steff
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Post by steff on Dec 1, 2016 14:06:32 GMT -5
Trump didn't get them to stay. The governor gave them state tax incentives. Indiana citizens get the honor of paying Carrier $700,000 a year and only 1,100 jobs went to Mexico. So the ransom was paid and only half the hostages were killed. It's a WIN!
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countrygirl
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Post by countrygirl on Dec 1, 2016 15:17:19 GMT -5
In my Free Market World, 'wealth inequality' is the prime catalyst - entrepreneurs invest their capital into commercial enterprises - ie, build factories, buy production machinery, buy trucks, buy components, buy materials, hire 1000's of workers - and spread commerce thru-out the community to the support/service functions - streets, infrastructure, restaurants, stores, yada.
You are correct but its not that way now. The entrepreneurs are not investing here or bringing their earnings back, the only answer the repubs have is cut taxes for the rich and they will but they don't. So we are starving a system that can't survive, its borrow for as long as possible till it implodes if something isn't done. That to a certain extent is happening now. This countrys populace is getting poorer and its going to continue if it continues in this vane. The money they make from us is not being reinvested here.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Dec 1, 2016 15:53:37 GMT -5
countrygirl sounds so familiar. Are you a new "old member"?
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Dec 1, 2016 15:55:51 GMT -5
Is it PatStabelist?
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Dec 1, 2016 16:05:56 GMT -5
Trump is the man! He thanked the employee who publicly stated that Trump said he would stop Carrier from moving. Trump at the time, asked, "did I say that?"
So I guess Trump decided it was up to him make it happen!
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Dec 1, 2016 16:51:28 GMT -5
So this is my conflicted liberal/YMer showing. On the one hand I am happy that (in the grand scale of things) a, relatively small, number of people will be able to keep their job. But I have yet to see a cost analysis. One that compares the cost of keeping these jobs (and future jobs that will undoubtedly be affected by this) in Indiana vs the cost of letting these jobs go and developing a new, sustainable labor market. Even if that means that there will be a period of hardship in the near future. We already provide corporate welfare in the form of aid for workers who, even with two workers, don't earn enough to make it without help. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif) what can I say, I 'fessed up to being liberal! And here we go again:lowering corporate taxes by a whopping 20%, pay incentives to stay in one place, and increase the wealth inequality in one of the richest countries of the world. And if you don't believe that last statement look up the Gini index published by that liberal hotbed the CIA. There are developing countries that put us to shame. So before I celebrate this "win" you need to first prove to me that it actually is one and not just another ploy of shovelling money upwards hidden behind great looking headlines. Ok, fair enough. Let's look at it from the other side. Carrier moves ops to a different country... 1000 people lose their jobs. Are there 1000 jobs vacant ready to be filled by these workers (probably not). So now we are paying UE x 1000, job retraining x 1000, medicaid x 1000, etc. Now lets talk about the lost discretionary income what is the short, mid, and long term effects there? So instead of a tax break for carrier we are now paying out all of the benefits above for those 1000 ex employees plus the tangentially related employees of other businesses that support or benefit from the carrier employees or company. The gov't is also out the tax revenue from those employees who are assumed to be happy middle class tax payers. I fail to see how not giving the incentive to stay helps anyone. Your scenario sounds like cutting a nose off to spite the face. And when the company moves out of Indiana, the state gets $0 in tax revenue vs. a 7 million (or whatever) tax break.
I agree, it would be interesting to see a total cost estimate for both scenarios, but my instinct is the long term cost for the state and taxpayers is it's better to give tax incentives up front than lose the added tax revenue and have additional costs of 1000 people.
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Blonde Granny
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Post by Blonde Granny on Dec 1, 2016 17:11:10 GMT -5
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Dec 1, 2016 17:48:19 GMT -5
In my Free Market World, 'wealth inequality' is the prime catalyst - entrepreneurs invest their capital into commercial enterprises - ie, build factories, buy production machinery, buy trucks, buy components, buy materials, hire 1000's of workers - and spread commerce thru-out the community to the support/service functions - streets, infrastructure, restaurants, stores, yada.
You are correct but its not that way now. The entrepreneurs are not investing here or bringing their earnings back, the only answer the repubs have is cut taxes for the rich and they will but they don't. So we are starving a system that can't survive, its borrow for as long as possible till it implodes if something isn't done. That to a certain extent is happening now. This countrys populace is getting poorer and its going to continue if it continues in this vane. The money they make from us is not being reinvested here. So what have the democrats done? I generally vote Dem and IMO they haven't done much. In all honesty, I don't think either side has done diddly squat to really help the middle class. I do stand behind Obama's improvement to the economy but it doesn't seem to me that either side has any real answers to improving middle class wages. I don't think paying the fry cook $15 an hour is the answer but I don't really buy into the repub's trickle down economic theory either, mainly because of what pat said... It isn't trickling down... Obviously, I have no answers just opinions
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 1, 2016 18:43:47 GMT -5
Obama is the sitting president and has been for the past 8 years. What is HE doing (or done) to retain jobs? Well, let's see. Unemployment rate was almost at 10% when he took office, and now it's down to 4.5%. Bailed out the auto industry, saving 1.5 MILLION jobs. They paid all the money back. Need more?
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dezailoooooo
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Post by dezailoooooo on Dec 1, 2016 18:53:38 GMT -5
Well he did rescue the economy from the greatest disaster since the Great Depression. last Quarter GDP growth has just been revised up to over 3%. And I agree that we didn't succumb to the disaster. I'm not sure that I give Obama all of the credit but some.
But if you look at middle income people, their earning power has declined with Obama. Jobs are being lost and replaced with lower paying jobs, health insurance premiums are going through the roof, etc. Those people and their issues are not being addressed by Obama or the left...We need to curtail the flow of jobs out of our country.
Just some? One has to have a short memory if one forgets that even though we were on the precipist of falling into the abyss of a real depression..the closing of plants, the disintigration of one of our most important industries..world wide..auto industry..GM going into receivership and possible bankruptcy..being sold off and even still the opposition from one side because someone insisted we do something..that one being Obama...and when he wanted to do even more that side closed him down..no cooperation at all.. Hey it was nice the President elect worked a deak so 100 jobs, families are saved but over all..big picture in comparison with...not quite the same but to ask one to remember, guess it is asking a lot...
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Dec 1, 2016 19:02:46 GMT -5
Capitalism isn't about the betterment of ALL citizens... just some of them. Which is generally OK, because usually capitalism inadvertently makes life better for ALL Citizens - it's just not equally dispersed betterment. You should note that I said the purpose of this " country" is for the betterment of it's own citizens. (As in a reference against a tariff move against globalism.) Please read my posts. I did read it. I wasn't very clear at making the point that there's a certain amount of tension between "Capitalism" and how we'd like our government to treat it's people (ie the purpose of America being the betterment of it's citizens). Two sides at odds with each other perhaps that can make each other function 'better'. That's why we have the wonderful political situations that we do.
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dezailoooooo
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Post by dezailoooooo on Dec 1, 2016 19:15:00 GMT -5
If anyone was watching the assembly line at carrier while the President elect was there..there was a young girl assemblying a AC..looked like one for the home and she was doing something I was familier with even almost 60 years from when I did a similer job..called bench work...lucky to get a summer job at a clean industry plant, Eastern Industries, Hamden Ct. ..asemblying something I believe for the Air Force..no idea of what it was..remember small screws, running some liquid oil product through it and it was repetitiouse and the money was very good, say $7/8 per hour or such when min wage was a couple bucks...but skilled work it wasn't though the workers who were there full time for the year were content..
If they are paying in the range of $20 per hour for this type of work...no wonder Carrier was looking to move the plant south / Mexico..I really don't know what the answer is..how we can be competitive on these type of jobs..They are well paid here, to well paid, possible because of the Union but hi tech they are not. Put tariffs on goods brought into the States? Thats been done before..then the other country does the same and our products are to high...Granted prices on Amazon for folks like me who use it are low..same for those who go into stores, malls to purchase..A four slice toaster I just purchased on line for $31 probably would cost $45 if tariffs were on it..Possible I wouldn't have purchased..purchased a two slice, cheaper model or just continued to use my toaster oven that doesn't toast dark enough for me..
As I said..I really don't have a answer on how to solve this wage problem..job problem, especially in the heartland where all those towns with no indusries to speak of are located..
Any one here have a answer..love to hear your solutions..
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Dec 1, 2016 19:16:57 GMT -5
oooo I can answer this! I live in the land of "tax breaks for businesses!". My local politicians are always giving away tax breaks or re-zoning property or whatever!
When a politician gives a company a tax break - it usually benefits the OWNERS of the business. It doesn't gaurentee that the business will stay in place or even in business. My city gave a local car dealership 3 million in tax incentives over 18 months - to "keep the dealership from moving to another suburb"... My city also ponied up a low interest low 500,000 loan so the dealership could 'improve' the property (they basically cut down weeds and repaired a fence the main building which was falling into decay stayed the same). 18 months into the not paying taxes AND having used up the 500K loan (it's apparently expensive to have a service come out and whack the weeds) the dealership went out of business and closed their doors - all the jobs were lost and the property was abandoned. I realize the 3 million in tax incentives was kind of "smoke like" but the 500K loan was gone.
Then there's the ever popular tactic of helping some dreamer entrepreneur open up their dream "Ice cream shop" - the city gives them a tax incentive AND a new business loan to fix up a property. It's pretty cool how the entrepreneur is a relative of one of the politicians and how all the "fix up" of the property is done thru "fix up" businesses owned by other relatives of said politicians. There may be some staged photos of the 'grand opening' of said shop - but the shop never opens - or if it does - it's usually closed down with in a year. Rinse and Repeat - in another "empty" store front. The politician gets the "I helped bring business to our city!" AND the pols family gets much of the $$ given by the City to get the small business on it's feet.
And, last but not least, there's when the local politicians manage to do some fancy financial wizardry with vacant lots that get sold for progressively higher prices - until the final buyer/company declares bankruptcy - there's tax incentives and loans involved with that too.
There's LOTS of ways for politicians (and the associated nepotism) to benefit/profit from giving businesses tax incentives and such... all at the tax payers expense.
At least with unemployment taxes - it's actually helpful to everyday people. I'm not sure how giving tax incentives to businesses that go out of business (or cut employees) is helpful... other than to the owners of the business.
Great semantics. Do you have a projected or actual percentage of success/failures in all businesses that would receive in an across the board favorable tax climate. Or does cherry picking a couple of situations that didn't work reflect the whole as presented in your post (Think 535 million tax loss Solyndra) This is somewhat a narrow view without considering the long term effects. What happens when the duration of the unemployment assist runs out, and the jobs are still leaving the country due to more favorable tax situations out of the country ? Tax assist for business is just one of the costs of an unregulated free trade global market. Well, I thought this topic was about giving specific businesses tax benefits (or specific zones in a city/town having tax benefits) - not ALL businesses receiving the same benefits. All businesses receiving the same benefit is a different story. Maybe I misunderstand?
I'm pretty sure my city (and the way it hands out tax benefits or not) happens in most places. Some of the businesses that lobby for and cut deals with the government (local or state or federal) will stay in business and some will fold. Some of the business will know the end is near and will try to get whatever they can before they close the doors.
The Carrier deal just reeks of 'desperation' to me (desperation from the state). I'd bet that in a few years Carrier will close their plant anyway -- it's too expensive to re-tool or rebuild the plant once it's enough out of date. And they seem to want a new plant/place of business. There doesn't seem to be a long term plan for keeping the business in Indiana. On the other hand - it's possible some other state will court Carrier and perhaps their new plant will be built somewhere else in America.
I'm assuming Carrier needs a NEW updated manufacturing plant (and that's part of the reason they need to move). And that it's more cost effective to build and furnish that plant in Mexico. I suspect it isn't just the 'cheap labor' to run the plant OR the lower taxes in Mexico that makes the move attractive.
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countrygirl
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Post by countrygirl on Dec 1, 2016 19:33:57 GMT -5
And yet they made $5 billion dollars last year so the wages didn't cost them enough to make a loss. These businesses do not want to share in the prosperity of the country only make more and more.
The issue I have Indiana already had given them tax incentives to come here and they were talking about clawing them back because they were leaving so now we give them more and they are only saving a few of the jobs. Oh the CEO got something like $140 million dollar bonus. And they only paid 9% tax rate last year.
Now tell me why they are doing so poorly again?
They want our wonderful country to supply them a safe place to live but don't want to participate in helping pay for it. I say slap tariffs on their ass or don't let them participate in defense contracts or something.
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MN-Investor
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Post by MN-Investor on Dec 2, 2016 0:24:02 GMT -5
I hear this a lot - but I never hear the reasons for hating wealth inequality (envy? jealousy?). It's almost as if the phrase wealth inequality is self-explanatory? It seems to be Far Left mantra - aka haters of Business, Corporations' In my Free Market World, 'wealth inequality' is the prime catalyst - entrepreneurs invest their capital into commercial enterprises - ie, build factories, buy production machinery, buy trucks, buy components, buy materials, hire 1000's of workers - and spread commerce thru-out the community to the support/service functions - streets, infrastructure, restaurants, stores, yada. Nope, that's trickle down economics. I remember believing in that when I was in my 20s. Now that I'm in my 60s and have more than enough to live on, I see the fallacy in that. Which is going to have more effect on the economy, giving $500 to 1,000 low income single mothers, or giving $500,000 to me? It's the same total amount. My assertion is that the $500 to 10,000 low income single mothers goes right back into the economy. It buys food and clothing and movie tickets and furniture. $500,000 to me? I buy a low expense index fund. My money isn't even going to the underlying companies. It's going to other investors. My money is not doing anything for the economy. I could be like the super rich and park my money offshore. That really removes it. The problem with income inequality is that the rich have removed the money from the economy. They're not going to invest in factories if there is no demand for the product. When the economy tanked in 2008, how many companies were expanding? What was the point? What point would there be in making more chairs if no one was buying chairs? Why hire more employees if no one is buying your product? So the super rich is sitting on billions which is not growing the economy. Shoot, just move some of that to paying off student loans in this country and watch the economy explode. Young folks could be buying homes and cars and having children instead of living with their parents in virtual poverty. I assert that demand drives supply. Fund that demand and the economy grows.
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dezailoooooo
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Post by dezailoooooo on Dec 2, 2016 10:35:16 GMT -5
Bernie Sanders not impressed with Trmp intervention with "Carrier AC" in Indiana...savings the 1000 jobs was neat and good for those families but in the big picture not close to solving our job problems in the States and possible in this case more harm done in long run then good. ------------------------------------------ to read complete article click on link below... www.nationalmemo.com/sanders-not-impressed-trump-carrier-deal/?utm_campaign=website&utm_source=sd&utm_medium=email----------------------------------------------- Possible to get a real handle on this problem, some cooperation needs to be done by sitting down in a three way conversation...both parties,leaders of both House and Senate and Administration and come up with a joint plan, carrot and stick...penalties against those who move businesses off shore..possible some tariffs on goods coming into the States for sale, especially against products that use to be made here but are now found overseas because companies moved manufacturing off shore...and some truth talk to Americans..from party leaders and most important the POTUS admitting that some jobs will not be able to be saved...cost to mfg here just to great..admit some workers are not going to get good paying jobs unless trained properly and might have to move to where those skills are needed... Come up with a acceptable plan on what are fair taxes, business regulations to satisfy the nations need for revenue, States needs too and still allow business people to want to keep their plants here and also rules allowing over seas profits to be brought back for investments in the States..not just to be passed out as bonuses for management or rewards for stockholders..$ have to be spent on company improvements so plants stay competitive and even grow so more workers can possible be hired...Possible a bit along those lines , which means cooperation between both political parties and as important..the Administration too.... Now that I reread my statement above I also realize what I am asking is impossible to have happen , is just impossible..more that I can walk on water then such mentioned above actually be possible...We are doomed..just not yet fully recognizable but doomed we are...[sigh..shudder..gloom]
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2016 14:01:43 GMT -5
Great semantics. Do you have a projected or actual percentage of success/failures in all businesses that would receive in an across the board favorable tax climate. Or does cherry picking a couple of situations that didn't work reflect the whole as presented in your post (Think 535 million tax loss Solyndra) This is somewhat a narrow view without considering the long term effects. What happens when the duration of the unemployment assist runs out, and the jobs are still leaving the country due to more favorable tax situations out of the country ? Tax assist for business is just one of the costs of an unregulated free trade global market. Well, I thought this topic was about giving specific businesses tax benefits (or specific zones in a city/town having tax benefits) - not ALL businesses receiving the same benefits. All businesses receiving the same benefit is a different story. Maybe I misunderstand?
I'm pretty sure my city (and the way it hands out tax benefits or not) happens in most places. Some of the businesses that lobby for and cut deals with the government (local or state or federal) will stay in business and some will fold. Some of the business will know the end is near and will try to get whatever they can before they close the doors.
The Carrier deal just reeks of 'desperation' to me (desperation from the state). I'd bet that in a few years Carrier will close their plant anyway -- it's too expensive to re-tool or rebuild the plant once it's enough out of date. And they seem to want a new plant/place of business. There doesn't seem to be a long term plan for keeping the business in Indiana. On the other hand - it's possible some other state will court Carrier and perhaps their new plant will be built somewhere else in America.
I'm assuming Carrier needs a NEW updated manufacturing plant (and that's part of the reason they need to move). And that it's more cost effective to build and furnish that plant in Mexico. I suspect it isn't just the 'cheap labor' to run the plant OR the lower taxes in Mexico that makes the move attractive.
It's all of the above as you listed.
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steff
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Post by steff on Dec 2, 2016 14:34:53 GMT -5
Rafael Sánchez @rafaelontv 17h17 hours ago Indiana, USA
Breaking: Carrier confirms in letter to workers that fan coil jobs will "relocate" to Mexico by end of 2017. @rtv6 @indythisweek 264 replies 3,136 retweets 2,101 likes
go to the tweet to see the actual letter issued by Carrier.
The hostages are still being killed. But hey, it's a WIN!
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Dec 2, 2016 15:58:34 GMT -5
I hear this a lot - but I never hear the reasons for hating wealth inequality (envy? jealousy?). It's almost as if the phrase wealth inequality is self-explanatory? It seems to be Far Left mantra - aka haters of Business, Corporations' In my Free Market World, 'wealth inequality' is the prime catalyst - entrepreneurs invest their capital into commercial enterprises - ie, build factories, buy production machinery, buy trucks, buy components, buy materials, hire 1000's of workers - and spread commerce thru-out the community to the support/service functions - streets, infrastructure, restaurants, stores, yada. Yeah, but in reality if the workers are paid fairly and the execs are paid 300X what the workers are making, the excess $$ they are being paid is stolen from the stockholders (ie. Most of us at YM).
urbanmilwaukee.com/2015/06/23/murphys-law-the-incredible-rise-of-ceo-pay/
I just looked at a more recent publication with CEO Salary figures and Molinari and other execs at Johnson Controls are all making huge hauls in overall compensation...I suspect they are benefiting from the inversion the Johnson Controls is in the process of completing. (I think Molinari is a scum bag, but our Corp. Counsel took exception to the second example listed above - Gale Klappa of Wisconsin Energy is in reality paid buy all the consumers of public Utilities in Wisconsin.
I have a really hard time imagining how someone is uniquely qualified to lead a corporation so much so that they are the only person that can do that job therefore we can justify paying them 19 million dollars. I bet there are thousands of well qualified applicants willing to do the job for say 5 million dollars.
Now, on another note, as to giving $$ to corporations to create or retain jobs. Wisconsin has a really poor track record on actually seing performance on this issue. It was just written up in the Milaukee BizTimes: www.biztimes.com/2016/11/28/playing-the-tax-incentive-game/
2010 W Solar Group Award 28 Million 0 actual jobs created/525 promised. Tax Credits $320,000 (verified). Bucyrus International Inc. 20 Million 946 jobs retained, promised to create 500 only created 109. Tax Credits $9.3 million. Now they have merged with Catepillar and they have announced that they are moving engineering jobs from Wisconsin to Arizona.
Shine Medical Technologies $11.2 Million WEDC lists no jobs created.
2012 Kohls Corp 62.5 Million Job retention 3783/3783 job creation 473/3000
To be fair, I do think some of those listed were worthwhile, including Kohl's, Amazon, Trane, and Milwaukee Electric Tool, but the Amazon jobs are mostly warehouse jobs and the warehouse is in a more rural area...they are having issues attracting employees at the wages they want to pay, so now they want to extend public Transportation...which will be a taxpayer cost....
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Dec 2, 2016 19:47:15 GMT -5
There was an article with quotes from the minister of something in the state in Mexico about this. Among other things he said local people in Mexico would get paid about $2 to $3 an hour. How can an American compete with that ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/huh.gif) Of course no one is upset that those 1000 kept their jobs but that is just a very small piece of the coming economic problem! This country has hundreds of millions of people who need to work for a living and $2 an hour just won't cut it. There is just no COLA in the US that would ever make that an option. One idea I have would be to bring back some laws that kept companies from making everything elsewhere onlyto import it back to the US to sell here. I can't remember the exact thing but in the 70's when the Japanese car companies like Honda and Toyota came here to build plants it wasn't because they wanted to. There was a law that put really high tariffs on good sold here if they weren't mostly made here. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what the effect of that law going away had. Another thing was the old Gov laws about selling things to the Gov had to be mostly made here also. If it wasn't your bid to provide services was round filed. Carrier can do anything they want. Make the AC units on the moon for all I care they just shouldn't be allowed to sell them to the Gov if they made them elsewhere. States and local municpalities hold little people's feet to the fire all the time on this one. It is just the big business that they won't make uphold to the same rules.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Dec 3, 2016 10:49:16 GMT -5
If anyone was watching the assembly line at carrier while the President elect was there..there was a young girl assemblying a AC..looked like one for the home and she was doing something I was familier with even almost 60 years from when I did a similer job..called bench work...lucky to get a summer job at a clean industry plant, Eastern Industries, Hamden Ct. ..asemblying something I believe for the Air Force..no idea of what it was..remember small screws, running some liquid oil product through it and it was repetitiouse and the money was very good, say $7/8 per hour or such when min wage was a couple bucks...but skilled work it wasn't though the workers who were there full time for the year were content.. If they are paying in the range of $20 per hour for this type of work...no wonder Carrier was looking to move the plant south / Mexico..I really don't know what the answer is..how we can be competitive on these type of jobs..They are well paid here, to well paid, possible because of the Union but hi tech they are not. Put tariffs on goods brought into the States? Thats been done before..then the other country does the same and our products are to high...Granted prices on Amazon for folks like me who use it are low..same for those who go into stores, malls to purchase..A four slice toaster I just purchased on line for $31 probably would cost $45 if tariffs were on it..Possible I wouldn't have purchased..purchased a two slice, cheaper model or just continued to use my toaster oven that doesn't toast dark enough for me.. As I said..I really don't have a answer on how to solve this wage problem..job problem, especially in the heartland where all those towns with no indusries to speak of are located.. Any one here have a answer..love to hear your solutions.. Desi birngs up a couple of good points here. 60 years ago he was making $7 to $8 ph doing very similar work. Today these same assembly type workers are earning anywhere from $15 TO $26 per hour. He stated maybe $20 per hour, but articles I have read stated some jobs are started at $15 an hour. Adjusting for inflation from 60 years ago, it would seem they are vastly underpaid from what Desi was paid, so I do not believe they are being overpaid today. I imagine with all the press present video taping them working probably slowed down production as workers were saying to each other...."look at all this hubbub!" making it look like they are overpaid. I even sort of took that attitude while watching the visit. Now this begs the question of the SEIU proclaiming a living wage of $15ph for minimum wage workers who basically have no skill set other than ringing up someone's Big Mac order...... If MCD workers are worth $15 per hour, these people should be worth, at least $30 an hour.........they at least are producing something with an added value of a known quality and amount. Yes minimum wage workers at fast food are also producing something of value, but in the gran scheme of things, skill set and advanced production of something warrants being paid equivicantly more than minimum wage That said, how does any corporation survive here when you can move production to Mexico for $3 an hour with I assume virtually no benefits of any consequence attached to the workers. Just as Dezi said, I too, have no answer how we save these jobs in the long run.
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dezailoooooo
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Post by dezailoooooo on Dec 3, 2016 11:14:08 GMT -5
If anyone was watching the assembly line at carrier while the President elect was there..there was a young girl assemblying a AC..looked like one for the home and she was doing something I was familier with even almost 60 years from when I did a similer job..called bench work...lucky to get a summer job at a clean industry plant, Eastern Industries, Hamden Ct. ..asemblying something I believe for the Air Force..no idea of what it was..remember small screws, running some liquid oil product through it and it was repetitiouse and the money was very good, say $7/8 per hour or such when min wage was a couple bucks...but skilled work it wasn't though the workers who were there full time for the year were content.. If they are paying in the range of $20 per hour for this type of work...no wonder Carrier was looking to move the plant south / Mexico..I really don't know what the answer is..how we can be competitive on these type of jobs..They are well paid here, to well paid, possible because of the Union but hi tech they are not. Put tariffs on goods brought into the States? Thats been done before..then the other country does the same and our products are to high...Granted prices on Amazon for folks like me who use it are low..same for those who go into stores, malls to purchase..A four slice toaster I just purchased on line for $31 probably would cost $45 if tariffs were on it..Possible I wouldn't have purchased..purchased a two slice, cheaper model or just continued to use my toaster oven that doesn't toast dark enough for me.. As I said..I really don't have a answer on how to solve this wage problem..job problem, especially in the heartland where all those towns with no indusries to speak of are located.. Any one here have a answer..love to hear your solutions.. Desi birngs up a couple of good points here. 60 years ago he was making $7 to $8 ph doing very similar work. Today these same assembly type workers are earning anywhere from $15 TO $26 per hour. He stated maybe $20 per hour, but articles I have read stated some jobs are started at $15 an hour. Adjusting for inflation from 60 years ago, it would seem they are vastly underpaid from what Desi was paid, so I do not believe they are being overpaid today. I imagine with all the press present video taping them working probably slowed down production as workers were saying to each other...."look at all this hubbub!" making it look like they are overpaid. I even sort of took that attitude while watching the visit. Now this begs the question of the SEIU proclaiming a living wage of $15ph for minimum wage workers who basically have no skill set other than ringing up someone's Big Mac order...... If MCD workers are worth $15 per hour, these people should be worth, at least $30 an hour.........they at least are producing something with an added value of a known quality and amount. Yes minimum wage workers at fast food are also producing something of value, but in the gran scheme of things, skill set and advanced production of something warrants being paid equivicantly more than minimum wage That said, how does any corporation survive here when you can move production to Mexico for $3 an hour with I assume virtually no benefits of any consequence attached to the workers. Just as Dezi said, I too, have no answer how we save these jobs in the long run. Along with not having any idea on how to make us competitive on the world market, I had a visit for four days from my son who was looking in to check on the old man since I came home from a rehab stay due to a stroke.. Son has a outstanding job with one of the largest health care insurance companies in the nation...with stock options, bonus and his base salary he does very, very well..quite a bit over six figures counting everything as a manager..not happy in his work but realizes he is well compensated..main job seems to be handling personnel plus many programs...had just had to give notice to 50 workers..thats part of his job, why so well compensated..and this Insurence company had a record year...great earnings, profits but always point is looking to future..save $... It also hits his level too../He is in a group being offered early retirement..he has a son in 9th grade..so college still in the future..one is now a sopthmore..would like to retire in eight years..we discussed the early retirement..gave him my take..we broke down the package offered...would have all those taxes to pay..no insurance etc...and even if asaked to leave..would be offered good deal...been here since college...but that is what business is like in todays America..all employment levels..
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Dec 3, 2016 11:23:55 GMT -5
Dezi, please remember he will have the new improved Trumpcare insurance if he retires!
Sorry to hear he could be squeezed out of a company that screws all Americans all the time........but then, he was part of the process doing it to us before this happened to him......
(maybe he should have voted Republican the last 20 years and we would not be in this mess)
Okay I am being snarky..............but there is a sliver of truth in my statements.
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dezailoooooo
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Post by dezailoooooo on Dec 3, 2016 13:39:31 GMT -5
Dezi, please remember he will have the new improved Trumpcare insurance if he retires! Sorry to hear he could be squeezed out of a company that screws all Americans all the time........but then, he was part of the process doing it to us before this happened to him...... (maybe he should have voted Republican the last 20 years and we would not be in this mess) Okay I am being snarky..............but there is a sliver of truth in my statements. Oh he has been voting GOP for long time now...he's a social liberal but financial conservative..this go around voted third party..living in Ct he knew his vote not needed...Not sure how the company he works for screws America..important industry and government insurance hasn't been a life saver..Industry he works for employees thousands...gives away many $ philathropic...pays much in taxes..of course makes a profit..isn't that what business is all about.. If not that then there is comminism..hasn't worked so well and socialism...we are part of that but the Bernie Sanders type..for me a bit unrealistic in the real world..but that is me. As far as my son...he would get a nice package if he was made to leave..but think for right now he is going to see what is what...not commit to leaving..suggested he might want to talk to some head hunters out there to see what might be available... Counting all the taxes he pays he does pay a lot..had him figure out top of his head the figures and I can see why interested in making a move when he retires, kids are out of school..he's thinking Carolinas..Kentucky ..but so far just thinking...cost of living much less...more house, property for your buck...Just told him to save as much as he can... At one time he was leasing automobiles...last time he made a big purchase , a $50,000 big whatever..suggested don't get rid of when paid off..and he took my advice, think it's eight years or more years old..well paid off..he just purchased a used black Jeep for fun...
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dezailoooooo
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Post by dezailoooooo on Dec 3, 2016 15:12:14 GMT -5
I hear this a lot - but I never hear the reasons for hating wealth inequality (envy? jealousy?). It's almost as if the phrase wealth inequality is self-explanatory? It seems to be Far Left mantra - aka haters of Business, Corporations' In my Free Market World, 'wealth inequality' is the prime catalyst - entrepreneurs invest their capital into commercial enterprises - ie, build factories, buy production machinery, buy trucks, buy components, buy materials, hire 1000's of workers - and spread commerce thru-out the community to the support/service functions - streets, infrastructure, restaurants, stores, yada. Yeah, but in reality if the workers are paid fairly and the execs are paid 300X what the workers are making, the excess $$ they are being paid is stolen from the stockholders (ie. Most of us at YM).
urbanmilwaukee.com/2015/06/23/murphys-law-the-incredible-rise-of-ceo-pay/
I just looked at a more recent publication with CEO Salary figures and Molinari and other execs at Johnson Controls are all making huge hauls in overall compensation...I suspect they are benefiting from the inversion the Johnson Controls is in the process of completing. (I think Molinari is a scum bag, but our Corp. Counsel took exception to the second example listed above - Gale Klappa of Wisconsin Energy is in reality paid buy all the consumers of public Utilities in Wisconsin.
I have a really hard time imagining how someone is uniquely qualified to lead a corporation so much so that they are the only person that can do that job therefore we can justify paying them 19 million dollars. I bet there are thousands of well qualified applicants willing to do the job for say 5 million dollars.
Now, on another note, as to giving $$ to corporations to create or retain jobs. Wisconsin has a really poor track record on actually seing performance on this issue. It was just written up in the Milaukee BizTimes: www.biztimes.com/2016/11/28/playing-the-tax-incentive-game/
2010 W Solar Group Award 28 Million 0 actual jobs created/525 promised. Tax Credits $320,000 (verified). Bucyrus International Inc. 20 Million 946 jobs retained, promised to create 500 only created 109. Tax Credits $9.3 million. Now they have merged with Catepillar and they have announced that they are moving engineering jobs from Wisconsin to Arizona.
Shine Medical Technologies $11.2 Million WEDC lists no jobs created.
2012 Kohls Corp 62.5 Million Job retention 3783/3783 job creation 473/3000
To be fair, I do think some of those listed were worthwhile, including Kohl's, Amazon, Trane, and Milwaukee Electric Tool, but the Amazon jobs are mostly warehouse jobs and the warehouse is in a more rural area...they are having issues attracting employees at the wages they want to pay, so now they want to extend public Transportation...which will be a taxpayer cost....
I believe much of these CEO inflated renumerations are in the form of stock options that they are granted if companys hit certain goals so while great payoffs not actual salaries that would reflect as salary expenses...
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dezailoooooo
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Post by dezailoooooo on Dec 3, 2016 15:39:35 GMT -5
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MN-Investor
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Post by MN-Investor on Dec 3, 2016 15:44:49 GMT -5
I believe much of these CEO inflated renumerations are in the form of stock options that they are granted if companys hit certain goals so while great payoffs not actual salaries that would reflect as salary expenses... THIS is one reason why my husband and I have invested heavily in stocks for many years. Both Republicans and Democrats want businesses to succeed. Shoot... just look who is donating to them and who is hiring the lobbyists wooing them. The politicians know the CEOs by name. So American business will always succeed, as a whole. Moreover, business management is rewarded when stock values increase. They get bonuses based on that, they receive stock from their companies, and they enjoy the benefits of their company's stock value increasing. It only makes financial sense to own American stock when you see all the efforts going into making it successful. And that's worked very, very well for us.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 3, 2016 16:52:56 GMT -5
Sarah Palin lambasted President-elect Donald Trump for the deal reached with Carrier and United Technologies, calling him out for “crony capitalism”. Ms Palin, the former governor of Alaska and 2008 Republican vice presidential candidate, has been an outspoken supporter of Mr Trump. In fact, she is being considered for the Veterans Affairs spot in his Cabinet. In an editorial published on the Young Conservatives website, Ms Palin said the deal – which would keep Carrier from sending 800 of about 2,000 Carrier jobs to Mexico – was “political intrusion using a stick or a carrot to bribe or force one individual business to do what politicians insist”. www.msn.com/en-ca/news/politics/sarah-palin-blasts-donald-trumps-deal-with-carrier-as-crony-capitalism/ar-AAl4JpE?li=AAadgLE&ocid=spartandhp
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Dec 3, 2016 17:49:50 GMT -5
It's not unusual for state gov'ts to offer incentives to companies in the form of tax breaks. Pence is still gov of Indiana. So the tax payers of Indiana will likely pick up the cost. Noted that the unions were excluded from the talks. So the jobs remaining are likely to be lower paying with fewer benefits. But a good PR move. So tax incentives to retain jobs in this country are a negative ? How does that compare to tax money used for unemployment checks ? ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png) No need to be afraid to answer this. The figures I'm reading are tax breaks totaling $7million. UE benefits in Indiana are a max of $390/week for a max of 26 weeks. So a total cost of UE for one worker would be a maximum of $2535. Times 1000 would be $25,535 vs $7 million. He gets the PR. The tax payers get the bill. Making America Great Again!
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Deleted
Joined: Jun 25, 2024 19:57:31 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2016 20:14:04 GMT -5
So tax incentives to retain jobs in this country are a negative ? How does that compare to tax money used for unemployment checks ? ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png) No need to be afraid to answer this. The figures I'm reading are tax breaks totaling $7million. UE benefits in Indiana are a max of $390/week for a max of 26 weeks. So a total cost of UE for one worker would be a maximum of $2535. Times 1000 would be $25,535 vs $7 million. He gets the PR. The tax payers get the bill. Making America Great Again! Times 10 equals 25,535. Times 1000 equals 2,535,000. The 7 million is spread over ten years. How about making math great again for your slogan? I wonder how many dollars will be paid in business and employee income tax for those next ten years? ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png)
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