Opti
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Post by Opti on Sept 28, 2016 11:51:40 GMT -5
The consenus in the fashion world is shoes don't need to match your outfit. Coordinate your shoes or contrast them with your outfit/accessories. The days of your belt, shoes and purse having to match are LONG gone. Absolutely...I did make sure that my belt brings out the color of the cat on my sweater Great comment.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Sept 28, 2016 21:47:02 GMT -5
Yes, he was making fun of you and it was very unkind.
Do you think you need to improve how you dress in order to 'make it' with this company or was it just a one off? [br I'll admit I need to improve my wardrobe. I've never been fashionable. I don't think that hurt me at this company, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to get better. The rule of thumb that I was told for business dress for career ladder climbers is to dress like your boss's boss. Remember, there is fashionable. And there is classic fashion. Think Audrey Hepburn's LBD from Breakfast at Tiffany's. Classically stylish in 1961, still classically stylish in 2016, more than 50 years later.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Oct 3, 2016 1:49:33 GMT -5
"Hey boss. Wanna go shopping?" In your cheerleader voice, of course.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 3, 2016 10:26:40 GMT -5
[br I'll admit I need to improve my wardrobe. I've never been fashionable. I don't think that hurt me at this company, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to get better. The rule of thumb that I was told for business dress for career ladder climbers is to dress like your boss's boss. Remember, there is fashionable. And there is classic fashion. Think Audrey Hepburn's LBD from Breakfast at Tiffany's. Classically stylish in 1961, still classically stylish in 2016, more than 50 years later. Hm. Business attire - especially business casual - is tougher for women since there is a much wider range of styles available and since styles do change, sometimes quickly. There really is no such thing as classic fashion that 100% works even 10 years later, much less 50. Hepburn's dress would still work 50 years later because it's a single color with absolutely no distinguishing features, tailoring or even sleeves. There is nothing at all wrong with it - she looks great and someone wearing it today would look great - but that's only true because it's devoid of many of the basic elements that you'd need for a business environment, like sleeves. I suspect even the fabric, were we able to view it up close would be different than the fabrics and finishes that are used now, making it look possibly dated. I'm not picking on that dress, just pointing out that for business, your wardrobe isn't going to be composed of featureless clothes in monotone. That's OK. And it means things get more complicated as the details change over time. There definitely are pieces that are gorgeous and attractive for decades, but the idea you can choose well and wear your pants for 20 years without looking a bit off is naive.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Oct 3, 2016 11:15:43 GMT -5
The rule of thumb that I was told for business dress for career ladder climbers is to dress like your boss's boss. Remember, there is fashionable. And there is classic fashion. Think Audrey Hepburn's LBD from Breakfast at Tiffany's. Classically stylish in 1961, still classically stylish in 2016, more than 50 years later. Hm. Business attire - especially business casual - is tougher for women since there is a much wider range of styles available and since styles do change, sometimes quickly. There really is no such thing as classic fashion that 100% works even 10 years later, much less 50. Hepburn's dress would still work 50 years later because it's a single color with absolutely no distinguishing features, tailoring or even sleeves. There is nothing at all wrong with it - she looks great and someone wearing it today would look great - but that's only true because it's devoid of many of the basic elements that you'd need for a business environment, like sleeves. I suspect even the fabric, were we able to view it up close would be different than the fabrics and finishes that are used now, making it look possibly dated. I'm not picking on that dress, just pointing out that for business, your wardrobe isn't going to be composed of featureless clothes in monotone. That's OK. And it means things get more complicated as the details change over time. There definitely are pieces that are gorgeous and attractive for decades, but the idea you can choose well and wear your pants for 20 years without looking a bit off is naive. Yes, women's clothes cover wider variety than men's. But the same principles apply to women's business casual. Canary yellow will never be a classic color. Black, blue, khaki are. I think think a simple way to determine classic styles (though not necessarily colors) is to simply ask, would Jackie Kennedy have worn this? Or, to pick a more contemporary fashion icon who has a flair for classic styling, Princess Kate.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 3, 2016 11:21:47 GMT -5
"Hey boss. Wanna go shopping?" In your cheerleader voice, of course. Looking professional and polished at work is not equivalent to brainless teeny bopper, as appear to be inferring.
And not all cheerleaders are stupid vapid ornaments. Some are kickass athletes.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 3, 2016 11:37:34 GMT -5
Hm. Business attire - especially business casual - is tougher for women since there is a much wider range of styles available and since styles do change, sometimes quickly. There really is no such thing as classic fashion that 100% works even 10 years later, much less 50. Hepburn's dress would still work 50 years later because it's a single color with absolutely no distinguishing features, tailoring or even sleeves. There is nothing at all wrong with it - she looks great and someone wearing it today would look great - but that's only true because it's devoid of many of the basic elements that you'd need for a business environment, like sleeves. I suspect even the fabric, were we able to view it up close would be different than the fabrics and finishes that are used now, making it look possibly dated. I'm not picking on that dress, just pointing out that for business, your wardrobe isn't going to be composed of featureless clothes in monotone. That's OK. And it means things get more complicated as the details change over time. There definitely are pieces that are gorgeous and attractive for decades, but the idea you can choose well and wear your pants for 20 years without looking a bit off is naive. Yes, women's clothes cover wider variety than men's. But the same principles apply to women's business casual. Canary yellow will never be a classic color. Black, blue, khaki are. I think think a simple way to determine classic styles (though not necessarily colors) is to simply ask, would Jackie Kennedy have worn this? Or, to pick a more contemporary fashion icon who has a flair for classic styling, Princess Kate. But again, neither of the women in your example are dressing for business. They are dressed to be (if you're being generous) a "gracious hostess" or (if you're not being generous) arm candy. Dressing for a business environment - especially business casual with all its pitfalls - is very different than dressing to be ornamental. There are plenty of things Jackie O and Princess Kate wear that look gorgeous on them but are only gorgeous because they're stylish and will not be fashionable in 10 years or look great on them because they're both very slender, not because the clothes are timeless classics that will never go out of style. Both Jackie O and Kate have wonderful senses of personal style and almost always look gorgeous. But that doesn't mean that those styles will work for other women, that those styles will be considered acceptable in a decade or that those styles will work in a business environment.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Oct 3, 2016 11:46:48 GMT -5
[br I'll admit I need to improve my wardrobe. I've never been fashionable. I don't think that hurt me at this company, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to get better. The rule of thumb that I was told for business dress for career ladder climbers is to dress like your boss's boss. Remember, there is fashionable. And there is classic fashion. Think Audrey Hepburn's LBD from Breakfast at Tiffany's. Classically stylish in 1961, still classically stylish in 2016, more than 50 years later. Well, I'm fucked then because I can't afford a closet full of chanel...
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 3, 2016 11:50:23 GMT -5
BTW, the idea that women should look at how a major star and fashion icon dresses for a guide to how to dress for business is another example of how the standards for men and women are different. And by "different" I mean the standards are always much higher for women. For men, business casual and even business dressy is fairly straightforward and as long as the clothes aren't totally bizarre or smell from 20 feet away, the clothes that the men wear to work are a total nonissue. For women, their choices are endlessly picked apart and when they look for help, they're advised to simply dress like a movie star or a princess. Sure, no problem, that's totally reasonable...
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 3, 2016 11:53:37 GMT -5
[br I'll admit I need to improve my wardrobe. I've never been fashionable. I don't think that hurt me at this company, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to get better. The rule of thumb that I was told for business dress for career ladder climbers is to dress like your boss's boss. So I need to wear bicycle gear that leaves little to the imagination. Got it.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 3, 2016 11:55:08 GMT -5
BTW, the idea that women should look at how a major star and fashion icon dresses for a guide to how to dress for business is another example of how the standards for men and women are different. And by "different" I mean the standards are always much higher for women. For men, business casual and even business dressy is fairly straightforward and as long as the clothes aren't totally bizarre or smell from 20 feet away, the clothes that the men wear to work are a total nonissue. For women, their choices are endlessly picked apart and when they look for help, they're advised to simply dress like a movie star or a princess. Sure, no problem, that's totally reasonable... Or you get made fun of for asking how to look better.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Oct 3, 2016 11:59:38 GMT -5
BTW, the idea that women should look at how a major star and fashion icon dresses for a guide to how to dress for business is another example of how the standards for men and women are different. And by "different" I mean the standards are always much higher for women. For men, business casual and even business dressy is fairly straightforward and as long as the clothes aren't totally bizarre or smell from 20 feet away, the clothes that the men wear to work are a total nonissue. For women, their choices are endlessly picked apart and when they look for help, they're advised to simply dress like a movie star or a princess. Sure, no problem, that's totally reasonable... Not to mention, if a man is a bit rotund, he's just covered up by his suit and nobody seems to care if he looks good or not. He's got the standard uniform on, so it's all good. But a woman being on the bigger side has even more of a challenge with the fit of structured business attire. How it looks on you matters more with women.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Oct 3, 2016 12:00:45 GMT -5
BTW, the idea that women should look at how a major star and fashion icon dresses for a guide to how to dress for business is another example of how the standards for men and women are different. And by "different" I mean the standards are always much higher for women. For men, business casual and even business dressy is fairly straightforward and as long as the clothes aren't totally bizarre or smell from 20 feet away, the clothes that the men wear to work are a total nonissue. For women, their choices are endlessly picked apart and when they look for help, they're advised to simply dress like a movie star or a princess. Sure, no problem, that's totally reasonable... we're here to do a job, not be a model. Today I'm wearing a fitted, bright blue, 3/4 sleeve button down dress shirt, wide-ish leg gray pants with a dark plaid pattern, and black flats with a little buckle on the front. Stylish? Perhaps not. Appropriate for work? Damn skippy.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 3, 2016 12:03:14 GMT -5
BTW, the idea that women should look at how a major star and fashion icon dresses for a guide to how to dress for business is another example of how the standards for men and women are different. And by "different" I mean the standards are always much higher for women. For men, business casual and even business dressy is fairly straightforward and as long as the clothes aren't totally bizarre or smell from 20 feet away, the clothes that the men wear to work are a total nonissue. For women, their choices are endlessly picked apart and when they look for help, they're advised to simply dress like a movie star or a princess. Sure, no problem, that's totally reasonable... Or you get made fun of for asking how to look better. My sister and I were talking about the last Presidential debate and how unfairly Clinton's clothing and appearance have been criticized. It brought up the issue that since there haven't been many women at the upper levels of business or government, it's not like there are many examples to use for what's considered "good" women's power dressing in leadership positions. We both struggled to think of examples and when we'd think of one, we'd realize that the woman in the example was a different body type or her clothing wouldn't work for another reason. So women are stuck forging their own way and getting picked apart no matter what they choose.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Oct 3, 2016 12:07:00 GMT -5
BTW, the idea that women should look at how a major star and fashion icon dresses for a guide to how to dress for business is another example of how the standards for men and women are different. And by "different" I mean the standards are always much higher for women. For men, business casual and even business dressy is fairly straightforward and as long as the clothes aren't totally bizarre or smell from 20 feet away, the clothes that the men wear to work are a total nonissue. For women, their choices are endlessly picked apart and when they look for help, they're advised to simply dress like a movie star or a princess. Sure, no problem, that's totally reasonable... I think you under estimate the importance of being well dressed for men. Slobs generally don't get to important positions.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 3, 2016 12:13:36 GMT -5
BTW, the idea that women should look at how a major star and fashion icon dresses for a guide to how to dress for business is another example of how the standards for men and women are different. And by "different" I mean the standards are always much higher for women. For men, business casual and even business dressy is fairly straightforward and as long as the clothes aren't totally bizarre or smell from 20 feet away, the clothes that the men wear to work are a total nonissue. For women, their choices are endlessly picked apart and when they look for help, they're advised to simply dress like a movie star or a princess. Sure, no problem, that's totally reasonable... I think you under estimate the importance of being well dressed for men. Slobs generally don't get to important positions. I think you underestimate the number of times I've worked for men who were slobs. In fact one of my last corporate jobs, I did all the heavy lifting for the slobby guy I worked for. The CEO and the board all knew the man I worked for was incompetent and they were horrified at how he always looked like an "unmade bed" (that's the phrase the Chairman of the Board used when laughingly describing my boss). But this kind, 70+ year old man also assured me that in a few years I might have a shot at getting the title that was equal to the actual work the board knew I did. They just couldn't do it now, because after all, a slobby middle aged guy carried a lot more weight with investors and the press than a "cute little blond girl who looks even younger than she is." But maybe if I dressed like a princess that would have helped.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 3, 2016 12:15:18 GMT -5
BTW, the idea that women should look at how a major star and fashion icon dresses for a guide to how to dress for business is another example of how the standards for men and women are different. And by "different" I mean the standards are always much higher for women. For men, business casual and even business dressy is fairly straightforward and as long as the clothes aren't totally bizarre or smell from 20 feet away, the clothes that the men wear to work are a total nonissue. For women, their choices are endlessly picked apart and when they look for help, they're advised to simply dress like a movie star or a princess. Sure, no problem, that's totally reasonable... I think you under estimate the importance of being well dressed for men. Slobs generally don't get to important positions. Her point was it's fairly easy for men to be well dressed. Men's suits do change over time but for the most part a suit is a suit. The changes tend to be a lot more subtle if we are talking about your average suit. Meanwhile women's clothing and what is considered "well dressed" changes on a dime. Not only does it change every year but it changes every SEASON. I doubt most men are looking at each others blazers to determine if you are wearing a two button or a three button (I forgot which one is correct right now).
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 3, 2016 12:20:32 GMT -5
Or maybe if I had Givenchy custom design a dress for me - like they did for Audrey Hepburn in Breakfast at Tiffany's - and make sure all my poses were playful and coyly seductive, that would be more appropriate for a CFO? I'm sure that if I just wore something like this, the board would have been able to overlook the fact that as a "cute little blond girl" (according to the chairman of the board), I didn't "look the part"... Edited to add - I just noticed that Hepburn is wearing a tiara. And - wait for it - so does Princess Kate! Maybe that's what we need to wear to be properly dressed... how could I have missed it all these years?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Oct 3, 2016 12:24:06 GMT -5
I think you under estimate the importance of being well dressed for men. Slobs generally don't get to important positions. Her point was it's fairly easy for men to be well dressed. Men's suits do change over time but for the most part a suit is a suit. The changes tend to be a lot more subtle if we are talking about your average suit. Meanwhile women's clothing and what is considered "well dressed" changes on a dime. Not only does it change every year but it changes every SEASON. I doubt most men are looking at each others blazers to determine if you are wearing a two button or a three button (I forgot which one is correct right now). men tend to not give two shits either way. The OP's situation is different but 9 times out of 10 it's women criticizing other women.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 3, 2016 12:26:10 GMT -5
BTW, the idea that women should look at how a major star and fashion icon dresses for a guide to how to dress for business is another example of how the standards for men and women are different. And by "different" I mean the standards are always much higher for women. For men, business casual and even business dressy is fairly straightforward and as long as the clothes aren't totally bizarre or smell from 20 feet away, the clothes that the men wear to work are a total nonissue. For women, their choices are endlessly picked apart and when they look for help, they're advised to simply dress like a movie star or a princess. Sure, no problem, that's totally reasonable... I think you under estimate the importance of being well dressed for men. Slobs generally don't get to important positions. As a man, if you ask how to dress appropriately for business casual, most people will blithely say "khakis and an ironed button down shirt"; if you ask how to dress appropriately for more formal business, most people will blithely say "suit and tie." It's pretty much that simple. Are there khakis, suits and shirts that look better than others? Sure. But for the most part, 90%+ of khakis, shirts and suits will fall within the range of acceptable that they receive no comment or further examination. It's pretty simple stuff. The opposite is true for women. 90%+ of clothes are not going to be appropriate for business. Not only that, but it's harder to find the simple things, like khakis that fit in a way that is appropriate and don't invite comment or scrutiny. And the fact that you, who have been in business - couldn't come up with a better fashion recommendation than Hepburn (wearing a custom made designer evening dress from 50+ years ago) and a princess known for being a major fashion icon - demonstrates exactly the problem women are facing.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 3, 2016 12:30:07 GMT -5
Depends on your job what is appropriate clothing. I find it hard to believe that someone seriously has no clue how to dress . Worse case scenario, look around you.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 3, 2016 12:33:36 GMT -5
Her point was it's fairly easy for men to be well dressed. Men's suits do change over time but for the most part a suit is a suit. The changes tend to be a lot more subtle if we are talking about your average suit. Meanwhile women's clothing and what is considered "well dressed" changes on a dime. Not only does it change every year but it changes every SEASON. I doubt most men are looking at each others blazers to determine if you are wearing a two button or a three button (I forgot which one is correct right now). men tend to not give two shits either way. The OP's situation is different but 9 times out of 10 it's women criticizing other women. Not true. Women are more likely to voice their opinion about clothing out loud. Men don't talk about clothing, but they sure as heck do form opinions about whether the women they work with look "good", "bad", "appropriate", "slobby", "cute", "unprofessional" etc. Men don't talk about details like styles or trends but they do notice appearance and judge. Just because they aren't talking about it - or more likely just not talking about it to you - doesn't mean they're not noticing.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 3, 2016 12:33:48 GMT -5
BTW, the idea that women should look at how a major star and fashion icon dresses for a guide to how to dress for business is another example of how the standards for men and women are different. And by "different" I mean the standards are always much higher for women. For men, business casual and even business dressy is fairly straightforward and as long as the clothes aren't totally bizarre or smell from 20 feet away, the clothes that the men wear to work are a total nonissue. For women, their choices are endlessly picked apart and when they look for help, they're advised to simply dress like a movie star or a princess. Sure, no problem, that's totally reasonable... Or you get made fun of for asking how to look better. That struck a chord with me because I did that in another thread some time ago. I said something about not believing how many women needed to ask how to dress themselves. I realize the problem is me, not them, because I don't care what anyone thinks about how I dress. Some people do...some people HAVE to. So, I apologize for that remark. It wasn't nice. I suppose if someone at work came to me and made it clear I wasn't dressed appropriately, I'd have to go ask around because, being me, I'd have no clue what was wrong with the way I was dressed.
The more likely scenario is that I'd say, "Don't like it? Too bad." Because I can. Not everyone has that luxury.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Oct 3, 2016 12:37:16 GMT -5
men tend to not give two shits either way. The OP's situation is different but 9 times out of 10 it's women criticizing other women. Not true. Women are more likely to voice their opinion about clothing out loud. Men don't talk about clothing, but they sure as heck do form opinions about whether the women they work with look "good", "bad", "appropriate", "slobby", "cute", "unprofessional" etc. Men don't talk about details like styles or trends but they do notice appearance and judge. Just because they aren't talking about it - or more likely just not talking about it to you - doesn't mean they're not noticing. that's actually worse, because appearance could just be the person's face and general body shape. There could be a plus sized woman with impeccable taste who knows how to dress for her body, and she could still be thought of as "sloppy" or whatever. I admit I wasn't a fan of the capsule wardrobe idea, but now I take it all back. Uniforms for all!!!
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Oct 3, 2016 20:31:46 GMT -5
I think you under estimate the importance of being well dressed for men. Slobs generally don't get to important positions. As a man, if you ask how to dress appropriately for business casual, most people will blithely say "khakis and an ironed button down shirt"; if you ask how to dress appropriately for more formal business, most people will blithely say "suit and tie." It's pretty much that simple. Are there khakis, suits and shirts that look better than others? Sure. But for the most part, 90%+ of khakis, shirts and suits will fall within the range of acceptable that they receive no comment or further examination. It's pretty simple stuff. The opposite is true for women. 90%+ of clothes are not going to be appropriate for business. Not only that, but it's harder to find the simple things, like khakis that fit in a way that is appropriate and don't invite comment or scrutiny. And the fact that you, who have been in business - couldn't come up with a better fashion recommendation than Hepburn (wearing a custom made designer evening dress from 50+ years ago) and a princess known for being a major fashion icon - demonstrates exactly the problem women are facing. Gee, I seem to have failed in making my initial point. That classic styling remains fashionable for decades. You might also note that some of the princess stylish threads come from places such as the Gap. You don't need designer everything to be fashionably stylish. You do the princess style sense an injustice when you attribute her status as a fashion icon only to designer dresses and coats.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 3, 2016 20:38:33 GMT -5
As a man, if you ask how to dress appropriately for business casual, most people will blithely say "khakis and an ironed button down shirt"; if you ask how to dress appropriately for more formal business, most people will blithely say "suit and tie." It's pretty much that simple. Are there khakis, suits and shirts that look better than others? Sure. But for the most part, 90%+ of khakis, shirts and suits will fall within the range of acceptable that they receive no comment or further examination. It's pretty simple stuff. The opposite is true for women. 90%+ of clothes are not going to be appropriate for business. Not only that, but it's harder to find the simple things, like khakis that fit in a way that is appropriate and don't invite comment or scrutiny. And the fact that you, who have been in business - couldn't come up with a better fashion recommendation than Hepburn (wearing a custom made designer evening dress from 50+ years ago) and a princess known for being a major fashion icon - demonstrates exactly the problem women are facing. Gee, I seem to have failed in making my initial point. That classic styling remains fashionable for decades. I didn't miss your point; you are missing mine. Please post pictures of 5 items of women's business wear that have remained fashionable for decades.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 3, 2016 20:53:30 GMT -5
As far as the two presidential candidates, they both dress like shit. With all their money they could dress better but both obviously don't see the need. I always thought condoleeza rice dressed classy.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 4, 2016 4:26:00 GMT -5
Gee, I seem to have failed in making my initial point. That classic styling remains fashionable for decades. I didn't miss your point; you are missing mine. Please post pictures of 5 items of women's business wear that have remained fashionable for decades. I can't post pictures but a tailored blouse/shirt, a blazer (I have one that is at least 20 years old and still looks great), black or dark grey slacks, black flats or low heeled pumps. Also, a classic sweater set. I have a fair amount of them in basic colors.
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