janee
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Post by janee on Sept 23, 2016 12:12:25 GMT -5
I think Milee has nailed it. As an employer I have to take it seriously. You have to do what the law says. My personal opinion is to always try to go the extra mile when I can for an employee because it builds trust, loyalty, makes business sense, and in general, it's just general human decency. I try to be part of a solution, not a problem with employees.
You all have been very helpful. I will wait to see what my employee says. I am also trying to balance the fact she works in the office with another employee so her feelings have to considered too. The other employee doesn't think the pumping will be an issue for her (noise volume wise) so we may try to curtain off the cubicle.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 23, 2016 12:21:10 GMT -5
It's worth trying if her coworker doesn't think she'll mind. Worst case you have to think up something else but at least you have a starting place for now.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Sept 23, 2016 12:22:25 GMT -5
Maybe she just found out about it? It's not something that's heavily advertised unlike FMLA. I didn't know about it until I got handed the information by my OB. I wasn't even sure I wanted to pump so I wasn't going to start making arrangements with my boss over something that I wasn't going to need. It about two weeks before I was ready to return we started discussing logistics and we found out there were pumping stations all over campus. Maybe the employee was thinking "Oh shit" and didn't want Janee to get in trouble for not complying with government mandates so sent the link to ask if she was aware. Why does YM always assume the worst in people? Why would Janee get in trouble for not complying? Who was going to report Janee exactly other than the new mother? That's why people are making the assumption...there's absolutely no reason to send a link to this information prior to having a conversation (particularly given that it doesn't even actually apply to this business).
So let's say she just stumbled across it. She clearly didn't read it, or if she did, she didn't understand it. It's also passive-aggressive to send this kind of thing which we know only applies to the new mother without having a conversation about what she might need in order to accommodate her pumping.
Primarily, the assumption is based on the fact there's zero risk of Janee getting in trouble over this...unless the new mom is the one who was going to try to get her into trouble.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Sept 23, 2016 12:48:55 GMT -5
I think Milee has nailed it. As an employer I have to take it seriously. You have to do what the law says. My personal opinion is to always try to go the extra mile when I can for an employee because it builds trust, loyalty, makes business sense, and in general, it's just general human decency. I try to be part of a solution, not a problem with employees.
You all have been very helpful. I will wait to see what my employee says. I am also trying to balance the fact she works in the office with another employee so her feelings have to considered too. The other employee doesn't think the pumping will be an issue for her (noise volume wise) so we may try to curtain off the cubicle.
I shared an office with my system admin. I got to kick him out 2-3x daily. I did it but it wasn't always convenient. I did borrow other offices when someone was on vacation.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Sept 23, 2016 13:04:03 GMT -5
To me it would speak volumes about the employee - I would see her as argumentative, confrontational and frankly not very.....smart bc that's not how you build relationships, especially new ones, especially since the employer (OP) sounds very reasonable and flexible. Really? Usually, I agree with you, not today.. There's no handbook on how a new parent is supposed to parent with grace and dignity. If the baby is a screamer, I'm guessing the baby isn't easy. I think even miss manners would give an exception to a sleep deprived new mom. May be you right. May be I am just jaded by all kinds of demanding people I run into lately.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Sept 23, 2016 13:09:54 GMT -5
I don't think it's confrontational. If I sound confrontational, it was/is not my intention and I apologize. I guess I was just surprised that anyone would be bringing up the fact that janee doesn't have to accommodate her - especially since she started the thread knowing she was going to do her best to accommodate this employee. I was one that posted some suggestions on how to accommodate the employee and also pointed out that the law might not be applicable here. The reason it's relevant for Janee to understand exactly what the legal requirements are is that this is one more piece of the puzzle she's trying to solve. Janee is obviously trying to figure out a reasonable plan (which is really hard to do if you don't have experience with pumping) but given the space constraints she's describing there's a good chance that she'll end up having to choose between two things: 1) A little bit of a weird or less than ideal space, like a tent or borrowing someone's private office. Would still provide the employee the bare bones of privacy and space, but might be awkward. 2) Paying to rent extra space elsewhere in the building. Why is it important that Janee knows what the law is? Because Janee's trying to figure out what the exact requirements are so she can comply and more importantly, the employee was the one that brought up the law and implied it was applicable. In my experience as an employer and consultant, having seen literally thousands of different employee interactions from a management perspective, the employees who cite the law are the ones that are almost always the most likely to be demanding and inflexible. Often, they're citing law as a way to imply they have some sort of leverage and are about to use that to push for something big. That may not be the case here - God knows, my first kid didn't sleep more than two hours at a stretch until he was a toddler and if this mom's kid is like that she may not be at all a PITA, she just literally does not have the brain power to do anything but survive right now and we should be prepared to cut her slack. But Janee should also be prepared with the facts in case she is the PITA type. Janee may be forced to offer the Type 1 solution, which although a little awkward, is very, very generous if she doesn't legally have to do anything. It's important for the long term relationship with this employee that the employee knows what the legal requirements are so she can understand the lengths (research, buying supplies, giving up her personal office) Janee is going through to be a good employer. The whole situation is totally different if Janee is just doing what the law requires versus if Janee is being a good egg and doing what's right as a caring human being. It's reasonable that the employee be aware of that important difference. As an employee, if I had to do a Type 1 situation, my reactions might be different depending on my understanding of the law. If I thought the law applied to this company, I'd be a little disappointed that their idea of accommodation was so personally awkward. If I knew the law didn't apply and the employer didn't have to do anything at all, I'd be incredibly grateful that the employer went to such lengths to help me. Big difference. This was exactly my sentiment except Milee adds a TON of professional experience to her statement. For Janee's sake I hope we both wrong bc Janee seems like a very kind and supportive and flexible employer.
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myrrh
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Post by myrrh on Sept 23, 2016 13:14:54 GMT -5
Does the small lawyer have any unused offices, people going on vacation, or maybe a server room (the loud room with tons of wires and computer stuff)? Would they mind being imposed upon for few minutes a day for a few months? I would much rather be in a server room than a pop-up tent. Otherwise I agree that curtains (or posters, or maps, or wrapping paper on the windows) in your office is a whole lot better than a tent. All she needs is a small table and a chair and a plug (although a clock for timing the pumping is nice too.)
She should be pumping more or less according to baby's feeding schedule, which in the beginning is about every two hours and over time stretches out to every three to four hours. It takes a couple of minutes to set up, about 15 to pump, and a couple of minutes to break down, so expect around 20 minutes (may be a little longer in the beginning until she gets the hang of it.)
I never liked pumping in my car, probably because my windows aren't tinted, it gets really hot, and I felt very exposed. But it is an option. I also got a comment once about how "gross" it was to have pumped milk (in a little cooler) in the break room fridge, which made me pretty self conscious. Why my kid's food was any grosser than cow's milk was beyond me. But maybe make it clear to everyone that this is an ok thing.
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steph08
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Post by steph08 on Sept 23, 2016 13:32:13 GMT -5
I'm late to this thread, but oh well.
I pump about 15-20 minutes three times a day. Somewhere between 6 and 9 months, I'll drop down to twice a day and then once a day and then none once dd2 turns 1.
I'm starting a new job next month and you better believe that I asked about pumping accommodations. But, this employer has many more than 50 people (turns out I'm getting an office so I don't even have to go anywhere to pump!).
It is something that is important to me, which is why I brought it up.
I feel you should try to accommodate her even if you legally don't have to. But the email she sent was weird.
What about changing cube configurations and putting a door on her cube so it is more office-like?
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Sept 23, 2016 13:41:26 GMT -5
I absolutely think janee should try to accommodate her, though she has no legal obligation to do so. I agree with others that the email is downright weird. I work in a small office of 10 people and I couldn't imagine sending this type of email to our CEO. It really just requires a conversation. The fact she sent the email speaks volumes to me.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Sept 23, 2016 13:50:20 GMT -5
I would be reluctant to ascribe any type of negative motivation to the mom of a newborn "screamer"... issues like the proper way to phrase an email are not usually at the top of your priority list when you're recovering from birth (and hormones!), getting 3-4 hours of broken sleep at night, and dealing with a baby who seems to hate you. Janee, I think it's great that you're going above and beyond to make your employee comfortable even if you're not legally required to do so. You sound like a very caring boss.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Sept 23, 2016 13:53:57 GMT -5
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Sept 23, 2016 14:22:14 GMT -5
This is going to seem off topic, but who here thinks the employee should have disclosed her pregnancy to janee, rather than janee learning about it from social media?
I ask because I see a lot of people on the boards saying that a pregnant interviewee should not disclose a pregnancy, generally with the logic that "the company is going to do what's best for them you've got to do what's best for you", and quite frankly I see some of those same people here telling the business owner that no matter whether she is required to or not she should go above and beyond to do what's best for the employee. So, which is it? Everyone for themselves? Or everyone to accommodate one particular employee circumstance?
Now, I have to admit I am biased because from the few things that have been disclosed by janee, I'm actually not a fan of this employee. If you're going to withhold information from a potential employer, have the decency to assume they are not complete f'ing idiots and do something about your social media. And when you have a boss who is obviously as kind and accommodating as janee, don't be a dick and just send a link with the implication "here is what you HAVE to do for me". And if you're going to be a dick and send the link, get your facts right; because as it turns out, it is not what she has to do for you and that just makes you look dumb.
It just seems like having this conversation with janee in person (say earlier this week when janee was nice enough to have her over for lunch) would have been 1000 times more professional, courteous and respectful. Even better would have been having the conversation and offering a potential solution! I'm not saying janee shouldn't do what she can to accommodate, but I'm saying this particular employee's way of going about things would make a lot of bosses less inclined to go above and beyond. And the fact that she's in sales and lacks the people skills to have had that conversation is alarming.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Sept 23, 2016 14:27:14 GMT -5
This is going to seem off topic, but who here thinks the employee should have disclosed her pregnancy to janee, rather than janee learning about it from social media?
I ask because I see a lot of people on the boards saying that a pregnant interviewee should not disclose a pregnancy, generally with the logic that "the company is going to do what's best for them you've got to do what's best for you", and quite frankly I see some of those same people here telling the business owner that no matter whether she is required to or not she should go above and beyond to do what's best for the employee. So, which is it? Everyone for themselves? Or everyone to accommodate one particular employee circumstance?
Now, I have to admit I am biased because from the few things that have been disclosed by janee, I'm actually not a fan of this employee. If you're going to withhold information from a potential employer, have the decency to assume they are not complete f'ing idiots and do something about your social media. And when you have a boss who is obviously as kind and accommodating as janee, don't be a dick and just send a link with the implication "here is what you HAVE to do for me". And if you're going to be a dick and send the link, get your facts right; because as it turns out, it is not what she has to do for you and that just makes you look dumb.
It just seems like having this conversation with janee in person (say earlier this week when janee was nice enough to have her over for lunch) would have been 1000 times more professional, courteous and respectful. Even better would have been having the conversation and offering a potential solution! I'm not saying janee shouldn't do what she can to accommodate, but I'm saying this particular employee's way of going about things would make a lot of bosses less inclined to go above and beyond. And the fact that she's in sales and lacks the people skills to have had that conversation is alarming.
THIS! Exactly THIS!
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Sept 23, 2016 14:30:10 GMT -5
I would be reluctant to ascribe any type of negative motivation to the mom of a newborn "screamer"... issues like the proper way to phrase an email are not usually at the top of your priority list when you're recovering from birth (and hormones!), getting 3-4 hours of broken sleep at night, and dealing with a baby who seems to hate you. Janee, I think it's great that you're going above and beyond to make your employee comfortable even if you're not legally required to do so. You sound like a very caring boss. We mostly don't know what's going on in the private lives of our employees and coworkers. Lots of people have stressful shit going on. I'm not inclined to give one person a pass on unprofessional behavior unless we are giving the same pass to everyone.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Sept 23, 2016 14:30:31 GMT -5
I don't think anyone has to divulge a pregnancy in the interview process but letting your employer know upon accepting an offer is reasonable and common courtesy.
This employee may have been planning to do that - IDK - Janee may have found out before the employee had the chance to tell
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Sept 23, 2016 14:42:23 GMT -5
I have only worked at one place with more than 50 people. Most were much smaller and the "offices" were three sided cubes really. Shutting a door wasn't really an option. At the one places that had more office like places they were just slightly more walled off cubes. The walls of the cubes in that case just didn't have the open wall facing out but sideways. The walls also started two fee off the ground and were four feet high. So absolutely no way to sound proof it. At the two places I work now the smaller one probably would try but I can't imagine it going on for months on end without people going crazy. There are a few smaller offices that the engineers and surveyors each have. More like a broom closet with a desk and piled high with their books and papers. They just can't do anything paperwork wise anywhere else unless they moved out and then I have no idea where their crap would go. They also come in at very set times to do paperwork stuff. On days where they have to be at a job site there just literally isn't any time for them to wait while someone used their office. The rest of the places I worked at were basically big open spaces with desks in them and partial walls to break up the space but no way you are hiding anything sight wise. The GC would probably be the worst for a different reason. There are loss prevention cameras everywhere except the bathroom. There are a few offices and I doubt anyone would mind them being used, but the camera would always be on. Personally I would probably pick the bathroom.
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janee
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Post by janee on Sept 23, 2016 15:07:51 GMT -5
She's actually a nice person, just a little immature. I haven't heard from her today so we'll see what she suggests. I think we have figured out a solution. We'll move her to another cubicle (that is the farthest from the other employee). We'll add a curtain tension rod from the side of the cubicle to the wall to give her privacy. The other female employee will be in there but she says she won't mind. There is door into this room too which can be closed. We'll make a rule, if the door is closed, no entry.
Back up plan if that doesn't work is the tent in my office
I admit my first reaction to getting the email was "whoa" but I know it doesn't apply to us.
Her sales are not where they need to be so when she comes back we'll sit down and set some milestones that have to be reached. We have a long sales cycle (3 months) so I am doing some lead generation for her now so she doesn't come back into a cold territory. (That's just good business as it's in my best interest too!)
Thanks again for all the input. When I get a response from my employee, I'll update you all. I'm exhibiting our products at a trade show next week so will have intense busy periods followed by periods of profound boredom!
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Sept 23, 2016 15:26:41 GMT -5
Immature sounds right. That email is something casual you'd send to a friend, not your boss. I see it a lot with new hires who are not used to corporate culture. You don't tell someone who has been at the company 30 years that they lied to you in the middle of a meeting. You say something like "Oh, I guess I didn't understand what you were saying." The curtain rod solution sounds good, you are going above and beyond!
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plugginaway22
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Post by plugginaway22 on Sept 23, 2016 15:37:35 GMT -5
We are a medical office with 33 employees and have made accommodations for BF women many times. We have a fairly large supply closet with locking door, just put a table and chair in there and a laptop! It is amazing what our multi-tasking women can do while pumping! Also a 'Do Not Disturb' sign for door. We would find anyway we could to make it comfortable for our staff.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2016 15:38:26 GMT -5
I can't imagine going back to work after only 6 weeks.
Barbaric..
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 23, 2016 15:43:02 GMT -5
I can't imagine going back to work after only 6 weeks. Barbaric.. Oooh you went there!
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Sept 23, 2016 15:43:38 GMT -5
Holy crap, I completely agree with imawino
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janee
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Post by janee on Sept 23, 2016 15:53:18 GMT -5
I can't imagine going back to work after only 6 weeks. Barbaric.. It'll be 8 weeks and 2 days (she's going to start back on a Wednesday so it's not such a shock adjustment), but I understand what you're saying. Because the leave is unpaid, the start date is her choice and she needs the money.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Sept 23, 2016 15:55:18 GMT -5
I can't imagine going back to work after only 6 weeks. Barbaric.. What other things would you consider barbaric?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2016 16:25:07 GMT -5
I can't imagine going back to work after only 6 weeks. Barbaric.. It'll be 8 weeks and 2 days (she's going to start back on a Wednesday so it's not such a shock adjustment), but I understand what you're saying. Because the leave is unpaid, the start date is her choice and she needs the money.
UNPAID? double barbaric.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Sept 23, 2016 16:30:38 GMT -5
It'll be 8 weeks and 2 days (she's going to start back on a Wednesday so it's not such a shock adjustment), but I understand what you're saying. Because the leave is unpaid, the start date is her choice and she needs the money.
UNPAID? double barbaric. This woman has only been employed there for a few months. I actually find unpaid leave to be reasonable in this circumstance.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 23, 2016 16:46:30 GMT -5
The OP hired a pregnant woman, not that the woman told her she was but the OP found out and hired her anyway. Either the employee has amazing credentials or came cheap. I think the OP has been more than generous. I hope it doesn't come back to bite her in the ass since people are rarely grateful.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Sept 23, 2016 16:47:28 GMT -5
janee - not that my opinion matters much, but I think you should be given "employer of the year" award. After details that you posted about this employee, I think few would do for her what you are doing. And I am not even talking about "evil" YM world, I am talking about everywhere else.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Sept 23, 2016 16:48:09 GMT -5
It'll be 8 weeks and 2 days (she's going to start back on a Wednesday so it's not such a shock adjustment), but I understand what you're saying. Because the leave is unpaid, the start date is her choice and she needs the money.
UNPAID? double barbaric. I can't tell - are you being sarcastic?
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janee
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Post by janee on Sept 24, 2016 7:27:51 GMT -5
janee - not that my opinion matters much, but I think you should be given "employer of the year" award. After details that you posted about this employee, I think few would do for her what you are doing. And I am not even talking about "evil" YM world, I am talking about everywhere else. Re: Employer of the Year--I only wish that were true
I am a bit surprised at some of the comments. I was a little hesitant about posting because of the "hot" topics of nursing mom, etc. but I got the info I needed and some good suggestions that I think will be workable.
It is so interesting to see the range of answers about where people nursed--from in their car, bathroom, places with less privacy and all the way to private dedicated rooms. Also interesting is the differences in amount of time needed to nurse and number of times.
No answer yesterday so we'll see if I get anything this weekend before my business trip.
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