knew that if they voted for it, they would be voted out.
For the past 7 or so years the Republicans in Congress were only interested in blocking healthcare legislation and didn't propose any legislation. How many times did they vote to repeal Obamacare knowing that the vote would be vetoed? Did they ever present a viable alternative? No.
Now that they are in charge, they all can't get on the same page other than to say "Obamacare bad." They've had 7 years to come up with something.
And we all knew Trump was full of crap when he said, "I have a plan to replace Obamacare. You'll love it. Everyone will have coverage, and it will be cheaper." He's not a detail guy. He comes up with an idea and expects his minions to execute it. He's not used to his minions (congress) having their own agenda and other loyalties.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 27, 2017 11:55:36 GMT -5
Remember that it was President Donald J. Trump that said, (paraphrasing) that the smart political thing to do would be to let ObamaCare collapse on its own...
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 27, 2017 11:56:41 GMT -5
I think it failed because the law was a piece of shit and the members of congress knew that if they voted for it, they would be voted out.
For the past 7 or so years the Republicans in Congress were only interested in blocking healthcare legislation and didn't propose any legislation. How many times did they vote to repeal Obamacare knowing that the vote would be vetoed? Did they ever present a viable alternative? No.
Now that they are in charge, they all can't get on the same page other than to say "Obamacare bad." They've had 7 years to come up with something.
And we all knew Trump was full of crap when he said, "I have a plan to replace Obamacare. You'll love it. Everyone will have coverage, and it will be cheaper." He's not a detail guy. He comes up with an idea and expects his minions to execute it. He's not used to his minions (congress) having their own agenda and other loyalties. Which supports my theory that they never had any intention to repeal ObamaCare- and the "freedom caucus" played their role as the foil...
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 27, 2017 11:59:14 GMT -5
and trump never had a plan.
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Mar 27, 2017 12:06:26 GMT -5
Ah, so this is how it's going to be. Every time Trump fucks up, Paul will say it's a brilliant move, and done on purpose. I broke my foot last May on purpose. I deliberately fell down the stairs and hurt myself. It was a brilliant move, dontcha know? It was all part of a Master Plan so I could get to sit at a concert. Who's buying it? I got hip surgery so people would give up their seats on the el. Worked like a charm!
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toshmanta
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Post by toshmanta on Mar 27, 2017 12:10:12 GMT -5
Trump just accomplished something miraculous. He has begun the process of breaking up the "all-or-nothing caucus" - the lock-step "conservative" block in the GOP (and I used to be one) whose function in the grand scheme of things (which is why I am no longer one) is to serve as a foil for the RINOs, globalists / UniParty elites. They run on "principles" which then become their constant excuse for getting nothing done. Tell me the difference, in terms of accomplishments, between the freedom caucus and your run of the mill RINO? They stop nothing. They pass nothing. And when you finally realize IT IS EXACTLY WHY THEY EXIST, that's when you wake up. It is purposeful. Let's take an issue that "principled conservatives" essentially all profess there should be no compromise on: Abortion. Now, let's ask a liberal how do you keep abortion on demand legal in all 50 states? Wouldn't be convenient if "principled conservatives" ran in conservative districts on a platform of no exceptions whatsoever for abortion- including no exceptions for rape and incest (let alone "legitimate rape"). And just for kicks, we'll add that we favor a "Pro Life Amendment to The Constitution"-- sooooo principled. What actually happens with this all-or-nothing approach? Nothing. Voters get to feel good about themselves- they're taking a principled stand-- but they fail to understand that a candidate who proposes a pro-life amendment to the Constitution has just conned them. That person, if elected, has essentially promised to do absolutely nothing to stop abortion because nothing that person promises can actually be accomplished. When a bill comes up to impose reasonable restrictions on abortion, but which would allow abortions up to 12 weeks of pregnancy-- our principled conservative friends can oppose the bill on principle because they "cannot in good conscience vote for a bill which allows abortions". In no compromise, there is no progress. But that is not the worst part of it. The worst part of it is that it is not a strategic error. The worst part is that they are NOT PRINCIPLED, but playing a ROLE- they're DOING THEIR PART TO STOP A REAL REFORM AGENDA- and they're doing it on all the key issues, under cover of "principle". So, Trump is no longer part of the "far right" or "conservative" wing of the party- and trust me, his supporters DO NOT CARE, and many applaud this. This perfectly positions Trump to attack more blue states in 2020. But he did more.... Because the bill is the "RyanCare" bill-- it positions Paul Ryan as a weak and ineffective leader-- and clears a path for someone like Gowdy or Gomert to be Speaker. You'll note neither of these firebrand conservatives are members of the so-called "Freedom Caucus". In the wake of this "catastrophic humiliating worst legislative failure in the history of the world" (the narrative on this is as entertaining as it is hyperbolic), I think Trump set it up. Is there any enemy of Trump that doesn't own this failure? The freedom caucus are marginalized, Paul Ryan looks like a failure, and the Democrats still have the ObamaCare albatross hanging around their necks- and if you dismiss the possibility that Trump orchestrated (or at least hoped for this) so that he could take credit for trying to keep a promise and tee'ing up a midterm election cycle that benefits him...well, you just haven't been paying attention. I got as far as 'miraculous' then lost the will to live
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 27, 2017 12:14:44 GMT -5
Remember that it was President Donald J. Trump that said, (paraphrasing) that the smart political thing to do would be to let ObamaCare collapse on its own... I'm not sure I'm buying that this is the smart move. Letting something fail on purpose that helps lots of people isn't a good move politically. Especially when steps could be taken now to improve Obamacare. Let's say it goes the way Trump is hoping - premiums skyrocket, insurers pull out of counties across the country, do you think everyone forgets that Trump said he wants to let it crash & burn? And then what happens? They scrap the whole thing & everyone loses all the good parts along with the bad parts? How will the public react? They will scream to give back their subsidies and pre-existing conditions clause. It will bite Trump big time if it crashes and burns and he laughs because people will be hurting. The worse things get, the more likely we are going to be set up to go to universal care. I don't buy this was a big plan by Trump. The guy doesn't have that much strategy. He flies by the seat of his pants and tweets whatever BS enters his head.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 27, 2017 12:19:54 GMT -5
... A REAL REFORM AGENDA- ... Paul, I am interesting in you articulating what you envision as to what this new "form" will look like once this hoped for Trump reformation has taken place.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 27, 2017 12:35:33 GMT -5
It will be tremendous. The best. You'll love it.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 27, 2017 13:46:46 GMT -5
It will be tremendous. The best. You'll love it. And that is the part that I find a little scary. We hear this from President Trump, but there is no specifics. Healthcare is a great example. He has indicated that he has/could develop a great plan but then what actually happens is he doesn't display a great plan and what was proposed was not even voted on. AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP can offer that it is some necessary game but I can't believe that Congress could not be pressured to adopt a plan that was truly great for all or even most Americans. I support many policies that are labeled "liberal" in the current political climate but I am by nature a very conservative person in a non-political sense. I only support change if there is clear sense that it will be better than the status quo. I supported marriage equality because there no evidence that it will harm society and would create stability for same sex couples wishing to have a long term relationship. Tearing down the existing system without any sense of what is going to replace it does not appeal to me. I am not sure that we are not looking at replacing the deep state with an open dictatorship. If that is going to be the "form" that we "reform" into, I would prefer someone other than Donald J. Trump filling the role.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 27, 2017 13:51:04 GMT -5
Remember that it was President Donald J. Trump that said, (paraphrasing) that the smart political thing to do would be to let ObamaCare collapse on its own... Remember that it was Donald J. Trump that boasted "he'll replace it with something fantastic! Tremendous! You'll love it!" Now he suffered a crippling and humiliating defeat, but he did it on purpose. Sure. Is everyone tired of winning so much, yet? "We'll win so much, you'll be tired of winning! You'll say, please Mr. President, enough with the winning, already."
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Mar 27, 2017 14:10:38 GMT -5
I think it failed because the law was a piece of shit and the members of congress knew that if they voted for it, they would be voted out.
For the past 7 or so years the Republicans in Congress were only interested in blocking healthcare legislation and didn't propose any legislation. How many times did they vote to repeal Obamacare knowing that the vote would be vetoed? Did they ever present a viable alternative? No.
Now that they are in charge, they all can't get on the same page other than to say "Obamacare bad." They've had 7 years to come up with something.
And we all knew Trump was full of crap when he said, "I have a plan to replace Obamacare. You'll love it. Everyone will have coverage, and it will be cheaper." He's not a detail guy. He comes up with an idea and expects his minions to execute it. He's not used to his minions (congress) having their own agenda and other loyalties. I don't agree. Most people don't even follow the daily news. They don't want to know the details. People wanted health care they could afford. When Trump promised he could replace Obamacare, everyone will have coverage and it will be cheaper, many people in his base took him at his word. either took him at his word, or did not care how America was going to pay for it because they don't pay taxes. He also promised not to mess with SS and Medicare.
I think a lot of people voted Republican because they can not afford the high deductible plans, and they naively thought the Republicans were going to give them Affordable vs No healthcare.
I can't even begin to think what their budget will look like. How many votes do they need to pass the budget? Do they only need 50?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 27, 2017 14:14:44 GMT -5
Ah, so this is how it's going to be. Every time Trump fucks up, Paul will say it's a brilliant move, and done on purpose. I broke my foot last May on purpose. I deliberately fell down the stairs and hurt myself. It was a brilliant move, dontcha know? It was all part of a Master Plan so I could get to sit at a concert. Who's buying it? LOL! I will! I purposefully threw myself down my deck stairs recently. Broke both wrists and my arm in the process! It was yuge!!
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 27, 2017 14:18:38 GMT -5
To answer the ? posed by the OP.....no. Maybe a better title would have been "I'm going to explain ...". Asking if one shall do and giving the audience no chance to respond is usually non-productive. *Kiddin' ya, AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Mar 27, 2017 14:24:38 GMT -5
To answer the ? posed by the OP.....no. Maybe a better title would have been "I'm going to explain ...". Asking if one shall do and giving the audience no chance to respond is usually non-productive. That is one poll that WOULD make Trump's approval ratings look great in comparison.
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Mar 27, 2017 14:26:27 GMT -5
No need as others have already said! The bill sucks and regardless how heartless some republicans in Congress might be they are not about to commit political suicide. This was in fact another attempt at explaining to POTUS that he is not in charge unilaterally and this is not "The Aprentice"
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 27, 2017 14:30:23 GMT -5
To answer the ? posed by the OP.....no. Maybe a better title would have been "I'm going to explain ...". Asking if one shall do and giving the audience no chance to respond is usually non-productive. *Kiddin' ya, AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP . I'm pretty sure "No Funnin'" is in the CoC.
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ken a.k.a OMK
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Mar 27, 2017 14:30:48 GMT -5
I'm beginning to believe Trump can't make decisions on his own. At least not intelligent ones. He's depending on Ivanka and Bannon to tell him what to say and do. They haven't been able to stop the tweets where we see the real unstable Trump.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 27, 2017 14:33:32 GMT -5
Remember that it was President Donald J. Trump that said, (paraphrasing) that the smart political thing to do would be to let ObamaCare collapse on its own... I'm not sure I'm buying that this is the smart move. Letting something fail on purpose that helps lots of people isn't a good move politically. Especially when steps could be taken now to improve Obamacare. Let's say it goes the way Trump is hoping - premiums skyrocket, insurers pull out of counties across the country, do you think everyone forgets that Trump said he wants to let it crash & burn? And then what happens? They scrap the whole thing & everyone loses all the good parts along with the bad parts? How will the public react? They will scream to give back their subsidies and pre-existing conditions clause. It will bite Trump big time if it crashes and burns and he laughs because people will be hurting. The worse things get, the more likely we are going to be set up to go to universal care. I don't buy this was a big plan by Trump. The guy doesn't have that much strategy. He flies by the seat of his pants and tweets whatever BS enters his head. If that's what you think, you either have not been paying attention; or you've paid selective attention to opinions about Trump that have little to do with actual events. The one over-arching opinion that should clue you in to the fact that Trump had a plan all along is the opinion that we're not supposed to be here right now. Trump wasn't supposed to run, he wasn't supposed to get the nomination, and he wasn't supposed to win the election. So, say what you will about policy. Disagree with Trump all you want. But for your side's sake especially- do not underestimate Trump.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 27, 2017 14:34:08 GMT -5
I'm beginning to believe Trump can't make decisions on his own. At least not intelligent ones. He's depending on Ivanka and Bannon to tell him what to say and do. They haven't been able to stop the tweets where we see the real unstable Trump. See my last post. This is a baseless opinion.
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