Religous sexual discrimination in NYC?

[Deleted]

Jun 30, 2016 21:15:45 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

Jun 30, 2016 21:12:01 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

To expand on Gregs comment, would a genetic male who identifies as a female be allowed?

I'll go one further....if we can all shit together, why in hell can't we all swim together?

More like if we can all choose with whom we shit, why can't we choose with whom we swim?

[gregintenn]

Jun 30, 2016 21:20:29 GMT -5 oped said:

Jun 30, 2016 21:15:45 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

I'll go one further....if we can all shit together, why in hell can't we all swim together?

More like if we can all choose with whom we shit, why can't we choose with whom we swim?

I'm not following your logic. You can't keep a guy out of the women's restroom, yet you can keep him out of a public pool.

[Miss Tequila]

Jun 30, 2016 21:20:29 GMT -5 oped said:

Jun 30, 2016 21:15:45 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

I'll go one further....if we can all shit together, why in hell can't we all swim together?

More like if we can all choose with whom we shit, why can't we choose with whom we swim?

But you are ok with genetic males who identify as female using rhe women's room, right? So are you ok with the Caitlyn jenners of the world using this pool with the women?

[Tennesseer]

Jun 30, 2016 21:37:58 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Jun 30, 2016 21:20:29 GMT -5 oped said:

More like if we can all choose with whom we shit, why can't we choose with whom we swim?

But you are ok with genetic males who identify as female using rhe women's room, right? So are you ok with the Caitlyn jenners of the world using this pool with the women?

If the Jenners of the world wanted to swim with the other women and swim "in dresses, some with long sleeves. One paddled in thick black tights". And "Inside the locker room, wigs sat upside down on window ledges and benches while their owners swam with heads under ruffled swimming caps or knotted silk scarves" or "calf-length, denim-colored dresses with three-quarter sleeves. The only thing that vaguely identified the outfits as seaworthy was a palm tree or a beach ball embroidered on the chest", why not.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jun 30, 2016 21:04:48 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

Jun 30, 2016 12:19:37 GMT -5 oped said:

I'm perfectly ok with setting aside certain hours for certain groups. I like to swim laps when people aren't playing in the same water. Most pools have certain hours for general pop and then times for other things. I don't see the problem. As I said, I personally would probably set up both women only and men only hours.

This is different from "men's" and women's" restrooms how?

If tomorrow I decided to identify as a woman, would I be allowed to swim with the females?

There's your loophole.

They tell you to get out, just tell them you identify as a woman. Problem solved.

If they tell you to get out anyway, sue them for $65 million in emotional damages. Cities have deep pockets.

[zibazinski]

Fortunately we still have men's rooms and women's rooms, even in Target. I haven't been bothered by some guy using the ladies room pretending he is one. I'm
More inclined to be the one using the men's room bcuz I'm sick of waiting in line at the ladies!!

[Miss Tequila]

Jun 30, 2016 21:49:22 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jun 30, 2016 21:37:58 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

But you are ok with genetic males who identify as female using rhe women's room, right? So are you ok with the Caitlyn jenners of the world using this pool with the women?

If the Jenners of the world wanted to swim with the other women and swim "in dresses, some with long sleeves. One paddled in thick black tights". And "Inside the locker room, wigs sat upside down on window ledges and benches while their owners swam with heads under ruffled swimming caps or knotted silk scarves" or "calf-length, denim-colored dresses with three-quarter sleeves. The only thing that vaguely identified the outfits as seaworthy was a palm tree or a beach ball embroidered on the chest", why not.

The pool doesn't mandate that attire for the pool. Im a female so if I wanted to go I could. I could assure you I would not be wearing those crazy outfits

So can a trans woman go (or trans man? Im forgetting which way the sex goes with the name).

[Kolt!]

SHOCK.

Someone has to bring up transgender people in this thread. Funnily enough it's a person that has complained about it being brought up too much elsewhere. If certain people are sick of people talking about "transgender" maybe they shouldn't bring it up themselves. 

Are they expecting to ask questions, and make snide remarks about transgender people and then not expect people to jump in to say something about it? 

This can be a debate about if it's discrimination or not against "men" without having to ask about transgender people. 

I'm just going to say this for a difference, swimming is not a necessity, going to the bathroom is. The laws for bathroom uses and transgender people make it impossible for some trans people to not be able to use the men's restroom or the woman's restroom. Until the world starts adapting to intersex people and accepting to make a "non-binary" gender transgender and intersex people need a place to pee and we deserve the right to choose where that is until the united states starts giving us a bathroom. we don't deserve the health issues just because society wants to tell us what "gender" we are or deny that the world isn't just male and female.

Personally, if the world was to make 'agender' a third "gender" and agender people had a place to go they wouldn't be forced to "disrupt certain people's views on where they should pee" there's over 44 million transgender people in the united states, if not more, that's not including intersex. Statistics recently came out with the fact that there's actually now .06% transgenders living in the United States and that's not everyone as many probably haven't came out. That's ACTUALLY more transgender people then the amount of people living in Canada. Canada has about 35 million people living there. The United States has 44 million transgender people. 

But a lot of people want to not allow agender to be allowed and keep it male and female but in the same breath don't want transgender people using their bathroom. 

--
I'm not going full out but I personally don't believe this is discrimination. Men aren't banned and never served at this public pool. They just have to come at another time. Personally, rather I was told to come back after these two hours as I'm transgender, or because I'm a man I'd be okay with that. They're not telling me I can never swim in this pool. They're not telling me it's wrong and their religion disagrees with me because i'm a man, or because i'm trans they just have this time slot for a specific set of people but i'm more then welcome to come later. 

[Virgil Showlion]

Jun 30, 2016 21:15:47 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Jun 30, 2016 12:25:35 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

That's completely different. People don't CHOOSE to be disabled or old or special needs, unlike religious dogma.

Yup. That.

Another exception? Who'd've thunk!?

I should claim I'm mentally predisposed to inventing stupid exceptions--by no fault of my own--and get an hour at the pool all to myself.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jun 30, 2016 22:01:27 GMT -5 Kolt! said:

Statistics recently came out with the fact that there's actually now .06% transgenders living in the United States and that's not everyone as many probably haven't came out. That's ACTUALLY more transgender people then the amount of people living in Canada. Canada has about 35 million people living there. The United States has 44 million transgender people.

Not that this is in any way relevant to the thread topic, but .06% of 315 million people is 187,000, not 44 million.

[Kolt!]

The question was... "is this discrimination against men?"

not... "does this include transgender woman" 

And in recent news in Pakistan they actually are now allowing transgender people that pass to marry, to a transgender man can even have the same burial/memorial when they pass away as a cisgender man now. They can now identify and do anything that a cisgender male has done if they have had the proper surgeries same with the woman. I wouldn't be so surprised if these woman didn't care so much if a transwoman was in the pool with them as long as they had the proper surgeries. They're still treated REALLY poorly in Pakistan but they're making strides and in some ways once they've had the proper surgeries they're allowed to do more then some transgender people are here...quite sad. "More as in what there country allows as far as rights."  

I'm sure they don't want a dick in the pool but Pakistan and actually many Muslim leaders around the United States have become more and more accepting of the LGBTQ community. The Muslim communities where I"m at are actually a lot more accepting then the churches around where I"m at. 

Either way if a woman has had surgery and no longer has a dick or boobs there's a GREAT chance the woman in that pool won't even know. 

And it's a lot harder for a non transwoman to enter a pool because a dick showing and no boobs is pretty obvious. 

[Miss Tequila]

Jun 30, 2016 22:01:27 GMT -5 Kolt! said:

SHOCK.

Someone has to bring up transgender people in this thread. Funnily enough it's a person that has complained about it being brought up too much elsewhere. If certain people are sick of people talking about "transgender" maybe they shouldn't bring it up themselves. 

Are they expecting to ask questions, and make snide remarks about transgender people and then not expect people to jump in to say something about it? 

This can be a debate about if it's discrimination or not against "men" without having to ask about transgender people. 

I'm just going to say this for a difference, swimming is not a necessity, going to the bathroom is. The laws for bathroom uses and transgender people make it impossible for some trans people to not be able to use the men's restroom or the woman's restroom. Until the world starts adapting to intersex people and accepting to make a "non-binary" gender transgender and intersex people need a place to pee and we deserve the right to choose where that is until the united states starts giving us a bathroom. we don't deserve the health issues just because society wants to tell us what "gender" we are or deny that the world isn't just male and female.

Personally, if the world was to make 'agender' a third "gender" and agender people had a place to go they wouldn't be forced to "disrupt certain people's views on where they should pee" there's over 44 million transgender people in the united states, if not more, that's not including intersex. Statistics recently came out with the fact that there's actually now .06% transgenders living in the United States and that's not everyone as many probably haven't came out. That's ACTUALLY more transgender people then the amount of people living in Canada. Canada has about 35 million people living there. The United States has 44 million transgender people. 

But a lot of people want to not allow agender to be allowed and keep it male and female but in the same breath don't want transgender people using their bathroom. 

--
I'm not going full out but I personally don't believe this is discrimination. Men aren't banned and never served at this public pool. They just have to come at another time. Personally, rather I was told to come back after these two hours as I'm transgender, or because I'm a man I'd be okay with that. They're not telling me I can never swim in this pool. They're not telling me it's wrong and their religion disagrees with me because i'm a man, or because i'm trans they just have this time slot for a specific set of people but i'm more then welcome to come later. 

should a trans woman be allowed in the pool?

[Miss Tequila]

Jun 30, 2016 22:13:31 GMT -5 Kolt! said:

The question was... "is this discrimination against men?"

not... "does this include transgender woman" 

And in recent news in Pakistan they actually are now allowing transgender people that pass to marry, to a transgender man can even have the same burial/memorial when they pass away as a cisgender man now. They can now identify and do anything that a cisgender male has done if they have had the proper surgeries same with the woman. I wouldn't be so surprised if these woman didn't care so much if a transwoman was in the pool with them as long as they had the proper surgeries. They're still treated REALLY poorly in Pakistan but they're making strides and in some ways once they've had the proper surgeries they're allowed to do more then some transgender people are here...quite sad. "More as in what there country allows as far as rights."  

I'm sure they don't want a dick in the pool but Pakistan and actually many Muslim leaders around the United States have become more and more accepting of the LGBTQ community. The Muslim communities where I"m at are actually a lot more accepting then the churches around where I"m at. 

Either way if a woman has had surgery and no longer has a dick or boobs there's a GREAT chance the woman in that pool won't even know. 

And it's a lot harder for a non transwoman to enter a pool because a dick showing and no boobs is pretty obvious. 

But saying a certain religion doesn't want a transferable in their pool with women makes it about religion. The prior poatwrs said this wasn't about religion

[Kolt!]

Jun 30, 2016 22:12:06 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jun 30, 2016 22:01:27 GMT -5 Kolt! said:

Statistics recently came out with the fact that there's actually now .06% transgenders living in the United States and that's not everyone as many probably haven't came out. That's ACTUALLY more transgender people then the amount of people living in Canada. Canada has about 35 million people living there. The United States has 44 million transgender people.

Not that this is in any way relevant to the thread topic, but .06% of 315 million people is 187,000, not 44 million.

I guess the article I read today was wrong. I can't do math skills but those weren't my own. But it was a hot topic, the articles on twitter today were all saying this. And everyone was tweeting these statistics. Either way 44 million people or not, 187,000 people or not, 5,000 people or not the United States needs to start adapting to transgender people and intersex. 

[Kolt!]

Jun 30, 2016 22:16:29 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Jun 30, 2016 22:01:27 GMT -5 Kolt! said:

SHOCK.

Someone has to bring up transgender people in this thread. Funnily enough it's a person that has complained about it being brought up too much elsewhere. If certain people are sick of people talking about "transgender" maybe they shouldn't bring it up themselves. 

Are they expecting to ask questions, and make snide remarks about transgender people and then not expect people to jump in to say something about it? 

This can be a debate about if it's discrimination or not against "men" without having to ask about transgender people. 

I'm just going to say this for a difference, swimming is not a necessity, going to the bathroom is. The laws for bathroom uses and transgender people make it impossible for some trans people to not be able to use the men's restroom or the woman's restroom. Until the world starts adapting to intersex people and accepting to make a "non-binary" gender transgender and intersex people need a place to pee and we deserve the right to choose where that is until the united states starts giving us a bathroom. we don't deserve the health issues just because society wants to tell us what "gender" we are or deny that the world isn't just male and female.

Personally, if the world was to make 'agender' a third "gender" and agender people had a place to go they wouldn't be forced to "disrupt certain people's views on where they should pee" there's over 44 million transgender people in the united states, if not more, that's not including intersex. Statistics recently came out with the fact that there's actually now .06% transgenders living in the United States and that's not everyone as many probably haven't came out. That's ACTUALLY more transgender people then the amount of people living in Canada. Canada has about 35 million people living there. The United States has 44 million transgender people. 

But a lot of people want to not allow agender to be allowed and keep it male and female but in the same breath don't want transgender people using their bathroom. 

--
I'm not going full out but I personally don't believe this is discrimination. Men aren't banned and never served at this public pool. They just have to come at another time. Personally, rather I was told to come back after these two hours as I'm transgender, or because I'm a man I'd be okay with that. They're not telling me I can never swim in this pool. They're not telling me it's wrong and their religion disagrees with me because i'm a man, or because i'm trans they just have this time slot for a specific set of people but i'm more then welcome to come later. 

should a trans woman be allowed in the pool?

Why are you and Greg insisting on making this thread about transgender people?

Why can't the question just be "Is this discrimination?"

When you've both complained including the person liking Greg's posts about "me" talking about transgender rights too much. Yet, here you guys are bringing it up and making it into transgender issues.

[Miss Tequila]

Jun 30, 2016 22:21:35 GMT -5 Kolt! said:

Jun 30, 2016 22:16:29 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

should a trans woman be allowed in the pool?

Why are you and Greg insisting on making this thread about transgender people?

Why can't the question just be "Is this discrimination?"

When you've both complained including the person liking Greg's posts about "me" talking about transgender rights too much. Yet, here you guys are bringing it up and making it into transgender issues.

I never complained to you about talking about transgender issues. I actually called someone else a hypocrite for saying that you.

It is a valid question and it is odd to me that no one will answer it

[Kolt!]

Jun 30, 2016 22:38:28 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Jun 30, 2016 22:21:35 GMT -5 Kolt! said:

Why are you and Greg insisting on making this thread about transgender people?

Why can't the question just be "Is this discrimination?"

When you've both complained including the person liking Greg's posts about "me" talking about transgender rights too much. Yet, here you guys are bringing it up and making it into transgender issues.

I never complained to you about talking about transgender issues. I actually called someone else a hypocrite for saying that you.

It is a valid question and it is odd to me that no one will answer it

I'm sorry then. Actually I do think I remember you calling the person out. 

I'm just frustrated is all because I've been trying to watch myself in bringing up transgender issues even if they seem to fall under certain categories. But, then they get brought up and if I talk about them people are known to slam me for speaking up but in the same breath like someone that speaks out in negativity about it. >.> 

---
But I'll give my personal opinion. 

My personal opinion is a trans woman should be allowed to use the pool if she has had surgeries my reason for this is because nobody would know she was a trans woman unless she went advertising it. She wouldn't have a dick and she'd have boobs. If the trans woman has yet to have surgeries then no I do not believe that trans woman should be allowed into the pool until she has done so. 

However, to be honest? If it were me and it was a "Men's Only" for two hours and they told me I wasn't allowed to come swimming because I am a transman but I can come back in two hours I personally wouldn't feel all that bad in this case. I'd still be allowed to swim eventually. It'd be different if they told me I could never come swim in this pool ever.

But... what's interesting is that if this were the case... they'd tell me I can't because I was born with a vagina... but if I tried to enter into the Woman's Only hours they wouldn't let me in there either because there's no way I can pass as a woman...no boobs, and.... I think you can get the picture with my under parts. 

[Tennesseer]

Jun 30, 2016 21:59:15 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Jun 30, 2016 21:49:22 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

If the Jenners of the world wanted to swim with the other women and swim "in dresses, some with long sleeves. One paddled in thick black tights". And "Inside the locker room, wigs sat upside down on window ledges and benches while their owners swam with heads under ruffled swimming caps or knotted silk scarves" or "calf-length, denim-colored dresses with three-quarter sleeves. The only thing that vaguely identified the outfits as seaworthy was a palm tree or a beach ball embroidered on the chest", why not.

The pool doesn't mandate that attire for the pool. Im a female so if I wanted to go I could. I could assure you I would not be wearing those crazy outfits


So can a trans woman go (or trans man? Im forgetting which way the sex goes with the name).

Well the Jenners of the world would surely look out of place looking like that at this particular pool populate by Hasidic women:



When the Hasidic women in the pool are are dressed something like this:



But whatever! Wear what you want I guess.

[Green Eyed Lady]

I guess I'm confused as to why swimwear is even mentioned.  I didn't read anywhere that there was a dress code - simply that one must be female. What's the big deal with what they (or anybody) wear?

[Tennesseer]

Jun 30, 2016 23:10:02 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

I guess I'm confused as to why swimwear is even mentioned.  I didn't read anywhere that there was a dress code - simply that one must be female. What's the big deal with what they (or anybody) wear?

In the linked article of the OP, it describes what the Hasidic women wear while swimming in the pool. All the women are modestly dressed.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Yes. I saw that. I just don't see why it was mentioned. It's not required. Why mention how these ladies dress?  It has nothing to do with the issue. That's why I was wondering. I wasn't meaning you.

[Tennesseer]

Jun 30, 2016 23:26:08 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Yes. I saw that. I just don't see why it was mentioned. It's not required. Why mention how these ladies dress?  It has nothing to do with the issue. That's why I was wondering. I wasn't meaning you.

I know you didn't mean me.

The article in the OP is about the modesty of these Hasidic women and they don't like men staring at their bodies, even in the clothing mentioned in the article. The pool is also located in a Williamsburg, Brooklyn with a heavy population of Hasidic Jews unlike other areas of New York city. So it is not unusual for these women to be at this one particular pool. Even when Hasidic women are outdoors wearing modest street clothes, they wear wigs to cover the hair so no one can see it other than their families at home. It is the religious rules and customs of that particular Jewish sect.

Williamsburg Ethnic communities
Hasidic Jewish community

Williamsburg is inhabited by tens of thousands of Hasidic Jews of various sects, and contains the headquarters of one faction of the Satmar Hasidic group, Williamsburg's Satmar population numbers about 73,000.[46]

Hasidic Jews first moved to the neighborhood in the years prior to World War II, along with many other religious and non-religious Jews who sought to escape the difficult living conditions on Manhattan's Lower East Side. Beginning in the late 1940s and early 1950s, the area received a large concentration of Holocaust survivors, many of whom were Hasidic Jews from rural areas of Hungary and Romania.[47] These people were led by several Hasidic leaders, among them the rebbes of Satmar, Klausenberg, Vien, Pupa, Tzehlem, and Skver. In addition, Williamsburg contained sizable numbers of religious, but non-Hasidic Jews. The rebbe of Satmar, Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum, ultimately exerted the most powerful influence over the community, causing many of the non-Satmars, especially the non-Hasidim, to leave. Teitelbaum was known for his fierce anti-Zionism and for his charismatic but abrasive style of leadership.

With the gentrification of North Williamsburg, Hasidim have fought to retain the character of their neighborhood and have characterized the influx of what they call the artisten as a "plague" and “a bitter decree from Heaven.”[53] Tensions have risen over housing costs, loud and boisterous nightlife events, and the introduction of bike lanes along Bedford Avenue.

WIlliamsburg, Brooklyn

[Deleted]

Jun 30, 2016 22:04:04 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jun 30, 2016 21:15:47 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Yup. That.

Another exception? Who'd've thunk!?

I should claim I'm mentally predisposed to inventing stupid exceptions--by no fault of my own--and get an hour at the pool all to myself.

Religion is a choice. Physical disabilities are not. That's not an exception... that's just simple reality.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jul 1, 2016 0:11:18 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Jun 30, 2016 22:04:04 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Another exception? Who'd've thunk!?

I should claim I'm mentally predisposed to inventing stupid exceptions--by no fault of my own--and get an hour at the pool all to myself.

Religion is a choice. Physical disabilities are not. That's not an exception... that's just simple reality.

Equality trumping the respect, decency, and practicality of accommodating Hasidic women but not the elderly, mentally retarded, etc. is an exception you've pulled out of your hat.

If equality trumps all, it trumps all. Did young people's taxes pay for the pool? Did mentally abled people's taxes pay for the pool? Then by the law of "equality", they ought to be able to swim in the pool they're required to pay for whenever anyone else can, and screw the women, elderly, and mentally disabled.

If we instead want to live in a society where we offer a few hours to certain groups out of respect, decency, and practicality, there's absolutely no good reason to draw the line between "by choice" and "not by choice". Choice doesn't determine need, it doesn't determine practicality, it doesn't determine entitlement to respect. If a pool in a veteran-rich suburb wants to offer veteran-only hours, being a veteran is a choice, yet I can fully respect accommodating veterans. If it wants to have a "family hour" for parents with young kids, having kids is a choice, yet I can fully respect accommodating parents with kids.

On the other side of the equation, even you should have no problem coming up with dozens of examples of not-by-choice groups and individuals you don't consider worthy of special accommodation.

Distinctions should be made based on need, practicality, and prevalence, not arbitrary rules the Weltzes and Richards of the world pull out of their hats. What may be prevalent in one community may not be prevalent in another. In a community with 75,000 Hasidic Jews and Holocaust survivors, it's not unreasonable to set aside a few hours a week at a few pools to allow these people, whose taxes also pay for the pools, an opportunity to use them. Heaven knows, if they weren't taxed to death paying for things like public pools they can't use, they could have built their own private pools to swim in by now.

[Miss Tequila]

Jun 30, 2016 22:57:29 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jun 30, 2016 21:59:15 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

The pool doesn't mandate that attire for the pool. Im a female so if I wanted to go I could. I could assure you I would not be wearing those crazy outfits


So can a trans woman go (or trans man? Im forgetting which way the sex goes with the name).

Well the Jenners of the world would surely look out of place looking like that at this particular pool populate by Hasidic women:



When the Hasidic women in the pool are are dressed something like this:



But whatever! Wear what you want I guess.

You still didn't answer my question.

[Miss Tequila]

Jun 30, 2016 22:52:18 GMT -5 Kolt! said:

Jun 30, 2016 22:38:28 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

I never complained to you about talking about transgender issues. I actually called someone else a hypocrite for saying that you.

It is a valid question and it is odd to me that no one will answer it

I'm sorry then. Actually I do think I remember you calling the person out. 

I'm just frustrated is all because I've been trying to watch myself in bringing up transgender issues even if they seem to fall under certain categories. But, then they get brought up and if I talk about them people are known to slam me for speaking up but in the same breath like someone that speaks out in negativity about it. >.> 

---
But I'll give my personal opinion. 

My personal opinion is a trans woman should be allowed to use the pool if she has had surgeries my reason for this is because nobody would know she was a trans woman unless she went advertising it. She wouldn't have a dick and she'd have boobs. If the trans woman has yet to have surgeries then no I do not believe that trans woman should be allowed into the pool until she has done so. 

However, to be honest? If it were me and it was a "Men's Only" for two hours and they told me I wasn't allowed to come swimming because I am a transman but I can come back in two hours I personally wouldn't feel all that bad in this case. I'd still be allowed to swim eventually. It'd be different if they told me I could never come swim in this pool ever.

But... what's interesting is that if this were the case... they'd tell me I can't because I was born with a vagina... but if I tried to enter into the Woman's Only hours they wouldn't let me in there either because there's no way I can pass as a woman...no boobs, and.... I think you can get the picture with my under parts. 

I meant no offense. I just see a hypocrisy from certain posters. When gel said she wasn't modest and didn't want a genetic male in the locker room with her, everyone jumped on her. But for some reason everyone is ok with the modesty of hiskdic Jews. Tenn quoted religious reasons. But if this were a bunch of southern baptist super religious women they would be told to get over it and if they don't like it go build their own pools. thats why I jumped on the transgender thing...because I knew that the same people bashing gel and me for not wanting to be in a locker room with genetic males are the same people saying it's ok that these women don't want men in the pool with them. Well trans women aren't men and can use the bathroom with women...so they should be allowed to use this pool with the women (following the argument on the locker room).

[Deleted]

Jul 1, 2016 4:46:12 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jul 1, 2016 0:11:18 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Religion is a choice. Physical disabilities are not. That's not an exception... that's just simple reality.

Equality trumping the respect, decency, and practicality of accommodating Hasidic women but not the elderly, mentally retarded, etc. is an exception you've pulled out of your hat.

If equality trumps all, it trumps all. Did young people's taxes pay for the pool? Did mentally abled people's taxes pay for the pool? Then by the law of "equality", they ought to be able to swim in the pool they're required to pay for whenever anyone else can, and screw the women, elderly, and mentally disabled.

If we instead want to live in a society where we offer a few hours to certain groups out of respect, decency, and practicality, there's absolutely no good reason to draw the line between "by choice" and "not by choice". Choice doesn't determine need, it doesn't determine practicality, it doesn't determine entitlement to respect. If a pool in a veteran-rich suburb wants to offer veteran-only hours, being a veteran is a choice, yet I can fully respect accommodating veterans. If it wants to have a "family hour" for parents with young kids, having kids is a choice, yet I can fully respect accommodating parents with kids.

On the other side of the equation, even you should have no problem coming up with dozens of examples of not-by-choice groups and individuals you don't consider worthy of special accommodation.

Distinctions should be made based on need, practicality, and prevalence, not arbitrary rules the Weltzes and Richards of the world pull out of their hats. What may be prevalent in one community may not be prevalent in another. In a community with 75,000 Hasidic Jews and Holocaust survivors, it's not unreasonable to set aside a few hours a week at a few pools to allow these people, whose taxes also pay for the pools, an opportunity to use them. Heaven knows, if they weren't taxed to death paying for things like public pools they can't use, they could have built their own private pools to swim in by now.

You missed the whole point of my post that you quoted... didn't you?

Religion is a choice (even if sometimes that "choice" is made for you, via parental brainwashing), physical characteristics aren't.

Interestingly enough, I wouldn't care that there's "women only" times at the pool... as long as there were an equal number of hours that were "men only". That's equality that allows for the respect for choices. When it's limited to one gender though, then it's not reasonable, nor is it fair.

Choice doesn't determine need, I agree. However, availability of desired options IS determined by choice. It's part of the results OF the choice. If you freely choose something that eliminates options... then you should have chosen differently if you want those options.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jul 1, 2016 5:34:23 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Interestingly enough, I wouldn't care that there's "women only" times at the pool... as long as there were an equal number of hours that were "men only". That's equality that allows for the respect for choices.

Great. Now not only are you selectively kicking people out of the pool they paid for, you're doing so without any practical reason half of the time. Because equality.

Jul 1, 2016 5:34:23 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

If you freely choose something that eliminates options... then you should have chosen differently if you want those options.

...or, provided your special interest lobby is powerful enough, you can cry "discrimination" and require that public institutions accommodate you.

I know how the system works, sir.

[Deleted]

Jul 1, 2016 5:56:17 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jul 1, 2016 5:34:23 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Interestingly enough, I wouldn't care that there's "women only" times at the pool... as long as there were an equal number of hours that were "men only". That's equality that allows for the respect for choices.

Great. Now not only are you selectively kicking people out of the pool they paid for, you're doing so without any practical reason half of the time. Because equality.

The "practical reason" IS equality.

If women want some hours to be "women only" then they have to cede an equal number of hours to "men only". It's that whole "choice" thing that you seem to have trouble grasping.

Jul 1, 2016 5:56:17 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jul 1, 2016 5:34:23 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

If you freely choose something that eliminates options... then you should have chosen differently if you want those options.

...or, provided your special interest lobby is powerful enough, you can cry "discrimination" and require that public institutions accommodate you.

I know how the system works, sir.

Apparently you don't know how it's supposed to work though. I know both how it works AND how it's supposed to work... I'm hoping for a day when the two will be one-in-the-same.

(and you can only successfully "cry discrimination" if you are actually being discriminated against... if you made a bad choice that limits your options that's entirely on you)

[Tennesseer]

Jul 1, 2016 5:18:35 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Jun 30, 2016 22:57:29 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Well the Jenners of the world would surely look out of place looking like that at this particular pool populate by Hasidic women:



When the Hasidic women in the pool are are dressed something like this:



But whatever! Wear what you want I guess.

You still didn't answer my question.

I already did.

Jun 30, 2016 21:49:22 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jun 30, 2016 21:37:58 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

But you are ok with genetic males who identify as female using rhe women's room, right? So are you ok with the Caitlyn jenners of the world using this pool with the women?

If the Jenners of the world wanted to swim with the other women and swim "in dresses, some with long sleeves. One paddled in thick black tights". And "Inside the locker room, wigs sat upside down on window ledges and benches while their owners swam with heads under ruffled swimming caps or knotted silk scarves" or "calf-length, denim-colored dresses with three-quarter sleeves. The only thing that vaguely identified the outfits as seaworthy was a palm tree or a beach ball embroidered on the chest", why not.