milee
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Post by milee on Jun 11, 2016 8:54:07 GMT -5
I saw a really good article about this the other day - basically it was that drunken sex for men is a "mistake" and that for women it's "rape." I think most women say "ugh I shouldn't have drank so much" and not press charges or whatever, but it does happen. There was a case that an old boss was involved in and it just came up about this sort of thing - he was with a woman and they were out and both drinking, and she said she was raped. I actually saw him that night and the situation was that they were together and both all over each other. The problem was that he was married as far as I could tell - she wasn't forced by any means from what I saw - he's a douchebag obviously and I thought he was for other reasons more pertaining to work - but from what I saw it wouldn't have been rape. I can see how that would be so hard to defend against in court though. Especially since he was married, so his character is already questioned. I don't know how it worked out - I didn't write the letter he asked for and maybe I should have - but from what I saw he was a cheater but not a rapist. To elaborate a little on this - he was getting divorced around that time and I don't know whether he was divorced or not. It was also obvious that this wasn't their first time out together - him and the girlfriend - I understand that you can feel comfortable together but obviously they knew each other well by the way they acted. The way it happened was that he was in line to get a drink and I was behind him - and another poster on our forums was minding her own business at the table which I wish I had been in hindsight - and she ran up and said what she wanted him to buy and they were all over each other. Actually she was all over him more than her, and he saw me and we talked briefly, and then he ordered his drinks. He didn't really acknowledge her or seemed to be embarrassed by her. He just ordered the drinks and they left. I went up to the bar and ordered our drinks and thought wow "for all the careers I've seen wasted and that was so open!" But I found out later about divorce and that was like the next week through the rumor mill, so he probably did file for the dovorce before this happened. I'm sure they met before this night though, just by the way they acted. She was obviously more intoxicated than him, but both of them were into each other. I bought the beers and we moved to the other room in the bar because of that, so I don't know what happened after. Well not really because of that, but because I couldn't stand that m-er f-er because of other reasons and I wanted to enjoy myself. Well that and there was topless bullriding going on and I felt a little inadequate :-P. My wife said "why don't you tell him to calm down!" and I was like "Because he would beat my ass if he did!" Discretion is the better part of valor, right? Wow, I got way off-topic. If I did write the letter I would have said that he was not guilty from what I saw. And I can't stand that guy...we were chalk and cheese - but I don't think there was rape involved. In another twist of fate - his ex-wife said he raped her - and I never met her so I have no idea but he asked for a character witness letter again. Maybe just quit fucking drunk chicks man. And get a written statement first. With witnesses. Stamped by a clergyman or something. This elaboration makes it even worse. So now even though two separate women - women who probably don't know or like each other - have accused this guy of rape, you have concluded based on his behaviour in public that he didn't rape anyone. This is why Bill Cosby got away with it for so long, he was famous and everybody loved him. In public, he was an All-American dad, gentle, funny guy... how could he possibly do something awful in private? This is why well-respected men in a community often get away with rape or child abuse or beating their wife... everybody goes to church with him on Sunday and he's so nice, he wouldn't possibly do something awful in private. Has it not occurred to you yet that predators - and a rapist is a predator - pick out victims that are less likely to be credible? If you're a rapist and there's some girl that's friendly to you in public and she's drinking, that's a pretty good target because it's likely she'll be doubted if she tells on you later. I'm not saying this is what happened - I wasn't in the room with them when they were in private and neither were you - but it's just as likely to have been what happened as what you think happened. Unless you were in the room with the couple when the incident took place, you have no idea what happened. His behaviour in public does necessarily equate to his behaviour in private. Her behaviour in public does not necessarily equate to her behaviour in private.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2016 9:25:15 GMT -5
What makes it rape IS what happened after they left the bar. So yes, you have no idea if it was rape or not. So i have no idea what you might have been attesting to... ?
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 11, 2016 9:25:36 GMT -5
I have no idea what happened in his case, but I really don't think it was rape based off of what I saw. Obviously I wasn't in the bedroom, so it could have been. I have no idea what happened later on, and neither do you. This was a different vibe than dancing close and kissing like at the high school dance. So you weren't there when they were in private, yet you're still willing to conclude that public behaviour = private behaviour? I guess we can all rest easy about Bill Cosby then. He's a funny, responsible guy who tells black youth to work hard. Therefore, we can conclude he would not rape anyone. Those 50+ sluts must have thrown themselves at him and had regrets later. Same with Jerry Sandusky. He was a well-liked coach of a winning team who took in foster kids and donated huge amounts of time and money to charity; he was practically a saint. Therefore, we can conclude that he would not rape or molest boys. And for all those slutty girls who put out a "different vibe", they are asking for it and obviously can't be raped because they wanted it. After all, making out with a guy and buying him a drink means one is willing to do whatever the guy wants later.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 11, 2016 9:27:09 GMT -5
Has it not occurred to you yet that predators - and a rapist is a predator - pick out victims that are less likely to be credible? If you're a rapist and there's some girl that's friendly to you in public and she's drinking, that's a pretty good target because it's likely she'll be doubted if she tells on you later. I'm not saying this is what happened - I wasn't in the room with them when they were in private and neither were you - but it's just as likely to have been what happened as what you think happened.
Unless you were in the room with the couple when the incident took place, you have no idea what happened. His behaviour in public does necessarily equate to his behaviour in private. Her behaviour in public does not necessarily equate to her behaviour in private. I haven't concluded anything...but it sounds like you have. You keep concluding that based on what you saw, "it" wouldn't have been rape.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2016 9:39:19 GMT -5
"I can't stand that guy...we were chalk and cheese - but I don't think there was rape involved."
"I really don't think it was raped based off of what i saw."
"from what i saw he was a cheater but not a rapist"
... I'm not sure how you can say you weren't drawing conclusions?
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Jun 11, 2016 17:27:34 GMT -5
Thought experiment: Two females of roughly the same age and social status are both intoxicated past the legal limit for consent yet drunkenly agree to have sex. Can/should one or both be charged with rape? Would it be the first to go to the police who is the victim? If a "toy" is employed by only one, would that be the determinate? If it is two males, which if either would be appropriate to charge? Would the exact acts/positions be the determinate? What if it is one male and one female both intoxicated past the legal limit who drunkenly agree to have sex? How do you determine which one is a victim and which one is criminally liable? Rape is defined as penile penetration of the vagina. Hence its not rape. She would be charged with Aggravated Sex Abuse or Criminal Sexual Act Men don't have vagina. But I had herd they get raped. So there is no law for raping a man? Also when gays rape happening - no vaginas! So...no rape?
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jun 11, 2016 19:06:32 GMT -5
I'm not going to lie..sometimes I do feel like woman need to be judges for rape cases more often.
I just feel like sometimes you get older male judges that sometimes will take a man's side...because honestly some men do still believe they're entitled to woman in that regards.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 11, 2016 19:43:36 GMT -5
I believe we concluded that any time a man has sex with a woman that is considered rape. If a man talks to another man who has had sex with a woman, he is also guilty of rape. Also, men are not allowed to have an opinion of whether a rape occured, women who have never met a man that has had sex with a woman are capable of deciding whether she was raped or not, women who read a post on a forum about a man who knows a man who may or may not have had sex with a woman can decide whether she was raped or not, and lastly but not leastly women who read a post on a forum by a man who knows another man who may or may not have had sex with a woman are well within their rights to go bat-shit crazy on the man who knows another man who may or may not have had sex with a woman. Oh, and the moderator who knows a woman, who saw a post by a man who knows another man who may or may not have had sex with a woman will also go bat-shit crazy and not offer a comment to either the woman who read the posts of the man who knows another man who may or may not have had sex with a woman, or to the man who knows the man who may or may not have had sex with the woman, but she will agree with the woman who is going bat-shit crazy on the man who knows the man who may or may not have had sex with a woman because she understands that a woman can read a forum post by a man who knows another man who may or not have had sex with a woman and conclude that it was rape. And it's perfectly OK to conclude a rape didn't occur since you saw the people together earlier and they looked really super friendly.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 11, 2016 19:56:29 GMT -5
Predators are often really charming people. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to build the relationships to be able to,prey on people.
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jun 11, 2016 19:59:51 GMT -5
Even if a man and woman are making out for all to see and then he takes her to the bedroom and tries to have sex with her and she's pushing him off and telling her no...
Just because she had been making out with him earlier and willingly went into the bedroom with him doesn't mean the man didn't rape her.
She may have changed her mind and got nervous or decided against it once she got in the bedroom. When someone says "No" it doesn't matter if they seemed "friendly" before or even thought they wanted to earlier. It is rape if the person says No...even if she'd said yes earlier and changes her mind later.
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jun 11, 2016 20:00:50 GMT -5
A man isn't entitled to a girl just because she flirted with him or made out with him earlier...
A man isn't entitled to a girl either even if she'd willingly had sex with him one night and then doesn't want to the next.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 11, 2016 22:25:35 GMT -5
... then he takes her to the bedroom ... Interesting wording. What if instead "they go to the bedroom" or even "she takes him to the bedroom"?
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jun 11, 2016 22:34:39 GMT -5
... then he takes her to the bedroom ... Interesting wording. What if instead "they go to the bedroom" or even "she takes him to the bedroom"? Is that seriously all you really got out of that?
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jun 11, 2016 22:35:37 GMT -5
... then he takes her to the bedroom ... Interesting wording. What if instead "they go to the bedroom" or even "she takes him to the bedroom"? How bout even if she takes him to the bedroom and then they make out and she says no, it is still rape even if she's the one that took him to the bedroom.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 11, 2016 22:44:29 GMT -5
Interesting wording. What if instead "they go to the bedroom" or even "she takes him to the bedroom"? Is that seriously all you really got out of that? It was the piece that I found interesting. You disempowered the female with that wording.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 11, 2016 22:50:52 GMT -5
Interesting wording. What if instead "they go to the bedroom" or even "she takes him to the bedroom"? How bout even if she takes him to the bedroom and then they make out and she says no, it is still rape even if she's the one that took him to the bedroom. It is rape if at any point either person says "No" prior, during, or, if one is adequately intoxicated, after sex as taken place.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 12, 2016 7:39:37 GMT -5
Is it considered rape if the male is intoxicated but the female isn't? In other words, is she guilty of raping him? I think that would be a very difficult case to prove to a jury, based on our societal ideas about sex. Actually I think most people would have an easier time believing he raped her if he was the one intoxicated in the scenario and she was sober. Absolutely. If he is too drunk to consent, it's rape.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Jun 12, 2016 8:50:53 GMT -5
... then he takes her to the bedroom ... Interesting wording. What if instead "they go to the bedroom" or even "she takes him to the bedroom"? Then...he is lucky!
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Jun 12, 2016 8:52:34 GMT -5
Is it considered rape if the male is intoxicated but the female isn't? In other words, is she guilty of raping him? I think that would be a very difficult case to prove to a jury, based on our societal ideas about sex. Actually I think most people would have an easier time believing he raped her if he was the one intoxicated in the scenario and she was sober. Absolutely. If he is too drunk to consent, it's rape. But...HE is penetrating vagina still. So...how is she guilty? You said it yourself that rape is penetrating of vagina.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Jun 12, 2016 8:56:44 GMT -5
Speaking of which pardon my ignorance but can man get it up if he isn't willing to have sex with the person? When scared, drunk, unwilling, not attracted? Because sometimes they can't under normal circumstances so I would assume it is impossible under pressure. Just wondering.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 12, 2016 9:27:42 GMT -5
An erection is not consent.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 12, 2016 9:42:18 GMT -5
An erection is not consent. Under the best of conditions, they have a mind of their own.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Jun 12, 2016 10:08:36 GMT -5
An erection is not consent. Said who? Continuing to wonder
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 12, 2016 10:14:14 GMT -5
An erection is not consent. Said who? Continuing to wonder Most doctors would agree. Also you saw Tenn's post.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Jun 12, 2016 10:19:19 GMT -5
Said who? Continuing to wonder Most doctors would agree. Also you saw Tenn's post. According to Tenn 'they' have mind. I say if they had half they would know when not to get up or their owner will drag their balls to jail lol
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Jun 12, 2016 17:41:54 GMT -5
I guess the next logical question would be: If both parties are intoxicated does that mean both are guilty of rape?
If so, then I would submit that 99.9% of the posters here are both victims and perpetrators of rape, both male and female.
hmmm...depends on a size...
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 13, 2016 11:55:13 GMT -5
I guess the next logical question would be: If both parties are intoxicated does that mean both are guilty of rape?
If so, then I would submit that 99.9% of the posters here are both victims and perpetrators of rape, both male and female.
Not that I have to worry about this anymore since I'm married and long past getting blackout drunk...
But looking back at college years, what worries me the most and makes me the most relieved about never winding up in jail is the idea that everything might be completely fine if we're both just "intoxicated"...but what happens if we're both so intoxicated (or even just her) that it's a blackout situation? How do women understand the next morning if they were blackout drunk and made a bad choice, or actually got slipped a drug? Heck, if I was blackout drunk, how would I even testify that she said yes? How do you defend yourself against something you don't remember when the other person's inability to remember it as well acts as the accusation (she can't remember it, so it must have been rape, you can't remember it, so you can't defend yourself from the accusation at all).
As with many things in life, it isn't simply "don't do this"...it's "don't do anything that would even give anyone the impression you might have done this".
As far as rape definitions (either legal or social) go...it seems the archaic definition still stands that sex is basically something that a man DOES TO a woman. The male is the active party, the female the passive, which is how we get these messed up definitions which lead to 2 parties doing the same thing, but the man being a rapist and the woman being a victim.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 14, 2016 8:07:38 GMT -5
I guess the next logical question would be: If both parties are intoxicated does that mean both are guilty of rape?
If so, then I would submit that 99.9% of the posters here are both victims and perpetrators of rape, both male and female.
That's what I said a few pages back. Because I know damn well that most of my female friends have had drunken sex. Not passed out drunk (rape) but definitely very drunk. Based on everything posted in this thread that means that they (and me) have all been raped. And if that's not the case, then what differentiates who gets to claim rape? Because I certainly don't feel like a rape victim. I feel like a person who did things drunk that they wouldn't do sober (not only sex...let's just say I'm very happy that there were no camera phones back in the day!).
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Jun 27, 2016 11:00:52 GMT -5
I guess the next logical question would be: If both parties are intoxicated does that mean both are guilty of rape?
If so, then I would submit that 99.9% of the posters here are both victims and perpetrators of rape, both male and female.
That's what I said a few pages back. Because I know damn well that most of my female friends have had drunken sex. Not passed out drunk (rape) but definitely very drunk. Based on everything posted in this thread that means that they (and me) have all been raped. And if that's not the case, then what differentiates who gets to claim rape? Because I certainly don't feel like a rape victim. I feel like a person who did things drunk that they wouldn't do sober (not only sex...let's just say I'm very happy that there were no camera phones back in the day!).
I go with a 2-prong approach.
1. Always film it, so there's video evidence 2. File the rape complaint first
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