Role of Gender re: Rape

[Deleted]

Jun 10, 2016 7:27:43 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jun 9, 2016 20:10:48 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Thought experiment:

Two females of roughly the same age and social status are both intoxicated past the legal limit for consent yet drunkenly agree to have sex. Can/should one or both be charged with rape? Would it be the first to go to the police who is the victim? If a "toy" is employed by only one, would that be the determinate?

If it is two males, which if either would be appropriate to charge? Would the exact acts/positions be the determinate?

What if it is one male and one female both intoxicated past the legal limit who drunkenly agree to have sex? How do you determine which one is a victim and which one is criminally liable? 

Rape is defined as penile penetration of the vagina. Hence its not rape. She would be charged with Aggravated Sex Abuse or Criminal Sexual Act

So, the toy example he gave. Could that then move to rape? 

[Politically_Incorrect12]

Jun 10, 2016 7:17:20 GMT -5 @bamafan1954 said:

Call me naïve (because I am), but if a guy is capable of penetration, isn't he capable of giving consent?  Doesn't biology shut him down otherwise?

I grew up a long time ago with no brothers, no male cousins or friends, etc.  But I thought biology took care of a guy's consent problem.

This does NOT reference the OP's examples.

He's as capable as the woman who is conscious, but drunk....however, there seems to be the argument that the woman is incapable to true consent if she's had anything to drink

[justme]

Jun 10, 2016 7:17:20 GMT -5 @bamafan1954 said:

Call me naïve (because I am), but if a guy is capable of penetration, isn't he capable of giving consent?  Doesn't biology shut him down otherwise?

I grew up a long time ago with no brothers, no male cousins or friends, etc.  But I thought biology took care of a guy's consent problem.

This does NOT reference the OP's examples.

Emphatically no. Guys can surely get erections when they don't want to. And while whiskey dick is true with some guys, not all guys can't get up when they're plastered.

It's that thinking that makes it difficult for guys to report rape. They think that because they were aroused they must have wanted it on some level. Similar to the thought process women have if they orgasm during a rape. Our bodies can betray us and do the opposite of what we're thinking and want.

[milee]

Jun 10, 2016 7:57:25 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

Jun 10, 2016 7:17:20 GMT -5 @bamafan1954 said:

Call me naïve (because I am), but if a guy is capable of penetration, isn't he capable of giving consent?  Doesn't biology shut him down otherwise?

I grew up a long time ago with no brothers, no male cousins or friends, etc.  But I thought biology took care of a guy's consent problem.

This does NOT reference the OP's examples.

He's as capable as the woman who is conscious, but drunk....however, there seems to be the argument that the woman is incapable to true consent if she's had anything to drink

You keep bringing this up.  You're the only one I see making that argument.  

[Politically_Incorrect12]

Jun 10, 2016 8:30:43 GMT -5 milee said:

Jun 10, 2016 7:57:25 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

He's as capable as the woman who is conscious, but drunk....however, there seems to be the argument that the woman is incapable to true consent if she's had anything to drink

You keep bringing this up.  You're the only one I see making that argument.  

No I'm not, but I absolutely am one of the ones openly questioning if that should be the case because many people don't seem to want to give a clear answer about it.  I'm not talking about unconscious women or men, I'm not talking about women or men who have to be carried up to the room, I'm not talking about women or men who say no; I'm talking about the issue I see with women who are able and willing while they are drunk even having the option of calling it rape after-the-fact simply because they were drinking.  If more people would just come out and say in those instances, it's not right for counselors or anybody else to be able to tell women that just because they were drinking, they could press rape against the guy, the discussion wouldn't have continued about this part of the subject.  I don't think many people would disagree that it can be difficult to say "what is too drunk," but to say any drinking at all makes a person unable to consent is too far in the other direction. 

[Deleted]

Jun 10, 2016 8:30:43 GMT -5 milee said:

Jun 10, 2016 7:57:25 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

He's as capable as the woman who is conscious, but drunk....however, there seems to be the argument that the woman is incapable to true consent if she's had anything to drink

You keep bringing this up.  You're the only one I see making that argument.  

Isn't that what got the guy convicted in your example? 

[Miss Tequila]

Jun 9, 2016 21:58:33 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

Jun 9, 2016 21:36:36 GMT -5 Peace Of Mind said:

I have no idea when alcohol is involved.  Yes should be yes and no should be no and the people involved should be able to say either even if slurred.  Mutual tearing off of clothes should be under a no fault sexual experience.  So I suggest video taping the experience or getting a document signed to CYA.     

The Stanford case is a no brainer.  That dude is one sick MFer and should be put away for a long time.  And those 2 Swedish heroes should be getting great things in their lives and soon. 

I think that is part of the issue where there is a line of thinking that suggests the definition of rape should also include morning after regret because an intoxicated person cannot give legal consent, and even if both parties were drunk, fully wake, and consenting, there is still this push that the men should bear the blame for it.  So in essence men are still responsible and have to deal with the consequences of their decisions when they are drunk, but the same does not seem to apply to women.  If a guy is drunk and has sex with a woman that he regrets sleeping with the next morning, even if the woman was completely sober, society and I am guessing some people on this board would feel differently about the situation than if the woman was drunk and the man was completely sober.  For all the dislike of abstinence only education, it seems that we are trying to tell men that if you do have sex, you better hope she does not change her mind in the morning, even if you both were wanting it in the moment...so to be safe, you probably should avoid sex.  

Saying that hat is not blaming the victim, it is not saying that no does not mean no...it is however saying that it is not fair to place all the decision making blame on the men IF the women involved also wanted the same thing, but that is what people are wanting to do in regard to drinking and making bad decisions that they may or may not have made while sober.  

I agree and as a woman, I find it incredibly offensive that a man could be held responsible for my poor choices.  I'm not talking rape  where I am assaulted or rape where I am unconscious.  But I've been drunk in my life and I've done stuff that I wouldn't do sober.  That is completely on me and no one else.  I will never understand why women want to make women in general appear so weak that we can't even make our own decisions...but the same is not true for men.  Which says to me that women need protecting and men can take care of themselves.  Maybe it's just me but I would think that would have feminists screaming for equality...but it seems we only want equality when it can get us ahead in life.  When it comes to personal responsibility...nope, not my fault...it's all on the guy

ETA: And before you all jump all over me like you like to do, poor choices is not "wearing slutty clothes" or any other idiot thing you will accuse me of thinking.  Poor choices is getting shit faced, having sex with someone I wouldn't normally have sex with, wake up with major regret and accuse him of rape.  Because I know damn well there are a LOT of women on this board that have had drunken sex in their youth...because a lot of us have talked about it.  So I guess almost all of us were raped at some point because we couldn't give consent if we were drunk. 

[milee]

Jun 10, 2016 8:51:05 GMT -5 oped said:

Jun 10, 2016 8:30:43 GMT -5 milee said:

You keep bringing this up.  You're the only one I see making that argument.  

Isn't that what got the guy convicted in your example? 

Nothing in what I described mentioned that a girl is incapable of consent if she's had "anything" to drink.  Nothing in what I described mentioned conviction or disposition of the case.  

[Politically_Incorrect12]

Jun 10, 2016 9:19:58 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Jun 9, 2016 21:58:33 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

I think that is part of the issue where there is a line of thinking that suggests the definition of rape should also include morning after regret because an intoxicated person cannot give legal consent, and even if both parties were drunk, fully wake, and consenting, there is still this push that the men should bear the blame for it.  So in essence men are still responsible and have to deal with the consequences of their decisions when they are drunk, but the same does not seem to apply to women.  If a guy is drunk and has sex with a woman that he regrets sleeping with the next morning, even if the woman was completely sober, society and I am guessing some people on this board would feel differently about the situation than if the woman was drunk and the man was completely sober.  For all the dislike of abstinence only education, it seems that we are trying to tell men that if you do have sex, you better hope she does not change her mind in the morning, even if you both were wanting it in the moment...so to be safe, you probably should avoid sex.  

Saying that hat is not blaming the victim, it is not saying that no does not mean no...it is however saying that it is not fair to place all the decision making blame on the men IF the women involved also wanted the same thing, but that is what people are wanting to do in regard to drinking and making bad decisions that they may or may not have made while sober.  

I agree and as a woman, I find it incredibly offensive that a man could be held responsible for my poor choices.  I'm not talking rape  where I am assaulted or rape where I am unconscious.  But I've been drunk in my life and I've done stuff that I wouldn't do sober.  That is completely on me and no one else.  I will never understand why women want to make women in general appear so weak that we can't even make our own decisions...but the same is not true for men.  Which says to me that women need protecting and men can take care of themselves.  Maybe it's just me but I would think that would have feminists screaming for equality...but it seems we only want equality when it can get us ahead in life.  When it comes to personal responsibility...nope, not my fault...it's all on the guy

ETA: And before you all jump all over me like you like to do, poor choices is not "wearing slutty clothes" or any other idiot thing you will accuse me of thinking.  Poor choices is getting shit faced, having sex with someone I wouldn't normally have sex with, wake up with major regret and accuse him of rape.  Because I know damn well there are a LOT of women on this board that have had drunken sex in their youth...because a lot of us have talked about it.  So I guess almost all of us were raped at some point because we couldn't give consent if we were drunk. 

Was the bolded part directed at me? I don't think what a woman wears or doesn't wear implies consent in any way...so I'm a little confused if this was directed at me.

[milee]

Jun 10, 2016 8:49:38 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

Jun 10, 2016 8:30:43 GMT -5 milee said:

You keep bringing this up.  You're the only one I see making that argument.  

No I'm not, but I absolutely am one of the ones openly questioning if that should be the case because many people don't seem to want to give a clear answer about it.   

I can't speak for everybody, but I'm not responding for two reasons:

1)  I haven't seen anyone state that women aren't able to give consent if they've had "anything" to drink.  Since I didn't see anyone make that argument and don't believe it myself, there's nothing for me to respond to.
2)  I think it's still illustrative of the original point that set off the debate in the other, original thread that instead of focusing on what we can actively and positively do in this situation to help stop rape by communicating with men/boys, you still keep seeking out outlier scenarios in which the women are portrayed as the instigator or liar.  So I'm not going to feed it by engaging.

If you really want a response to some post you keep claiming someone has made, why don't you go ahead and post the quote or link so that the person who made the claim - that women who have had "anything" to drink aren't able to give consent - can respond?

[Miss Tequila]

Jun 10, 2016 9:38:18 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

Jun 10, 2016 9:19:58 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

I agree and as a woman, I find it incredibly offensive that a man could be held responsible for my poor choices.  I'm not talking rape  where I am assaulted or rape where I am unconscious.  But I've been drunk in my life and I've done stuff that I wouldn't do sober.  That is completely on me and no one else.  I will never understand why women want to make women in general appear so weak that we can't even make our own decisions...but the same is not true for men.  Which says to me that women need protecting and men can take care of themselves.  Maybe it's just me but I would think that would have feminists screaming for equality...but it seems we only want equality when it can get us ahead in life.  When it comes to personal responsibility...nope, not my fault...it's all on the guy

ETA: And before you all jump all over me like you like to do, poor choices is not "wearing slutty clothes" or any other idiot thing you will accuse me of thinking.  Poor choices is getting shit faced, having sex with someone I wouldn't normally have sex with, wake up with major regret and accuse him of rape.  Because I know damn well there are a LOT of women on this board that have had drunken sex in their youth...because a lot of us have talked about it.  So I guess almost all of us were raped at some point because we couldn't give consent if we were drunk. 

Was the bolded part directed at me? I don't think what a woman wears or doesn't wear implies consent in any way...so I'm a little confused if this was directed at me.

Sorry, not directed at you at all. 

[billisonboard]

Jun 10, 2016 9:39:12 GMT -5 milee said:

... I think it's still illustrative of the original point that set off the debate in the other, original thread that instead of focusing on what we can actively and positively do in this situation to help stop rape by communicating with men/boys, ...

I very deliberately did not post the OP in the thread on what we should teach boys about the current true state of rape law. That is one important discussion to be having. I started this thread to have a discussion on what should be the rules that govern drunken sex. My thought was that by removing gender as a factor (please read the OP), that it would illustrate how gender plays out. So ... anyone want to tackle the issue of if it is two drunk girls or two drunk guys going at it?

[bean29]

Jun 10, 2016 8:49:38 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

Jun 10, 2016 8:30:43 GMT -5 milee said:

You keep bringing this up.  You're the only one I see making that argument.  

No I'm not, but I absolutely am one of the ones openly questioning if that should be the case because many people don't seem to want to give a clear answer about it.  I'm not talking about unconscious women or men, I'm not talking about women or men who have to be carried up to the room, I'm not talking about women or men who say no; I'm talking about the issue I see with women who are able and willing while they are drunk even having the option of calling it rape after-the-fact simply because they were drinking.  If more people would just come out and say in those instances, it's not right for counselors or anybody else to be able to tell women that just because they were drinking, they could press rape against the guy, the discussion wouldn't have continued about this part of the subject.  I don't think many people would disagree that it can be difficult to say "what is too drunk," but to say any drinking at all makes a person unable to consent is too far in the other direction. 

This is pretty much the issue I have.  I can think of only very few instances when I was dating that we didn't go to a bar or a party where Alcohol was involved.  I don't like getting sick, so I rarely get extremely drunk or wasted, but I am a small person, so I may have been "legally drunk" on occasion.  I would not however, say that I have ever not given consent that I am aware of.  There is one situation where I now question if I was given a roofie, and the only reason is b/c my friend questioned if I had sex with someone the next morning - she was sure I had, I was sure I did not - not sure I knew what a roofie was at that time.

I am not sure how to measure too drunk to give consent.  I am not sure it is reasonable that if any alcohol was involved you can not give consent.  If you are going to drink and date socially - how are you going to assure that you will not be too drunk to assess your or your partner's ability to give legal consent?  We would all pretty much have to give up drinking - and I really don't think that is going to happen. 

[milee]

Jun 10, 2016 9:54:05 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jun 10, 2016 9:39:12 GMT -5 milee said:

... I think it's still illustrative of the original point that set off the debate in the other, original thread that instead of focusing on what we can actively and positively do in this situation to help stop rape by communicating with men/boys, ...

I very deliberately did not post the OP in the thread on what we should teach boys about the current true state of rape law. That is one important discussion to be having. I started this thread to have a discussion on what should be the rules that govern drunken sex. My thought was that by removing gender as a factor (please read the OP), that it would illustrate how gender plays out. So ... anyone want to tackle the issue of if it is two drunk girls or two drunk guys going at it?

Yes, I agree you started the thread to take gender out of the question.  And it's interesting that once again, it immediately ends up (not your posts, Bill) with how women need to protect themselves by not drinking and how unfair it is that supposedly there is an epidemic of men being unfairly accused of rape by women with day-after regret, so until we hash out all issues we can't begin to address the issue of rape with men.  Sigh.

My personal opinion - in a broad sense the laws and views should be gender neutral.  As a mom of boys, I'm just as outraged to hear about a female teacher sleeping with - AKA raping - an underage boy as I am when I hear about a male teacher sleeping with - AKA raping - an underage girl.  Similarly, it doesn't really matter what sex the attacker or victim is, the definitions and treatment should be the same.  

[ArchietheDragon]

Jun 10, 2016 9:56:34 GMT -5 bean29 said:

Jun 10, 2016 8:49:38 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

No I'm not, but I absolutely am one of the ones openly questioning if that should be the case because many people don't seem to want to give a clear answer about it.  I'm not talking about unconscious women or men, I'm not talking about women or men who have to be carried up to the room, I'm not talking about women or men who say no; I'm talking about the issue I see with women who are able and willing while they are drunk even having the option of calling it rape after-the-fact simply because they were drinking.  If more people would just come out and say in those instances, it's not right for counselors or anybody else to be able to tell women that just because they were drinking, they could press rape against the guy, the discussion wouldn't have continued about this part of the subject.  I don't think many people would disagree that it can be difficult to say "what is too drunk," but to say any drinking at all makes a person unable to consent is too far in the other direction. 

This is pretty much the issue I have.  I can think of only very few instances when I was dating that we didn't go to a bar or a party where Alcohol was involved.  I don't like getting sick, so I rarely get extremely drunk or wasted, but I am a small person, so I may have been "legally drunk" on occasion.  I would not however, say that I have ever not given consent that I am aware of.  There is one situation where I now question if I was given a roofie, and the only reason is b/c my friend questioned if I had sex with someone the next morning - she was sure I had, I was sure I did not - not sure I knew what a roofie was at that time.

I am not sure how to measure too drunk to give consent.  I am not sure it is reasonable that if any alcohol was involved you can not give consent.  If you are going to drink and date socially - how are you going to assure that you will not be too drunk to assess your or your partner's ability to give legal consent?  We would all pretty much have to give up drinking - and I really don't think that is going to happen. 

Same here.    But looking back to my college days, I can't ever remember getting consent before having sex.   As I mentioned, I have a hard time talking about sex, so maybe that is just a me issue, but I do not think I ever asked a girl, do you want to have sex, or are you ok with having sex, etc.    Granted I didn't have sex with many people and we were dating at the time, but I still never got consent.  

I am glad I am not dating anymore.  I am definitely not cut out for it. 

[justme]

Jun 10, 2016 7:29:43 GMT -5 oped said:

Jun 10, 2016 7:27:43 GMT -5 swamp said:

Rape is defined as penile penetration of the vagina. Hence its not rape. She would be charged with Aggravated Sex Abuse or Criminal Sexual Act

So, the toy example he gave. Could that then move to rape? 

It varies by state and states are starting to change their laws on what rape is. But it's not a rapid movement.

Like legally in a lot of states a man can't be raped, it's forced sodomy which carries its own standards and punishments. I also believe that's what forced oral sex falls under too.

Most of the rape laws were written back when men had a right to sex with their wife, men couldn't be raped so it was a law to catch those crazy homosexuals, etc etc.

While what is considered rape by definition has changed over the years, legally it hasn't changed that much.

[alabamagal]

Jun 10, 2016 9:19:58 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Jun 9, 2016 21:58:33 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

I think that is part of the issue where there is a line of thinking that suggests the definition of rape should also include morning after regret because an intoxicated person cannot give legal consent, and even if both parties were drunk, fully wake, and consenting, there is still this push that the men should bear the blame for it.  So in essence men are still responsible and have to deal with the consequences of their decisions when they are drunk, but the same does not seem to apply to women.  If a guy is drunk and has sex with a woman that he regrets sleeping with the next morning, even if the woman was completely sober, society and I am guessing some people on this board would feel differently about the situation than if the woman was drunk and the man was completely sober.  For all the dislike of abstinence only education, it seems that we are trying to tell men that if you do have sex, you better hope she does not change her mind in the morning, even if you both were wanting it in the moment...so to be safe, you probably should avoid sex.  

Saying that hat is not blaming the victim, it is not saying that no does not mean no...it is however saying that it is not fair to place all the decision making blame on the men IF the women involved also wanted the same thing, but that is what people are wanting to do in regard to drinking and making bad decisions that they may or may not have made while sober.  

I agree and as a woman, I find it incredibly offensive that a man could be held responsible for my poor choices.  I'm not talking rape  where I am assaulted or rape where I am unconscious.  But I've been drunk in my life and I've done stuff that I wouldn't do sober.  That is completely on me and no one else.  I will never understand why women want to make women in general appear so weak that we can't even make our own decisions...but the same is not true for men.  Which says to me that women need protecting and men can take care of themselves.  Maybe it's just me but I would think that would have feminists screaming for equality...but it seems we only want equality when it can get us ahead in life.  When it comes to personal responsibility...nope, not my fault...it's all on the guy

ETA: And before you all jump all over me like you like to do, poor choices is not "wearing slutty clothes" or any other idiot thing you will accuse me of thinking.  Poor choices is getting shit faced, having sex with someone I wouldn't normally have sex with, wake up with major regret and accuse him of rape.  Because I know damn well there are a LOT of women on this board that have had drunken sex in their youth...because a lot of us have talked about it.  So I guess almost all of us were raped at some point because we couldn't give consent if we were drunk. 

Unfortunately, the way things are today it is ALL on the guy.  And as I have a 21 year old son in college, who is not in a long term relationship, it is a bit scary.

There have been recent cases where 2 people meet up, drinking involved, sex involved and there is a difference of opinion as to whether or not there was consent.  Maybe there was no consent, but maybe there was and the girl regretted it.  Maybe she doesn't remember if there was consent.  Maybe it is just, "Oh my god I can't believe what I did last night".  Many of us have been there.  But if she reports it as sexual assault/rape, the guy is in deep trouble.  In one recent case the girl actually texted "Where is your room?  Do you have condoms?"  I agree that is not consent, but it is pretty darn close.  In recent cases, the guys may have not been charged by the courts, but they face discilpline from the school, and when it is he said vs she said, they are siding with the women.  The guys are kicked out of school.  In one case the guy was accepted at another school, but when the 2nd school found out about the case he was denied entry.

I talk to my son about protecting himself from being in this type of situation.  

[Deleted]

Not surprisingly, a story showed up on Yahoo about woman on woman rape.  It's a personal experience sort of thing, and she admits some of the "mistakes" she made such as not deadbolting her door, etc.  

It is really sad that victims allow themselves to continue be victimized by this type of thinking.

Here is the link

[Politically_Incorrect12]

Jun 10, 2016 10:51:07 GMT -5 @bamafan1954 said:

Not surprisingly, a story showed up on Yahoo about woman on woman rape.  It's a personal experience sort of thing, and she admits some of the "mistakes" she made such as not deadbolting her door, etc.  

It is really sad that victims allow themselves to continue be victimized by this type of thinking.

Here is the link

People who have had a crime committed against them naturally try to think of ways to decrease the likelihood of it happening to them again. It's not blaming themselves, but a natural thing to do after something bad happens.

[Miss Tequila]

Jun 10, 2016 12:19:45 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

Jun 10, 2016 10:51:07 GMT -5 @bamafan1954 said:

Not surprisingly, a story showed up on Yahoo about woman on woman rape.  It's a personal experience sort of thing, and she admits some of the "mistakes" she made such as not deadbolting her door, etc.  

It is really sad that victims allow themselves to continue be victimized by this type of thinking.

Here is the link

People who have had a crime committed against them naturally try to think of ways to decrease the likelihood of it happening to them again. It's not blaming themselves, but a natural thing to do after something bad happens.

I agree.  thank God I have never had a violent crime commited against me.  I left my car windows down years ago because I was only going to be a minute...and it was hot out!  Sure enough, some moron cleared out everything of value from my car in the minutes I was gone.  I was not to blame for the theft but you can bet I have never left my windows down or my car unlocked again!  This wasn't an area where the thug was going to smash my window because it was fairly populated and that would have been obvious.

[Opti]

Jun 10, 2016 7:17:20 GMT -5 @bamafan1954 said:

Call me naïve (because I am), but if a guy is capable of penetration, isn't he capable of giving consent?  No Doesn't biology shut him down otherwise? No

I grew up a long time ago with no brothers, no male cousins or friends, etc.  But I thought biology took care of a guy's consent problem.

This does NOT reference the OP's examples.

The consent problem as you put it is whether a male or female wants to have sex that specific time with that specific partner.

It is one of the false beliefs we have as a culture, that men cannot be raped if it appears their penis is up for it. I have no brothers, but a fair amount of male friends. That said, I have not asked them about men being raped and only have talked to one guy who was sexually assaulted by his Dad and his brother.

I do read a lot and took a human sexuality elective in college. Its amazing how much fantasy and science fiction addresses rape and men sexually assaulting other men. Based on that fiction alone, I'd believe the body can be turned on but the person involved mentally horrified and often unable to stop the assault. I think it is a related conflict to children who are sexually assaulted. If they like any portion of it, does this mean they are bad people and deserved it? (NO, IMO.)

[Deleted]

Jun 10, 2016 7:26:32 GMT -5 oped said:

Jun 10, 2016 2:55:39 GMT -5 @xmascookie said:

Women as the rapist sure seem to be picking up in the headlines lately.

Mostly teachers and 13, 14, 15 year old boys. They usually don't seem to receive anywhere near the punishment a male would either.

I am sure it's because boys "always want it."

So she got less than three months? 

Well I wouldn't use that case as a yardstick and it isn't a she but multiple cases with multiple women.

I know that in studies done on sentencing for sex crimes women receive lighter penalties than men do for similar crimes.

 I remember reading of one of those studies not too long ago.

 Maybe that has changed in a few years? I don't know , I hope so .

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Women as the rapist sure seem to be picking up in the headlines lately.

Mostly teachers and 13, 14, 15 year old boys. They usually don't seem to receive anywhere near the punishment a male would either.

I am sure it's because boys "always want it."

Yes and that's an issue.  It's a *gasp* gender stereotype that men always want to have sex and therefore if they "get it up" they must have actually wanted it.  Never mind erections are not something 100% with a man's control.

Telling women that we always have to be the ones to prevent rape because as my husband has put it "I know what men are like" causes men to be seen LESS as a victim because if men are always wanting sex them they can't "truly be raped".

Therefore men aren't taken seriously either when they come forward.   A man is even LESS likely to be believed because we hammer into people's heads that men/boys are constant horn dogs.  That's the reason I am given for making sure I don't drink too much, don't dress inappropriately, don't sleep around and give men the wrong idea. . .etc.

Is it really that hard to grasp that biases about rape affect both genders?

But since we can't shut up about what a woman is/is not supposed to do we can't have a serious discussion about what to do to prevent MEN from  becoming victims themselves.

[Peace Of Mind]

Jun 9, 2016 21:58:33 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

Jun 9, 2016 21:36:36 GMT -5 Peace Of Mind said:

I have no idea when alcohol is involved.  Yes should be yes and no should be no and the people involved should be able to say either even if slurred.  Mutual tearing off of clothes should be under a no fault sexual experience.  So I suggest video taping the experience or getting a document signed to CYA.     

The Stanford case is a no brainer.  That dude is one sick MFer and should be put away for a long time.  And those 2 Swedish heroes should be getting great things in their lives and soon. 

I think that is part of the issue where there is a line of thinking that suggests the definition of rape should also include morning after regret because an intoxicated person cannot give legal consent, and even if both parties were drunk, fully wake, and consenting, there is still this push that the men should bear the blame for it.  So in essence men are still responsible and have to deal with the consequences of their decisions when they are drunk, but the same does not seem to apply to women.  If a guy is drunk and has sex with a woman that he regrets sleeping with the next morning, even if the woman was completely sober, society and I am guessing some people on this board would feel differently about the situation than if the woman was drunk and the man was completely sober.  For all the dislike of abstinence only education, it seems that we are trying to tell men that if you do have sex, you better hope she does not change her mind in the morning, even if you both were wanting it in the moment...so to be safe, you probably should avoid sex.  

Saying that hat is not blaming the victim, it is not saying that no does not mean no...it is however saying that it is not fair to place all the decision making blame on the men IF the women involved also wanted the same thing, but that is what people are wanting to do in regard to drinking and making bad decisions that they may or may not have made while sober.  

I agree with both you and Oped on this.  As other's have stated throughout this topic regret and rape are two very different things.  But how do people protect themselves to keep from being accused of one when it's the other?  I just don't have the answer other than what I stated on page 1. 

[billisonboard]

Jun 10, 2016 14:46:26 GMT -5 Peace Of Mind said:

Jun 9, 2016 21:58:33 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

I think that is part of the issue where there is a line of thinking that suggests the definition of rape should also include morning after regret because an intoxicated person cannot give legal consent, and even if both parties were drunk, fully wake, and consenting, there is still this push that the men should bear the blame for it.  So in essence men are still responsible and have to deal with the consequences of their decisions when they are drunk, but the same does not seem to apply to women.  If a guy is drunk and has sex with a woman that he regrets sleeping with the next morning, even if the woman was completely sober, society and I am guessing some people on this board would feel differently about the situation than if the woman was drunk and the man was completely sober.  For all the dislike of abstinence only education, it seems that we are trying to tell men that if you do have sex, you better hope she does not change her mind in the morning, even if you both were wanting it in the moment...so to be safe, you probably should avoid sex.  

Saying that hat is not blaming the victim, it is not saying that no does not mean no...it is however saying that it is not fair to place all the decision making blame on the men IF the women involved also wanted the same thing, but that is what people are wanting to do in regard to drinking and making bad decisions that they may or may not have made while sober.  

I agree with both you and Oped on this.  As other's have stated throughout this topic regret and rape are two very different things.  But how do people protect themselves to keep from being accused of one when it's the other?  I just don't have the answer other than what I stated on page 1. 

Protecting one's self from the accusation is one side of it. I think that looking at what exactly creates the get drunk, have sex, feel regret situation is important to consider also.

[tloonya]

2 drunken females agreed to have sexy with whom?

[tloonya]

Jun 10, 2016 10:02:42 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Jun 10, 2016 9:56:34 GMT -5 bean29 said:

This is pretty much the issue I have.  I can think of only very few instances when I was dating that we didn't go to a bar or a party where Alcohol was involved.  I don't like getting sick, so I rarely get extremely drunk or wasted, but I am a small person, so I may have been "legally drunk" on occasion.  I would not however, say that I have ever not given consent that I am aware of.  There is one situation where I now question if I was given a roofie, and the only reason is b/c my friend questioned if I had sex with someone the next morning - she was sure I had, I was sure I did not - not sure I knew what a roofie was at that time.

I am not sure how to measure too drunk to give consent.  I am not sure it is reasonable that if any alcohol was involved you can not give consent.  If you are going to drink and date socially - how are you going to assure that you will not be too drunk to assess your or your partner's ability to give legal consent?  We would all pretty much have to give up drinking - and I really don't think that is going to happen. 

Same here.    But looking back to my college days, I can't ever remember getting consent before having sex.   As I mentioned, I have a hard time talking about sex, so maybe that is just a me issue, but I do not think I ever asked a girl, do you want to have sex, or are you ok with having sex, etc.    Granted I didn't have sex with many people and we were dating at the time, but I still never got consent.  

I am glad I am not dating anymore.  I am definitely not cut out for it. 

Lol Arch! I do to never remember to give a
Convent to any men. Maybe if they asked...
I think they knew better! Lol
If you ask every decent girl must say NO and
do it right after when you push a little.
I guess if I was supposed to concent I would
Be still a virgin until today!
So I guess every man was a rapist in their
lives. You demons! Lol

[OldCoyote]

Jun 10, 2016 9:19:58 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Jun 9, 2016 21:58:33 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

I think that is part of the issue where there is a line of thinking that suggests the definition of rape should also include morning after regret because an intoxicated person cannot give legal consent, and even if both parties were drunk, fully wake, and consenting, there is still this push that the men should bear the blame for it.  So in essence men are still responsible and have to deal with the consequences of their decisions when they are drunk, but the same does not seem to apply to women.  If a guy is drunk and has sex with a woman that he regrets sleeping with the next morning, even if the woman was completely sober, society and I am guessing some people on this board would feel differently about the situation than if the woman was drunk and the man was completely sober.  For all the dislike of abstinence only education, it seems that we are trying to tell men that if you do have sex, you better hope she does not change her mind in the morning, even if you both were wanting it in the moment...so to be safe, you probably should avoid sex.  

Saying that hat is not blaming the victim, it is not saying that no does not mean no...it is however saying that it is not fair to place all the decision making blame on the men IF the women involved also wanted the same thing, but that is what people are wanting to do in regard to drinking and making bad decisions that they may or may not have made while sober.  

I agree and as a woman, I find it incredibly offensive that a man could be held responsible for my poor choices.  I'm not talking rape  where I am assaulted or rape where I am unconscious.  But I've been drunk in my life and I've done stuff that I wouldn't do sober.  That is completely on me and no one else.  I will never understand why women want to make women in general appear so weak that we can't even make our own decisions...but the same is not true for men.  Which says to me that women need protecting and men can take care of themselves.  Maybe it's just me but I would think that would have feminists screaming for equality...but it seems we only want equality when it can get us ahead in life.  When it comes to personal responsibility...nope, not my fault...it's all on the guy

ETA: And before you all jump all over me like you like to do, poor choices is not "wearing slutty clothes" or any other idiot thing you will accuse me of thinking.  Poor choices is getting shit faced, having sex with someone I wouldn't normally have sex with, wake up with major regret and accuse him of rape.  Because I know damn well there are a LOT of women on this board that have had drunken sex in their youth...because a lot of us have talked about it.  So I guess almost all of us were raped at some point because we couldn't give consent if we were drunk. 

Miss  Tequila, Thank for being incredibly honest in your post!

[OldCoyote]

Just to level the playing field here.

You women need to put on your chastity belt, leave the key with a friend you are not going out with.

See how easy O.C. leveled the playing field!

[milee]

Jun 11, 2016 7:50:16 GMT -5 Ratchets said:

Jun 10, 2016 9:19:58 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

 There was a case that an old boss was involved in and it just came up about this sort of thing - he was with a woman and they were out and both drinking, and she said she was raped.  I actually saw him that night and the situation was that they were together and both all over each other.  The problem was that he was married as far as I could tell - she wasn't forced by any means from what I saw - he's a douchebag obviously and I thought he was for other reasons more pertaining to work - but from what I saw it wouldn't have been rape. 

I can see how that would be so hard to defend against in court though.  Especially since he was married, so his character is already questioned.  I don't know how it worked out - I didn't write the letter he asked for and maybe I should have - but from what I saw he was a cheater but not a rapist.

And this is the type of attitude that lets men get away with rape.  

You're implying that if a couple is getting along well in public - even kissing and cuddling - that the woman has automatically consented to having sex with the man later?  That she has no right or ability to say "no" to sex after that?  That you can conclude from observing them in public that "she wasn't forced" later on?  How the heck do you have any idea what happened with the couple later in private?  I think you have daughters, so picture one of your daughters.  She is at a dance or club with a date.  They are having a great time.  They dance close, kiss and look like a couple that's already intimate.  Later on, does she have to agree to sex or can she say "no"?  If she says no, would you be angry at people who said that because she was friendly earlier, that must mean she wasn't "forced".

This is a huge part of the attitude we need to change in our society, and part of what i think we can be educating boys and men on.