Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Dec 15, 2016 12:34:21 GMT -5
And if an employer did take a chance - what if a coworker, unknowingly - invites that person to their home when they have other coworker friends over? Is the employer obligated to inform everyone so that they don't make these errors?
That's a very good point. My co-workers and I don't socialize in one another's home - only out in public places - but what if I was having a Christmas Party and invited everyone to my home? I suppose that happens now and we don't know unless something bad occurs.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Dec 15, 2016 12:37:02 GMT -5
Guys this thread needs to get back on topic and stay there. This is a good topic and should be something that is discussed here.
If anyone wants to take up their beefs about moderation they are welcome to in the "I have a Beef with the Admin" thread. This is not the place for that.
973beachbum
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Dec 15, 2016 12:40:06 GMT -5
But, back on topic, I know of a sex offender, it involved touching 12 year old. He did his jail time, he registers as required.
When he got caught, he was fired from his state job that required him to have a clean criminal record, and he deserved it. However, now he has problems finding employment. He's a good worker, responsible, etc, but I would not leave him alone with kids. He's since got his CDL, and gets sporadic work driving trucks, but he still has problems getting/keeping employment. Honestly, he doesn't disclose the conviction unless they ask because he knows he won't get hired.
He managed to get a job with a company painting the stripes on the runway. No complaints about his work, was actually told he was a good worker. They found out about his felony conviction and fired him. There is no way he will come into contact with teen girls at work.
Shouldn't we allow this guy to work if he's good at his job, shows up on time, does what is requested of him, is not a discipline problem, and there is no chance of coming into contact with a 12 year old girl at work? Yes, but the problem is *that* instance it was a 12 year old girl. Honestly, I believe that these things escalate. I think it's rare that some person says "Geeze, I just realized I find young kids attractive. I'm going to do something about it right now!" I also believe there are underlying issues for SOME people that chose to behave this way. And, if those underlying reasons are never dealt with....then, yes, that person is a huge liability. My problem is that this isn't enough of the story to make a decision, as an employer, as to whether or not he poses a risk to his employer. I'm not foolish enough to think that this guy received whatever help he needed to change his behaviors so as to not act out on his thoughts... It means the dude sat in jail...nothing more, nothing less. On the other end of the coin, I've been talking to my DS about the consequences of a felony on his record since he was 10.5 and he got a prepaid cell phone. Of course we didn't talk about child molestation. But, I started the discussion of sexting, child porn possession, and what happens if one is convicted of such things. At 12, we've start the talk about ramifications of having sex with a younger person. My state has NO Romeo and Juliet Law. DS understand that he will be largely unemployable if he gets a felony record. He also knows what will happen if he impregnates a girl while in high school...(though no jail time for that..) I feel like I'm doing my part to educate him so he understands what the consequences are of his behavior. It's still up to him to choose his own behavior...and to deal with the consequences of his choices. I'm not in a position to change the world for him so that he has an easier time of it when he does something really, really dumb. The only thing I can do is tell him how the world operates, for better or worse.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Dec 15, 2016 12:48:11 GMT -5
How do you know he's capable of performing the job? That this guy poses a minimal risk to Miss T's company? You know him personally? Know for sure that with jail time came some treatment or behavior modification? Are you a trained therapist, an expert in this field that can get to know him, and offer your expert assessment to Miss T? See, the problem is that no one really knows the situation. And you can't ask, either during a job interview. If this guy is "bright" and wanted the job badly enough, he should have gone on the offensive about his background. If I was hiring a "bright" person to work on computers all day, I'd feel much better if said person came to me saying "Look, this is what I was convicted for in the past. I won't be using your work computer for child porn or solicitation of underage kids because...." That shows a lot better character than "I'm innocent." Miss T. says in the OP that he was more than qualified and that he was the best applicant for the job. She was more than happy to get him. No doubt he's going from job to job, desperately looking for work, hoping to find somebody who doesn't hate him, and now he's back on the street again. And we tolerate this in our society. Because of fear and bigotry. And you're deluding yourself if you think your "being proactive" solution would work. Not only would he have not landed the job, he'd have to endure one more Miss T. calling him a pervert to his face.Actually I would not have done that. I would have recoiled inside and wanted him out of my office as soon as possible but I would never put my company at risk of a lawsuit by calling him anything. I come here and vent and even bitched at the recruiter (who was just as appalled as I was) for sending someone like that to me, but face-to-face with that disgusting pervert, I would not have said a word.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Dec 15, 2016 12:51:58 GMT -5
Had the guy spent 7 years in jail for something other than a sex offense he would still have a hard time finding a job. Most companies don't want convicted felons working for them. that right here is very true. This position is a low level clerk position but also a position where the person could potentially find a way to circumvent controls and send themselves large sums of money. Therefore, we would not have hired him no matter what he had done. The fact that I'm repulsed by the crime he committed has nothing to do with anything. Any felon (assuming it showed up on his background check) would have been out
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Dec 15, 2016 12:56:42 GMT -5
What if a mod isn't a "good fit"? What if one of the people charged with ensuring the COC is enforced regularly flouts COC rules about "trolling"? The whole reason we have the COC and we so vigorously enforce it and need rules about trolling is to protect people from oh, wait, ... if it's the mods doing the trolling, uh, um, I guess we um don't need to worry about all those silly rules and stuff. All you silly chickens just settle down, Mr Fox is here to make sure people behave. I'm trying to elicit a counterargument that isn't a blatant cop-out or logical fallacy. That constitutes trolling now? But I've made my point. I think I've disturbed the sound of silence enough for one day. I'll leave you all to your ideological vacuum, as usual. No you aren't. There is no counterargument to harming a child. It makes it look like you are ok with molesting children. Unless you like looking like a sick fuck. A 4 year old can't even remotely give consent so for you to even try to equate molesting that baby to consenting homosexual acts is absolutely ludicrous...and keep in mind, I'm a staunch conservative who doesn't want men in my bathroom and even I think you are making absolutely no sense in this thread.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 15, 2016 12:58:39 GMT -5
Unfortunately these people are mentally ill and there is no cure. A lot of them don't even feel what they're doing is wrong. I've always been of the opinion since they can't be euthanized that using Alcatraz as more than a tourist attraction is an idea. Put them there. They won't be harmed by other prisoners like in a regular prison but they are away from children, period.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Dec 15, 2016 13:16:31 GMT -5
But, back on topic, I know of a sex offender, it involved touching 12 year old. He did his jail time, he registers as required.
When he got caught, he was fired from his state job that required him to have a clean criminal record, and he deserved it. However, now he has problems finding employment. He's a good worker, responsible, etc, but I would not leave him alone with kids. He's since got his CDL, and gets sporadic work driving trucks, but he still has problems getting/keeping employment. Honestly, he doesn't disclose the conviction unless they ask because he knows he won't get hired.
He managed to get a job with a company painting the stripes on the runway. No complaints about his work, was actually told he was a good worker. They found out about his felony conviction and fired him. There is no way he will come into contact with teen girls at work.
Shouldn't we allow this guy to work if he's good at his job, shows up on time, does what is requested of him, is not a discipline problem, and there is no chance of coming into contact with a 12 year old girl at work? I do understand what you are saying and I might be irrational in my thought process. I could not work with a child molester. While my company is large, the finance department is small and we need to work closely with each other. I couldn't do it. And word gets out (let's be honest, we all google people!) I would have a mutiny on my hands. I couldn't sit there and make chit-chat with this guy. I couldn't go out to dinners with this guy. I wouldn't be able to look at him without wanting to seriously hurt him.
Luckily for me it isn't an issue because we can't have a convicted felon in Finance....but to be honest, it shook me to the core. I interviewed him twice and holy shit he seemed so normal and nice.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Dec 15, 2016 13:39:16 GMT -5
I'm trying to elicit a counterargument that isn't a blatant cop-out or logical fallacy. That constitutes trolling now? But I've made my point. I think I've disturbed the sound of silence enough for one day. I'll leave you all to your ideological vacuum, as usual. No you aren't. There is no counterargument to harming a child. It makes it look like you are ok with molesting children. However, beyond our unanimous rejection of pedophiles as needing protected status, I'm doumbfounded that Virgil thought he was proffering a real argument worthy of engagement.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Dec 15, 2016 14:03:14 GMT -5
I just want it noted that for once, you all are actually agreeing with me on something...no wonder it is so f'n cold out...Hell just froze over
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Dec 15, 2016 14:05:03 GMT -5
I just want it noted that for once, you all are actually agreeing with me on something...no wonder it is so f'n cold out...Hell just froze over Au contraire! You agreed with us.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Dec 15, 2016 14:23:51 GMT -5
I just want it noted that for once, you all are actually agreeing with me on something...no wonder it is so f'n cold out...Hell just froze over Au contraire! You agreed with us. lol
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finnime
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Post by finnime on Dec 15, 2016 17:20:48 GMT -5
In swamp 's camp on this one. I don't believe in the death penalty, nor in most cases - except for people like Dylan Roof or Tim McVeigh - in life without parole. And I do believe people can be rehabilitated. Some need treatment, and should get that, too. If someone has done their time or whatever, and they're capable and not presented with situations wherein they could re-commit their crime(s), then they should be permitted to do that with the dignity owed another human. So embezzlers should not work with money, fraudsters with contracts, murderers with people?, sex offenders with whatever they offended. And they should be monitored for some period of time. I don't agree that we have a great or fair justice system. That's a lot of my difficulty here. People with money, and not of color, are highly unlikely to end up in prison no matter what they do. Poor black men are much more likely, for minor offenses. Not okay, not fair. People posting seem prepared to continue shunning felons long after they're done. And maybe that would be okay if it were not for the unwillingness to hear someone's story: too much drama, too much energy, whatever. Bottom line, I'm glad I'm not on a list for underage sex. And I'm not black or male or poor.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 15, 2016 17:37:38 GMT -5
If you know what you're doing is wrong, don't do it. I had a dream about rape. That doesn't mean I want to be raped. Damn drugs.
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Bob Ross
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Post by Bob Ross on Jan 4, 2017 17:43:15 GMT -5
*sigh*
You shouldn't touch kids because Jesus. There.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 4, 2017 18:22:04 GMT -5
These people are mentally ill and I don't think they can be cured. The best thing for them is to be removed from society and put someplace where they cannot access others. Their own society, so to speak. We can't fix them, we can't kill them, but we cannot allow them to be among people who cannot defend themselves from predators. I'm not talking the Romeo and Juliet thing but true child molesters/pedophiles.
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jan 4, 2017 18:53:28 GMT -5
I don't care how mentally ill someone is. If their mental illness harms someone else such as molesting a child who cannot consent and they act on their obsessions they belong in jail or in a mental home because what they did was destroy a child. What they did can cause nightmares, can cause this child their own mental illness, causes a child to be terrified and have trust issues.
There's a difference between a "mentally ill" person that is acting on an "obsession" with another person with the same "mental illness" that acts on that "obsession" and they're two legal adults and it doesn't lead them to having nightmares over their consented sexual endeavors.
--
Personally, I feel that if someone molests a child they belong in jail or a mental institute. They just ruined that child's life. They just gave that child nightmares.
Honestly, I don't care if THEY can be cured and they molested a child. I don't think this is something that should ever be forgiven because the moment you let them into society they could molest another child. There's people out there that kill others because they do suffer from a mental illness but they're not let free because this mental illness could actually cause another person to be severely hurt.
I don't believe they should have the opportunity to go to work, make a living, be in the real world because they destroyed someone else's life. Jail time probably isn't even enough for what that child is now going to have to deal with for the rest of their lives...
-- I guess i'm just not someone that could ever be okay letting a rapist or a murderer be set free... I think those are the two worst things in this world to be. A killer and a Rapist. And when it happens to a child it's even worse... :/
-- BUT I do think it's WAY too easy to be put on a sexual offender list and that bothers me. It can destroy someone's life and all they did was pee outside... sure... it wasn't okay..but I don't think it's fair that they're placed with someone that just molested a child...
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jan 4, 2017 18:56:51 GMT -5
When it comes to other crimes though I'm quite forgiving and think people deserve a second chance. But not rapist and murderers.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jan 4, 2017 19:07:30 GMT -5
Guys this thread needs to get back on topic and stay there. This is a good topic and should be something that is discussed here. If anyone wants to take up their beefs about moderation they are welcome to in the "I have a Beef with the Admin" thread. This is not the place for that. 973beachbum moderator Hey! When did you become a moderator or have you always been one?? Am I that oblivious
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jan 4, 2017 19:48:35 GMT -5
Guys this thread needs to get back on topic and stay there. This is a good topic and should be something that is discussed here. If anyone wants to take up their beefs about moderation they are welcome to in the "I have a Beef with the Admin" thread. This is not the place for that. 973beachbum moderator Hey! When did you become a moderator or have you always been one?? Am I that oblivious Do you really want me to answer that? But for the record over two years.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jan 4, 2017 21:09:09 GMT -5
holy crap 973beachbum - yeah.....don't answer that.....
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 4, 2017 22:19:43 GMT -5
I don't care how mentally ill someone is. If their mental illness harms someone else such as molesting a child who cannot consent and they act on their obsessions they belong in jail or in a mental home because what they did was destroy a child. What they did can cause nightmares, can cause this child their own mental illness, causes a child to be terrified and have trust issues. There's a difference between a "mentally ill" person that is acting on an "obsession" with another person with the same "mental illness" that acts on that "obsession" and they're two legal adults and it doesn't lead them to having nightmares over their consented sexual endeavors. -- Personally, I feel that if someone molests a child they belong in jail or a mental institute. They just ruined that child's life. They just gave that child nightmares. Honestly, I don't care if THEY can be cured and they molested a child. I don't think this is something that should ever be forgiven because the moment you let them into society they could molest another child. There's people out there that kill others because they do suffer from a mental illness but they're not let free because this mental illness could actually cause another person to be severely hurt. I don't believe they should have the opportunity to go to work, make a living, be in the real world because they destroyed someone else's life. Jail time probably isn't even enough for what that child is now going to have to deal with for the rest of their lives... -- I guess i'm just not someone that could ever be okay letting a rapist or a murderer be set free... I think those are the two worst things in this world to be. A killer and a Rapist. And when it happens to a child it's even worse... :/ -- BUT I do think it's WAY too easy to be put on a sexual offender list and that bothers me. It can destroy someone's life and all they did was pee outside... sure... it wasn't okay..but I don't think it's fair that they're placed with someone that just molested a child... They flat out admit they can't be cured but it is a mental illness. One that we are not able to treat at this time. They need to be treated like the lepers of old. Put away with people like themselves, maybe in one prison somewhere. Obviously they'll be safe from other prisoners because they're all guilty of the same crime. Rapists do rape again and murderers, well, the degree varies. But, we have decided that those "crimes" and criminals deserve a chance to do it again. I draw the line at child molesters. They cannot help themselves and they cannot stop. To me that's no different than allowing someone with a communicable disease to infect others.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2017 12:58:54 GMT -5
Guys this thread needs to get back on topic and stay there. This is a good topic and should be something that is discussed here. If anyone wants to take up their beefs about moderation they are welcome to in the "I have a Beef with the Admin" thread. This is not the place for that. 973beachbum moderator Hey! When did you become a moderator or have you always been one?? Am I that oblivious That makes 2 of us. I had no idea either!
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jan 5, 2017 14:55:56 GMT -5
Is it true these people can't change? I don't know how I feel about branding them for life. On the other hand I don't want them to have the opportunity to do it again. I don't care how much someone claims to have changed and won't commit pedophilia again. I am not risking my child's safety. If that person wants to work a job that does not involve contact with minors than more power to them. If I find out the daycare hired a known sex offender my kid is being pulled the next day. It's not worth it. To be fair, the op's job didn't sound like it involved contact with kids.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jan 5, 2017 15:04:22 GMT -5
I'm not sure about branding people for life like that. Obviously he needs to be barred from any job where there's contact with kids and other vulnerable populations.
But I think it's ok to hire them for other jobs.
Perhaps they can't change. But I don't care if they're attracted to kids as long as they don't act on it or obtain material that exploits kids.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 5, 2017 15:18:28 GMT -5
I don't care how mentally ill someone is. If their mental illness harms someone else such as molesting a child who cannot consent and they act on their obsessions they belong in jail or in a mental home because what they did was destroy a child. What they did can cause nightmares, can cause this child their own mental illness, causes a child to be terrified and have trust issues. There's a difference between a "mentally ill" person that is acting on an "obsession" with another person with the same "mental illness" that acts on that "obsession" and they're two legal adults and it doesn't lead them to having nightmares over their consented sexual endeavors. -- Personally, I feel that if someone molests a child they belong in jail or a mental institute. They just ruined that child's life. They just gave that child nightmares. Honestly, I don't care if THEY can be cured and they molested a child. I don't think this is something that should ever be forgiven because the moment you let them into society they could molest another child. There's people out there that kill others because they do suffer from a mental illness but they're not let free because this mental illness could actually cause another person to be severely hurt. I don't believe they should have the opportunity to go to work, make a living, be in the real world because they destroyed someone else's life. Jail time probably isn't even enough for what that child is now going to have to deal with for the rest of their lives... -- I guess i'm just not someone that could ever be okay letting a rapist or a murderer be set free... I think those are the two worst things in this world to be. A killer and a Rapist. And when it happens to a child it's even worse... :/ -- BUT I do think it's WAY too easy to be put on a sexual offender list and that bothers me. It can destroy someone's life and all they did was pee outside... sure... it wasn't okay..but I don't think it's fair that they're placed with someone that just molested a child... I could have written this myself. I agree 100%. It's almost like the world's lost their damn minds when it comes to sex crimes. We either don't punish the ones that should be punished appropriately or we ruin the lives of the people who really don't deserve the sex crime label* I wrestle with the sex offender registry. My knee jerk reaction is that it is a good thing. But then I remember that it's only for those we know about. The other thing is nothing is perfect and once you get on those types of lists it can be almost impossible to get off. Unless it can be made foolproof, which no system created by humans ever will be, then it's not a good idea to be keeping these types of lists.
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jan 5, 2017 15:55:49 GMT -5
I'm not sure about branding people for life like that. Obviously he needs to be barred from any job where there's contact with kids and other vulnerable populations. But I think it's ok to hire them for other jobs. Perhaps they can't change. But I don't care if they're attracted to kids as long as they don't act on it or obtain material that exploits kids. This person was on a sex offender list because they molested a five year old. They're branded forever after actually obtaining child porn or acting on it. If they hadn't they'd never be caught and have their secret kept unless they talked to a therapist but by law a therapist can't go destroying their lives telling everyone this person is attracted to children. It's acting on it that gets them branded..not just having the thoughts. I understand their thoughts can't be controlled. But, their actions, their actions can be and if they can't and they know this... they ALWAYS know it's not okay to molest a child they need to go to a clinic until they can get their actions in order so they don't hurt a child. Furthermore, a lot of cases where children are killed are by people that deal with these thoughts and because they're ashamed or scared the child will tell on them...they kill them. I do think they should be branded for life and kept in jail forever if they molest a child. No amount of jail time honestly takes away what they did. That child has a long road to recover which includes nightmares, they are literally haunted their ENTIRE lives and it can trail into their adult lives. It can make it so this person can't trust anyone or have a normal functioning relationship. They have to fear every new person they meet and even old people in fear that any person could hurt them like this. This child can suffer wed betting, eating problem, sleep disturbances, have anxiety attacks, be paranoid constantly, these list just go on and on. If someone molest a child they shouldn't be allowed to walk the streets, run the risk of being around children because children are everywhere. Even in an office job setting it doesn't mean a child won't appear. A parent may bring their child to office parties, or bring them to work because of an emergency, they may invite the predator to their home unknowing that this person was a predator. The man from subway... he had children, he had a wife and they did things with other families. Subway knew this and still let him be around children... Jail in my opinion isn't even enough to take away how this child will suffer. This is not a crime that should be forgiven. This world is becoming way to forgiving for sex crimes. Even rape cases... Three months in jail while that girl will live her life in fear...the rest of her life. I don't care how a child molester or rapist feels after they did something like that... I don't care how it ruined their life for getting a job... they did much more to that child or that person they raped then just causing them to lose a job. How much are a child's nightmares worth? How much are a child's fears worth? How much are a child's emotional and physical damages worth? To me. Someone that can do that to a person... they don't deserve a chance to have a normal life because they destroyed the person that child, they took that child's childhood away from them. You molested a child and took away their childhood, and scar'd them for life... And what? You get to go back to trying to live a normal life after 5-25 years in jail. I'm aware it depends on states. "Well, it's going to be hard for them to find work!" so? They did so much more to that child then just the struggle to find work. -- I'm all about second chances when it comes to crimes that have not emotionally and physically destroyed someone else's life. If someone kills someone because of self-defense I'm all about forgiveness, but if someone just killed someone to kill someone I in NO way believe they should ever walk free and I have the same views with a child molester.
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jan 5, 2017 16:01:26 GMT -5
I honestly think the sex registry list is a good thing but it's brought about in a bad way because it also doesn't always say why they're on the list.
I hate that someone that had a drunken night and peed in the road is placed on their with child molesters. I just think that list should be used for people that actually did an illegal sex act.
Sure, it's stupid to undress in public, streak, pee in public but it's crazy that they're life is placed side by side to someone that molested a child or raped someone. I do believe people that got drunk and peed in public deserve a second chance because maybe they were an alcoholic that got sober or being a stupid kid. I don't think it's fair their life gets destroyed and a lot of times people will see "Sex Offender" and assume rape or that they did something with a child.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 5, 2017 16:53:42 GMT -5
The problem is that if you make it so they can't live any semblance of a normal life they go underground. Do you want to know where the registered sex offender is or do you want to take the chance he's hanging out in the school parking lot during the day because he has no where else to go?
That is the question a lot of places are wrestling with. Here the restrictions on where they can live make it so most end up homeless. Once they have no physical address there is no way to track them via the registry or any other fashion. That leaves them plenty of time to troll public parks and the school parking lot.
It makes us feel good to make life as difficult as possible for a sex offender but that does not solve the problem. It creates a new bigger problem.
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finnime
Junior Associate
Be kind. Everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.
Joined: Dec 23, 2010 7:14:35 GMT -5
Posts: 8,022
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Post by finnime on Jan 5, 2017 17:03:21 GMT -5
So there's a 40% chance that a sex offender will be caught again.... note that I didn't say would commit another sex crime. I think that's too high of a chance for serious offenses. Uhm, this text says that the sexual crime recidivism rate is 13.7 percent, not almost 40% - the larger group were all crimes/criminals. Actually, that's kind of interesting. Sex offenders are less likely than others to do it again, it appears.
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