Religous sexual discrimination in NYC?

[Value Buy]

Alive and well in 2016
You decide.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/pool-rules-no-running-no-eating-or-drinking-no-men/ar-AAhNeKd?li=BBnbfcL

[Deleted]

This isn't a religious thing. It's a gender thing. If I was scheduling, I'd set some men only hours too, to see if that attracted any swimmers. 

[billisonboard]

Unless there is a ban on private swimming pools in the city, a non-governmental solution to meeting the needs of the women involved exists. I see an effort to make that happen as the way forward in this tricky little situation.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jun 30, 2016 8:15:28 GMT -5 oped said:

This isn't a religious thing. It's a gender thing. If I was scheduling, I'd set some men only hours too, to see if that attracted any swimmers. 

It clearly is a religious thing, and the pool does have men-only hours.

[Green Eyed Lady]

It's beyond me why a "policy" would be needed anyway. It would seem common decency and respect for one another might settle the issue. Everyone is provided for here.  Everyone. 

If I knew there were a few hours a week Muslim men wished to exercise without women present, I wouldn't demand to be able to strip naked and jump into the middle of the pool because I have respect for others, even if that means I might have to go to the corner Starbucks for 15 minutes until they are finished. 

[Virgil Showlion]

Jun 30, 2016 10:48:06 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

It's beyond me why a "policy" would be needed anyway. It would seem common decency and respect for one another might settle the issue. Everyone is provided for here.  Everyone.

Equality trumps decency, respect, and practicality, remember?

Maybe they can just open the pool an hour later Monday, Wednesday, Friday and secretly let the Jewish women in an hour early.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Jun 30, 2016 11:07:41 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jun 30, 2016 10:48:06 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

It's beyond me why a "policy" would be needed anyway. It would seem common decency and respect for one another might settle the issue. Everyone is provided for here.  Everyone.

Equality trumps decency, respect, and practicality, remember?

Maybe they can just open the pool an hour later Monday, Wednesday, Friday and secretly let the Jewish women in an hour early.

No inequality exists. It's just some people can't do what they want whenever they want. I blame it on their raising.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jun 30, 2016 11:14:47 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Jun 30, 2016 11:07:41 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Equality trumps decency, respect, and practicality, remember?

Maybe they can just open the pool an hour later Monday, Wednesday, Friday and secretly let the Jewish women in an hour early.

No inequality exists. It's just some people can't do what they want whenever they want. I blame it on their raising.

"Equality" is synonymous with people doing what they want whenever they want when religious accommodation is on the other side of the scales. If it was something else on the other side, such as an hour for the physically disabled, or an hour for special needs children, or a seniors' hour, etc., then it ceases to be an issue of "equality" and becomes an issue of decency, respect, and practicality.

Don't tell me that after 15 Oregon bakery threads and two topless nudity threads you still don't get how "equality" works.

[zibazinski]

I now wonder if my old public pool that used to have adult swim for ten minutes every fifty minutes is still allowed to?

[Deleted]

It's good kids have a poor lobby or I'd probably be forced to give up adult swim time.

[Deleted]

Jinx Zib!

[Deleted]

Jun 30, 2016 10:38:49 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jun 30, 2016 8:15:28 GMT -5 oped said:

This isn't a religious thing. It's a gender thing. If I was scheduling, I'd set some men only hours too, to see if that attracted any swimmers. 

It clearly is a religious thing, and the pool does have men-only hours.

No. They aren't allowing one religion. They are allowing one gender. 

And from the article "The pool has no male-only hours, and some Hasidic men swim during the hours that are open to all genders."

[zibazinski]

Which they are not supposed to.

[weltschmerz]

Jun 30, 2016 8:09:44 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Alive and well in 2016
You decide.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/pool-rules-no-running-no-eating-or-drinking-no-men/ar-AAhNeKd?li=BBnbfcL

Yes.
Our universities had changed the pool and gym schedules to accommodate only Muslim women during certain times of the day.
Now male students, who paid the exact same activity fees, are unable to swim or workout between classes.
I don't believe in catering to superstitions. If your particular deity deems it immoral to be seen by men, why should our male students pay the price?
It's ridiculous.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Jun 30, 2016 11:54:27 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jun 30, 2016 11:14:47 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

No inequality exists. It's just some people can't do what they want whenever they want. I blame it on their raising.

"Equality" is synonymous with people doing what they want whenever they want when religious accommodation is on the other side of the scales. If it was something else on the other side, such as an hour for the physically disabled, or an hour for special needs children, or a seniors' hour, etc., then it ceases to be an issue of "equality" and becomes an issue of decency, respect, and practicality.

Don't tell me that after 15 Oregon bakery threads and two topless nudity threads you still don't get how "equality" works.

I get how some people say it works - but that's not how it works.  There is no inequality in this situation. Everyone has a chance to swim. Everyone. Even the one case out of 1,000,000,0000,000,000. Everyone. Nobody is told they aren't allowed to swim. There is no inequality here.  

Yes. Boys are being told that for a small section of time, they aren't allowed to swim with girls. They aren't being told they can never swim with girls.  They can swim with girls till their little weenies wrinkle - just not between 10:30 am and 11:30 a.m. on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays.    There is no inequality here. None.

ETA:  From what someone said here, girls are not allowed to swim with boys for some periods either.  I cant' read that because my link isn't working.

[Deleted]

I'm perfectly ok with setting aside certain hours for certain groups. I like to swim laps when people aren't playing in the same water. Most pools have certain hours for general pop and then times for other things. I don't see the problem. As I said, I personally would probably set up both women only and men only hours.

[Tennesseer]

The very limited hours dedicated at two NYC pools for Hasidic women's use doesn't bother me.  It's only two pools out of 30 plus public pools.   During the summer months most everyone wants to be in an outdoor pool anyway.  If the Hasidic women are using the indoor pool three times a week on a Monday through Friday schedule, that's okay with me.  Weekend use of an indoor might be an issue during the non-summer months as kids are out of school and may wish to use the pool regardless of gender.

But if some are going to complain it's some type of religious and/or sexual discrimination, I wonder about something.  I often see posts on Facebook (and occasionally here) from some of the more conservative posters complain about Muslims not assimilating into American culture.  That Muslims need to give up their Muslim traditions like wearing scarves over their heads for modesty and other traditional Arab/Muslim clothing and rituals to become Americans.  Why is it that no one has has a problem with the religious dress and traditions of Hasidic men and women and not demand they change their modest dress too?  We don't say boo about that.

Why is it okay to have rabbinical courts (beth din) here in the United States and where civil issues (business contracts, divorce, conversion to Judaism and whether one is Jewish, and nothing criminal) are decided and based upon Jewish religious law but not okay if Muslims want to have Sharia law decide the same civil matters (again, not criminal) among themselves in the U.S. just like the rabbinical courts?  Outside of Muslim majority countries where Sharia law is the only law allowed and criminal and civil cases decided, if a Jewish or Muslim citizen does not wish to be a plaintiff or defendant in a rabbinical or Sharia court civil case, they have a right to have their case heard in a country's civil court system.

Is everyone okay with rabbinical courts here in the United States?  Personally, it does not bother me.  And it wouldn't bother me if Sharia courts heard the same issues as are heard in rabbinical courts.  There are limits in what could be heard and decided in these types of courts and their religious laws would not determining factor in our civil court system decisions.

[weltschmerz]

Jun 30, 2016 11:54:27 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jun 30, 2016 11:14:47 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

No inequality exists. It's just some people can't do what they want whenever they want. I blame it on their raising.

"Equality" is synonymous with people doing what they want whenever they want when religious accommodation is on the other side of the scales. If it was something else on the other side, such as an hour for the physically disabled, or an hour for special needs children, or a seniors' hour, etc., then it ceases to be an issue of "equality" and becomes an issue of decency, respect, and practicality.

Don't tell me that after 15 Oregon bakery threads and two topless nudity threads you still don't get how "equality" works.

That's completely different. People don't CHOOSE to be disabled or old or special needs, unlike religious dogma.

[weltschmerz]

From the link....

Gripping a yellow pool noodle, Miriam Kahn, 77, treaded water in a pink dress and a pink ruffled swimming cap on Wednesday morning. “In our religion, women don’t go to no beach, don’t go to no movies, nothing,” she said in a thick Israeli accent. “Can’t we have this something?”

Oh, boo freaking hoo! It's your choice to live by 7th century rules.

[Value Buy]

Jun 30, 2016 8:15:28 GMT -5 oped said:

This isn't a religious thing. It's a gender thing. If I was scheduling, I'd set some men only hours too, to see if that attracted any swimmers. 

I disagree with this, but obviously someone complained about it and it will probably be stopped.
Since it was set for a religious group, for females following a religious sect, I would think it has to go.

Myself, I have no problem with it, but there seems to be an overwhelming consensus that government policy cannot favor religion.
Nativity sets and Christian crosses are out of the park system, so all religion has to be out of the park system

[Tennesseer]

Jun 30, 2016 16:05:31 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Jun 30, 2016 15:45:20 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

I disagree with this, but obviously someone complained about it and it will probably be stopped.
Since it was set for a religious group, for females following a religious sect, I would think it has to go.

Myself, I have no problem with it, but there seems to be an overwhelming consensus that government policy cannot favor religion.
Nativity sets and Christian crosses are out of the park system, so all religion has to be out of the park system

Actually if non-Hasidic women were allowed than this would be no different than an adults only swim time which is very common.  

A quote from the opening post:

"Only 45 swimmers at a time are permitted at the pool in Williamsburg. Most days, Ms. Kahn said, there is a line of women waiting their turn, including the occasional Muslim woman. On Wednesday, the lanes were full of women in calf-length, denim-colored dresses with three-quarter sleeves. The only thing that vaguely identified the outfits as seaworthy was a palm tree or a beach ball embroidered on the chest."

And I agree with you. There are kid swim times and adult swim times. The men and the women, the boy and the girls, all get a chance to swim at this pool.

[resolution]

I am not comfortable with women only swim times unless there are corresponding men only swim times. It seems unfair to have unequal times set aside at a tax funded facility for religious reasons.

It doesn't bother me enough to complain or raise a stink over it, but since it has been raised I tend to agree.

[whoisjohngalt]

I know it's not the same thing, but my parents live across from a mosque.  Every Friday afternoon there are police cars (sometimes sheriff, sometimes city police) directing the traffic and staying for the times of the prayers.    I don't know why Friday afternoons, but it gets very very busy there.

This whole separation of church and state is not existent.  Govt gets involved in religion all the time.  I find it hardly to be news.

As far as calling everything "discrimination"- can we please save that for something more serious than 2 hrs of swimming time?

[Tennesseer]

Jun 30, 2016 18:03:08 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

I know it's not the same thing, but my parents live across from a mosque.  Every Friday afternoon there are police cars (sometimes sheriff, sometimes city police) directing the traffic and staying for the times of the prayers.    I don't know why Friday afternoons, but it gets very very busy there.

This whole separation of church and state is not existent.  Govt gets involved in religion all the time.  I find it hardly to be news.

As far as calling everything "discrimination"- can we please save that for something more serious than 2 hrs of swimming time?

Jumu'ah is a congregational prayer that Muslims hold every Friday, just after noon instead of the Zuhr prayer. Muslims pray ordinarily five times each day according to the sun's sky path regardless of time zones.

Jumu'ah

[cronewitch]

Everyone should be able to use the pools that are tax funded if they obey the rules. What bothered me was more the swim outfits and closing the curtains so they can't be watched. Most pools require swimsuits so you can't swim in shorts and tank top for example. I think that is so less fabric and soap in the pool so that could be a problem but probably not. I hate being watched in the pool so wish they didn't have viewing windows so just leave the curtains closed.
Our pools have hours for kids swim lessons, aqua aerobics and adult swim so if they have enough demand for gender only swims they should do that people will figure out when there time is. So if more than 45 men want men only swims like the more than 45 woman want women only swims they should get one. If only 2-3 men want a men only swim then not even if they women get one. If only a handful of woman wanted a woman only swim they shouldn't get one either. Tossing 45 kids out of a pool so a hand full of adults can swim without children shouldn't happen either. The kids should be made to actually swim instead of playing in the pool maybe if they are disruptive but not kicked out by age.
We have a very high percentage of Muslims in the neighborhood of the public pool a community center for them is a few blocks away. They should have at least an hour or two a week to use the pool. I think daytime hours are for the local school children so give them the hours before school. It would be nice for them if they had a pool in their community center but they are in a poor area so may not be able to afford one.

[Deleted]

Jun 30, 2016 10:38:49 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jun 30, 2016 8:15:28 GMT -5 oped said:

This isn't a religious thing. It's a gender thing. If I was scheduling, I'd set some men only hours too, to see if that attracted any swimmers. 

It clearly is a religious thing, and the pool does have men-only hours.

It does? The article says it doesn't:

The pool has no male-only hours


(fourth paragraph, second sentence)

[gregintenn]

Jun 30, 2016 12:19:37 GMT -5 oped said:

I'm perfectly ok with setting aside certain hours for certain groups. I like to swim laps when people aren't playing in the same water. Most pools have certain hours for general pop and then times for other things. I don't see the problem. As I said, I personally would probably set up both women only and men only hours.

This is different from "men's" and women's" restrooms how?

If tomorrow I decided to identify as a woman, would I be allowed to swim with the females?

[Miss Tequila]

To expand on Gregs comment, would a genetic male who identifies as a female be allowed?

[gregintenn]

Jun 30, 2016 21:12:01 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

To expand on Gregs comment, would a genetic male who identifies as a female be allowed?

I'll go one further....if we can all shit together, why in hell can't we all swim together?

[Deleted]

Jun 30, 2016 12:25:35 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Jun 30, 2016 11:54:27 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

"Equality" is synonymous with people doing what they want whenever they want when religious accommodation is on the other side of the scales. If it was something else on the other side, such as an hour for the physically disabled, or an hour for special needs children, or a seniors' hour, etc., then it ceases to be an issue of "equality" and becomes an issue of decency, respect, and practicality.

Don't tell me that after 15 Oregon bakery threads and two topless nudity threads you still don't get how "equality" works.

That's completely different. People don't CHOOSE to be disabled or old or special needs, unlike religious dogma.

Yup. That.