Is this legal? Condo association question

[Ava]

A couple of weeks ago I found a leaflet at my door stating that the condo association board had decided to suspend snow removal in order to save money.
Going forward, each unit is responsible for snow removal of walkways, driveways, balconies and entryways. The condos are townhouses. We each have our own entryway and driveway. Our driveways face the street.

Our insurance premiums have doubled due to numerous claims. Apparently, there was fraud during the years the association decided to self-manage and there is no money. So some repair issues that shouldn't have gone through insurance were solved that way, and now we are paying the consequences.

In order to cover the higher premiums our monthly dues went up $60 a month last July.

When I look at the budget the board approved there is money set aside for savings and money set aside for snow removal.
I've contacted the management company and the treasurer but none of them has answered my questions regarding the snow removal line in the budget or whether a condo association can legally suspend snow removal service.
This puts a big burden on me because I cannot shovel snow, both due to strength issues and time commitments. We are not allowed to use a snow blower since the units are so close together. Blowing the snow means covering your next door's neighbors driveway in snow.
I am getting ready to put the condo up for rent, but I still plan to spend this winter here and rent it out by April or May. Besides that, I don't feel comfortable renting it out without snow removal services. If a renter has a slip and fall accident they will probably sue me.

I am going to call Consumer Protection Services on Monday and put a claim through them. I really believe the board's decision is not legal.

If you know anything about condo laws, and any suggestions or help with this issue will be appreciated.

[justme]

Not sure a consumer division would help in these matters since it's not with you consuming anything, but maybe they can direct you.

As for legality - I would assume that unless there's a law in your state/city regarding this or is spelled out in your hoa docs then it's legal. And if it's just in the docs they could easily rewrite most things.

[dee27]

You "own what is inside the sidewalk"; the rest is the responsibility of the HOA. I doubt that individual owners can be sued if the HOA was irresponsible about snow removal even if due to a deficiency in funds. There is a bigger liability to the community if individual owners take over physical tasks outside of their condos. If snow removal is a line item in the budget, I do not understand how the HOA can remove the service w/o a majority vote from the owners. However, I am not a lawyer.

The HOA could demand an assessment from each owner to cover the cost of snow removal or increase the dues again to cover the alleged shortage. Usually the assessment is payable monthly or in a lump sum. In my opinion, the HOA is inviting more problems by not taking care of the physical property. The state has strict laws about the use of HOA funds: how they can be invested; how much of the HOA dues must be set aside for capital improvement; how to make up HOA shortages, etc. I hope the HOA is still paying for liability insurance. BTW, the HOA should have a lawyer on retainer, and that attorney may give you insight into the legality of this situation.

In CT, the consumer advocate's office is usually staffed by volunteers who give out information, but it is under the umbrella of the State Attorney General. When I asked for information about state programs for my parents, I was given the names and phone numbers for several senior programs. A call is worth your time even if the office directs you to other sources.

I hope you find a resolution.

[dee27]

Here is a link that may help you. www.jud.ct.gov/lawlib/law/condominiums.htm

[Tiny]

If you know anything about condo laws, and any suggestions or help with this issue will be appreciated.

This sounds like "a consult a lawyer who's familiar with HOA issues" problem. If you have your HOA agreement (and the other documentation) and you are comfortable googling (and are willing to sift thru/research) you might find info on line that's applicable to your STATE/County or even area. I'm guessing you are NOT the first person to have this problem/issue.

I would imagine that having the HOA foist snow shoveling off onto the residents would have MANY of the residents HOWLING in rage - that's one of the draws of townhouses/condos/gated communities - NO snow/lawn care/amenitity care for the residences - they pay for that thru their fees.

I'd see who else is upset by this change - and then see if you all can join forces. I'd also seek the advice of a Lawyer (if a bunch of you can agree it might defray any costs involved with the consultation.) If nothing else - if you MUST shovel your own snow - maybe you and the others who cannot shovel/clear snow - can combine and hire your own service to do (which might defray the extra cost).

[Ava]

Unfortunately, it looks like engaging a lawyer would be the best course of action.
I've talked to a few neighbors. Half the units are rentals, and renters are complaining to their landlords. That's all they are doing so far.

My next door neighbor offered to clean my driveway when he cleans his. He said he'll do it for free but I can't have that; it's a long driveway. So I said I'll pay him.
This brings a financial burden on me. We are already paying almost $300 a month in fees, and there are no amenities. It's just water, insurance, garbage disposal and snow removal.

It's very disappointing and worrying the stance the board has taken. They don't listen, they don't answer questions.
I've been googling and searching the internet for answers but there's not much information regarding this particular issue of snow removal.
The only agency dealing with condo associations here seems to be Consumer Protection Services, which doesn't make much sense to me. I'm going to call them tomorrow morning and see what they say.
But I fear I'll end up shelling money for an attorney because I don't believe that agency will help me. This is a very low-income place. I sincerely doubt other tenants or owners have the financial resources to chip in for a lawyer fee.

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

In the meantime, Ava, how the heck are you??!!

You've been missed and many of us worried about you!!

How did the CPA exam go?

What is the plan if you are thinking of renting the condo in April or May -- still move to Florida?

Stay in touch, girl.  You know how we worry about our members.  

[Ava]

Nov 13, 2016 13:02:57 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

In the meantime, Ava , how the heck are you??!!

You've been missed and many of us worried about you!!

How did the CPA exam go?

What is the plan if you are thinking of renting the condo in April or May -- still move to Florida?

Stay in touch, girl.  You know how we worry about our members.  

Thanks for asking.
Things are going well. My health is much better.
I took the Far section of the CPA exam in July and got 73. I am re-taking it in a few days.
Yes, the plan is to pass Far and possibly Audit and move to Florida.
I've been in touch with a management company who are willing to take the condo to rent it out, the rental price is reasonable. it would cover the expenses, I just need to solve this snow issue now.
Same job, same people, etc. Got a raise at work . At some point I wanted a promotion but I don't care anymore about that.

How are you doing?

[Pants]

Someone here is the president of their condo association - i just can't remember who. Dammit - anyone know who i'm talking about?

[taz157]

Nov 13, 2016 13:16:35 GMT -5 Pants said:

Someone here is the president of their condo association - i just can't remember who. Dammit - anyone know who i'm talking about?

chiver78 was on the condo board I thought, but not the president of it

[saveinla]

Nov 13, 2016 13:16:35 GMT -5 Pants said:

Someone here is the president of their condo association - i just can't remember who. Dammit - anyone know who i'm talking about?

I think it is @donethat , but I think she is not posting anymore. I also thought that chiver78 was on the board of an hoa. 

I think snapdragon also has joined the board of an hoa or something - not sure if it is a condo though.

[dee27]

Being on a HOA board is a thankless, unpaid job, but that is why it is important to have a lawyer on retainer to represent the interests of the owners. The management company for Ava's community sounds like it collects fees and little else. I am surprised that the HOA allows a large number of rentals. The landlords do not live in the community and have less skin in the game. 

[Ava]

Nov 13, 2016 13:30:45 GMT -5 dee27 said:

Being on a HOA board is a thankless, unpaid job, but that is why it is important to have a lawyer on retainer to represent the interests of the owners. The management company for Ava's community sounds like it collects fees and little else. I am surprised that the HOA allows a large number of rentals. The landlords do not live in the community and have less skin in the game. 

Exactly. The renters are complaining to their landlords, who do not live here and are not directly affected by this measure. Basically, they don't care.

I understand being a board member is a difficult job, and I've been very respectful in my emails to them regarding the snow removal problem. They just don't respond or give evasive answers such as "I'll look into it" and never get back at you. So you email or call them again and they ignore you.

I looked up the management company they hired and he's not BBB approved. There are quite a few negative reviews about it in the BBB webpage.
When I contacted the management company person he was very insensitive to my particular situation. Even when I pointed out possible liability issues for the association due to slip and fall accidents he just told me his job is to enforce the board decisions and nothing else.
Hopefully I'll get some answer from the Consumer Protection Agency tomorrow. Otherwise it looks like hiring a lawyer would be my only option, and that's going to be expensive.

[Deleted]

I owned a townhouse in st louis. The HOA never cleaned our driveways but they removed the snow from the street.

[Bonny]

Ava,

You will need to review your HOA docs. There are certain decisions the Board can make without getting approval from the homeowners and other decisions they need approval for. Make sure you know what those decisions are before you start reporting violations to governmental agencies or a lawyer.

It sounds to me that the input the Board got was that the residents preferred to do snow removal themselves vs increasing the dues. The management company is right, they take direction from the board not individual residents. One option you have is to write a formal letter to the Board about your concerns about liability and follow up with going to an HOA meeting.

I have influenced Board decisions for my rental condo. People tend to blow off non owner occupants as not caring. For me, my condo was my mother's house and I have kept it with the idea that it would be at least a part time residence for me at some point. It's far more than just an investment for me but there is that element as well. But I understand that not every landlord feels the same way and it's been some work on my part to convince both the HOA PMs as well as board members that I really do care about the community.

[taz157]

My mom rented a townhouse before in an area that got snow. Snow removal was a mix. They handled the main roads but each townhouse was responsible for the driveway and the sidewalk in front of their house.

Like Bonny said, read what the association documents say closely before you contact a lawyer. Also, look at the budget in comparison to see if the snow removal amount change is reasonable to see that the snow removal decreased enough for only main roads versus main roads, driveways, and sidewalks.

[chiver78]

Nov 13, 2016 13:25:18 GMT -5 taz157 said:

Nov 13, 2016 13:16:35 GMT -5 Pants said:

Someone here is the president of their condo association - i just can't remember who. Dammit - anyone know who i'm talking about?

chiver78 was on the condo board I thought, but not the president of it

correct on both counts. I'll check out the OP and thread, and answer if I can. obviously, I'm not a lawyer, and I can only speak from my own experiences on the board of a Massachusetts HOA.

[TheOtherMe]

When I lived in a townhouse in Boulder, CO, there was no snow removal provided period.  There were a couple of times I couldn't get to work because I couldn't get from my garage (2nd unit from street) to the street.  So it cost me vacation time.  Then I was young enough that I did my own snow removal and I shoveled.

I've since owned a condo where they did snow removal but the monthly fees were outrageous and went up every year.  I'm glad I no longer live there.

I have also lived in single family dwellings with HOAs.  One was for a swimming pool.  That was all it did.  All the other one did was trash and lawn mowing.  It was a private street, so the city didn't blow it and neither did the HOA.  We each took care of our own snow removal, also. 

Imo, HOAs just look out for themselves, not the owners or renters.

[tskeeter]

Nov 13, 2016 19:00:15 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

When I lived in a townhouse in Boulder, CO, there was no snow removal provided period.  There were a couple of times I couldn't get to work because I couldn't get from my garage (2nd unit from street) to the street.  So it cost me vacation time.  Then I was young enough that I did my own snow removal and I shoveled.

I've since owned a condo where they did snow removal but the monthly fees were outrageous and went up every year.  I'm glad I no longer live there.

I have also lived in single family dwellings with HOAs.  One was for a swimming pool.  That was all it did.  All the other one did was trash and lawn mowing.  It was a private street, so the city didn't blow it and neither did the HOA.  We each took care of our own snow removal, also. 

Imo, HOAs just look out for themselves, not the owners or renters.

TOM, in forming opinions about HOA's, I think you need to consider the role of an HOA board of directors.  First, an HOA board is not a mini municipal government.  The only role of an HOA board is to monitor and try to ensure compliance with the association CC&R's and to manage the activities specified in the CC&R's.  Those CC&R's, the contract between a member homeowner (note this does not include renters) and the rest of the HOA members, bothspecifies and limits the activities that a HOA board can be involved in.  For example, you may not want your HOA to form and operate it's own fire department.  The CC&R's would prevent that.

If your HOA is not meeting your expectations, I think a good starting point would be to study your contract with your neighbors and see where the obligations and limitations are imposed on the board.  If the board isn't meeting it's obligations, it's time to start pushing for the board to meet it's obligations.  If the CC&R's don't require the board to do something you think they should.  You can start a campaign to change the CC&R's.  

A caution, though.  As has already been pointed out, most HOA directors volunteer their time and energy without compensation.  And, I can tell you from personal experience, that time and effort is considerable.  Make an unpaid volunteer position excessively demanding and you may find yourselves without anyone willing to volunteer.  Here in NV, that would mean that a state agency would appoint an attorney to run the HOA on behalf of the members.  At considerable expense to the members.  And possibly not consistent with the wishes of the members.

[chiver78]

thank you, tskeeter. I know that the board I served on looked out for the lot of us, and not just "ourselves" even though we were benefitting from a healthy HOA as well.  

ava, you've gotten some good advice. I can't remember what state you're in, so keep in mind that I am in MA and my laws may be different from yours. absolutely check your HOA documentation to see what is recorded as far as deeds, rules and regs, and any other supplemental documentation. if something is registered with the state/county/whatever Registry of Deeds, it isn't so simple as "we can just rewrite this rule". 

I would suggest consulting a lawyer, and absolutely NOT the one that the HOA has hired. in this situation, that lawyer is representing the HOA (directed by the board) and not you, the individual homeowner. I know that goes against logic if the HOA is supposed to be representing you, but if you end up embroiled in a court case over this or anything else - the lawyer hired by the HOA represents the board as they represent the association. you are on your own. 

I hope that helps.....if there's stuff you don't want to post here, please feel free to PM me. again, I may not be in your state, so my answers may or may not help you. but I'll try

[dee27]

Our voluntary HOA board is very good, but they inherited a mess from the former board because the president of the HOA deferred most issues of maintenance and repairs to the management company, and he set aside the minimum % by law for capital reserves. The management company really gouged the owners and was not responsive or timely with answers to questions from the residents. Technically, the president ran the HOA like a one-man show and many of the members quit. When he said he was calling companies to get bids, he called the management company and asked them to get the bids. The residents did not find out until several members quit the board. In our state, the law says the HOA board is held harmless unless it is proven that the board knowingly broke the law (stolen funds for personal gain).

When it was time to vote in new board members, we made sure to not re-elect the former president, and we hired a management company that does not nickel and dime the owners. Now, we have a diligent board, and ironically, the former president questions everything the board does because transparency is needed. The HOA board meets monthly and more often when a problem arises, and the members and management company are responsive to residents' questions. Our HOA is now on solid ground since it corrected most of the errors made by the previous president, but the owners are also more involved. Generally, we get 90-95% of the owners at the annual meetings. However, I live in a community where only 5% of the condos can be rented.

[tskeeter]

Nov 13, 2016 22:01:46 GMT -5 dee27 said:

Our voluntary HOA board is very good, but they inherited a mess from the former board because the president of the HOA deferred most issues of maintenance and repairs to the management company, and he set aside the minimum % by law for capital reserves. The management company really gouged the owners and was not responsive or timely with answers to questions from the residents. Technically, the president ran the HOA like a one-man show and many of the members quit. When he said he was calling companies to get bids, he called the management company and asked them to get the bids. The residents did not find out until several members quit the board. In our state, the law says the HOA board is held harmless unless it is proven that the board knowingly broke the law (stolen funds for personal gain).

When it was time to vote in new board members, we made sure to not re-elect the former president, and we hired a management company that does not nickel and dime the owners. Now, we have a diligent board, and ironically, the former president questions everything the board does because transparency is needed. The HOA board meets monthly and more often when a problem arises, and the members and management company are responsive to residents' questions. Our HOA is now on solid ground since it corrected most of the errors made by the previous president, but the owners are also more involved. Generally, we get 90-95% of the owners at the annual meetings. However, I live in a community where only 5% of the condos can be rented.

Dee, sounds like you've got a great HOA.  Because you and your neighbors made the effort to change the direction.  Congratulations!

I agree with your comments about HOA member involvement.  I happened to be one of the initial Board members when our HOA was transitioned from developer control to homeowner control.  That initial board structured the way the HOA operates to involve homeowners when possible.  A committee of members manages compliance with the construction and architectural aspects of our CC&R's.  A second committee monitors maintenance of our common areas, including performing some maintenance chores that would be difficult to hire someone to do.  A third group coordinates several social activities for the neighborhood.  Everything from Easter egg hunts and collector car show and shines to fund raiser wine tasting/auctions to support our local food bank.  This structure has resulted in a significant cadre of members who are well versed in what is going on in the HOA, how the HOA operates, and who can assist their neighbors who need to interact with the HOA.  The committee structure also acts a orientation ground for future board members and as a way for former board members to continue to serve their neighbors.  It works so well that the management company uses our HOA as an example of how a HOA can operate with some of their other clients.

Guys, your HOA is what you make it into.  If you're not happy with your HOA, the easiest way to make changes is to get involved in your HOA's management.  Run for the board.  It takes our commitment to making changes to turn our HOA's into the places where we want to live.

[alabamagal]

Ava, glad to hear you are doing well!

Best thing to solve to snow removal issue is to move to Florida

[snapdragon]

Everyone is correct. Ava you should re-read your CC&R packet and if you still have questions contact a HOA lawyer. 

Much to my chagrin (WTF was I thinking?) I am now president of our HOA. I have been on my condo board for the last several years just to make sure that I knew what was going on. So far this is what I have had to deal with since June.

Replacing bad/ breaking curbs and tripping hazards. 
Getting in a tree trimming company to cut back the overgrowth.
Replacing the exterior building lights -- the contract is signed and lights are on order
We have to now replace our old mailboxes due to break in issues so that has been moved up. Which could mean us having to move the boxes per USPS guidlines.
Black mold in someones place from when something went wrong and was fixed by the Mgmt co before I even bought my unit. This is at least 12 years ago...

We have dues that are over $400 month. We are attempting to make sure we have money in our reserves due to up coming structural fixes. I am talking new siding, decks, windows and doors depending on how this pans out it could cost between 700K - 1 MM and we only have 28 units. So my cost could be up to $36K on the work. 
Also - depending on the age of your units your insurance company could have dropped you and you ended up having to get a more expensive policy. This happened to us about 6 years ago. Our insurance dropped us due to the age of the buildings and so when we got a new policy it went from $7K per year to over $11K. That was with us being grouped in with several other HOA associations in the same boat. That is something that can completely mess up a budget.

Not being on the east coast we do not have snow removal in our CC&R's. What we have is about 3 snow shovels and they get pulled out of the shed and used as needed.

Best of luck on getting some answers that will help you in the future.

[Ava]

I contacted Consumer Protection Services to find out more about this snow issue.
They told me CPS does not deal with Condo Association matters. In order to go through with this I would have to start a civil lawsuit. That seems expensive, time and energy consuming, and disproportionate with the situation.
So an advice for everybody out there; once you have an issue with a condo association, it is very difficult to solve.

I wasn't focusing on this situation for now because I have the FAR exam in less than two weeks. The idea was to set this problem aside until after the exam.

Last night I got an email from the treasurer and another from the management company informing me that there will be a meeting in early December to discuss the snow removal situation.
I am going to attend and vote for restoration of snow removal services.
If you have any idea of arguments I can present to those who oppose me, please share with me.

Lesson learned; anything can be discussed during a meeting, even items that were not in the agenda. So from now on I'll be there for every meeting as long as I'm in state, and I'll send someone to represent me once I move out.

[973beachbum]

My mom owned a condo in Ma for about ten years.  It was a condo but from a looks standpoint it looked like a town house.  She owned the inside but the condo association owned the outside.  So technically she owned the inside of the walls but the siding on the outside was theirs. 

Things like the taxes and insurance were also split because she didn't own everything as if she was a regular home owner.  So in that case the condo assoc did things like plow snow and arranged pick up of garbage ect.  The way my mom explained it to me is if someone slipped and fell it would be on the associations insurance because that is their property not hers.  She said every now and then someone would try and get it removed.  In their mind it would save money but in reality not very much.  They still would have had to plow the streets because it was their property since they were all privately owned by the assoc.  There were also decent number of seniors who just would have stayed in until it thawed or someone else came in to shovel it. 

And I can't imagine what the fight would be like if some 80 yr old fell and and broke their hip because they were ordered to shovel the driveway or walk when it is really the condo associations property.

[justme]

FYI you might be shit out of luck once you move. My hoa only allows owners to be present for the meetings.

[tskeeter]

Nov 17, 2016 9:08:12 GMT -5 justme said:

FYI you might be shit out of luck once you move. My hoa only allows owners to be present for the meetings.

Hmm.  I'm surprised that someone can't designate an agent to attend meetings on their behalf.  I can understand if only owners can vote, but preventing an owner's representative from listening to the discussion at a meeting seems a bit restrictive.

[taz157]

FWIW, I've owned a home in 2 different HOAs with the house our primary residence and we've never attended any of the meetings.

[justme]

Nov 17, 2016 11:21:21 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

Nov 17, 2016 9:08:12 GMT -5 justme said:

FYI you might be shit out of luck once you move. My hoa only allows owners to be present for the meetings.

Hmm.  I'm surprised that someone can't designate an agent to attend meetings on their behalf.  I can understand if only owners can vote, but preventing an owner's representative from listening to the discussion at a meeting seems a bit restrictive.

Maybe? To be fair a lot over half the units are rented and not many owners show up to meetings. They've yet to get enough signatures any year for a quorum.