zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 22, 2016 10:00:18 GMT -5
I can tell you the new hot business around here. Dog bathing/grooming by appointment. People don't like their dogs crated. She's booked weeks in advance.
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KaraBoo
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Post by KaraBoo on May 22, 2016 10:01:00 GMT -5
Then you need to also be surveying those people. The craft stores shouldn't mind you surveying at their establishments if your services wouldn't compete, because cross advertising for such might help them as well. Get out and start asking. While I think 5-10$ a table brings the space to more reasonable for the buyer, it makes the 'will business support itself' question bigger. How many tables will you have? How many would you reasonably be able to expect to fill an hour? Not sure on the "how many tables filled per hour" - but I was advised that what ever I calculated/estimated at my table rate at, to drop it to only 10% of my initial estimate. Of course, that was based on a severely under-researched, failed business from 30 years ago.
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on May 22, 2016 10:01:04 GMT -5
I have 20 years experience running a small business with DH. Some advice.
In our case I was higher earner, good job with benefits. DH was able to run business when we could afford to not earn anything. And he didn't take home any money for a while.
Small business loans are really only for those who have collateral or have a successful business. We were never able to get help with funding to start. We were able to get business loans after several years in business when we wanted to move and expand.
Storefronts near big businesses are VERY expensive. I would start small, maybe off the beaten path. Especially if you are going to rely on marketing/ word of mouth vs people driving by. Our first store (copying business) was in a building with insurance type office not facing road. We eventually moved up to retail storefront.
Where I used to live there was a business similar to what you describe but they were focused on pottery. They did birthday parties where you rented out the place and had a pottery party. It is not my thing but my kids went to the place a few times and the business was around for a while. Maybe doing a party type place could bring in business
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on May 22, 2016 10:01:24 GMT -5
That makes sense. But, why wouldn't JoAnn fabrics or any the other craft stores have the materials they need? They have inventory. And, obviously that will affect your costs in being able to offer what is needed for any particular craft. Sorry! My statement wasn't clear - craft stores have the materials - they just don't have the space. I'd be offering the space. Do people really craft that much?
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on May 22, 2016 10:04:24 GMT -5
I wouldn't say do it or don't do it. I don't know what people are willing to pay for. However, at first glance, to me it seems a like a great part time, extra income business. Whether it can become a full time model remains to be seen, but i would be very cautious to not jump into the fantasy of this as a full time business. Accept the reality of how it grows. And, don't quit your job or take on a lot of debt unless and until you have really tested the waters.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on May 22, 2016 10:04:38 GMT -5
I can tell you the new hot business around here. Dog bathing/grooming by appointment. People don't like their dogs crated. She's booked weeks in advance. And though some get out of business. Because people don't have enough money and learn grooming their animals themselves
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 22, 2016 10:06:10 GMT -5
Not here. People work and want their dogs cleaned and groomed.
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KaraBoo
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Post by KaraBoo on May 22, 2016 10:06:43 GMT -5
Sorry! My statement wasn't clear - craft stores have the materials - they just don't have the space. I'd be offering the space. Do people really craft that much? (chuckle) YES!! That's why I'm here asking for questions on the business side. I've noticed several people I've talked to in my personal life that ask this same question - it is always coming from someone who isn't a creative, but rather a logical based person. The creatives I've talked to were behind this idea 100% and think it's a great plan. Personally, I'm right down the middle - I have to create, it's in my soul, but with a plan, because my brain won't let me do it any other way.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 22, 2016 10:06:48 GMT -5
We even have 24 hour doggy daycare.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2016 10:07:00 GMT -5
Churches are your 'competition' too. Research if they offer classes and spaces for their congregants to meet for things like crafts and classes. Most do it part as mission so don't charge as much.
It made me think and calculate. We pay the church 750$ for the year. So, about 3.82 an hour for the entire place basically, kitchen, gym, classrooms, cafeteria, piano.... I'm sure that doesn't cover winter heat. But they aren't doing it for profit...
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on May 22, 2016 10:10:47 GMT -5
People will pay for all sorts of things. People pay for work, convenience, dirty jobs, entertainment and all manner of things. You have to find the price point that brings value to them and that they value. I value the time and effort it takes to groom my dog versus doing it myself. My dog requires a lot of clipping, shaving and a nail trim which i hate cutting my dog's nails. For crafting, that isn't my thing so i don't know the value of that. I would certainly go to a class just for the fun of it and to learn something new. But, i don't know what would be a reasonable fee for that where she lives. For me, i wouldn't be opposed to paying but depends what type of craft and how long, etc.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2016 10:12:10 GMT -5
Do people really craft that much? (chuckle) YES!! That's why I'm here asking for questions on the business side. I've noticed several people I've talked to in my personal life that ask this same question - it is always coming from someone who isn't a creative, but rather a logical based person. The creatives I've talked to were behind this idea 100% and think it's a great plan. Personally, I'm right down the middle - I have to create, it's in my soul, but with a plan, because my brain won't let me do it any other way. Me too. But with that comes a non-aversion to glitter . Don't most people that committed have a dedicated space of their own? How often did your crafty friends say they would use such a space and how much would they spend? Realistically? There is a reason you don't have your friends edit/ give critical feedback on your writing Business wise, is research, research, research, not speculate. Run real numbers with minimal traffic needed to break even, make wage, make profit... Etc.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on May 22, 2016 10:18:25 GMT -5
Well, it easy to say run numbers and do research. But, there are a lot of unknowns that you can't run numbers for. Yes, price out the building rent, that is the first step. Price out the costs of tables and supplies, that is the next step. Do you need some type of liability insurance in dealing with people and holding classes? You already have a basic idea since you have run these types of classes. Then, the next step is to Go For It. By that i mean, go ahead and take the plunge to schedule your first event. Plan it, get the space and get people signed up. See how that event goes and go from there. Maybe people aren't as interested as you think. People are pressed for time and lots of people talk about how they want to do this or that but never do. Then evaluate what you did right and wrong and what you could do to improve the experience. You are selling an experience more than you are selling supplies so that is key. Then, maybe you want to hold these events on a quarterly or monthly basis just to get your name out there and start buildling clientele. If that becomes very successful, then you can branch out with more events and a wider variety and more ways to offer the experience and service.
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on May 22, 2016 10:31:44 GMT -5
As you check on your potential competition, I would also check the specialty craft stores. For example, I had a family friend who owned a knitting store. She sold supplies and then also had a work room that people could either book and where she taught classes.
to be honest, to make this sort thing work, I think you would need to have pricey equipment on hand, the type of equipment that most home crafters won't buy. I also think that you would need to have instructor led classes. Because I think it's unlikely that you would have a viable business model depending on the casual crafter to come in and book a table for the expressed purpose of saving themselves clean up.
i know of few places that have this sort of business. It's for ceramic painting and painting in general. People come in and book a table and purchase a package and they get all the supplies they need for that particular activity.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on May 22, 2016 10:38:27 GMT -5
I'm a crafter. I have only skimmed, because of time.
I think you need to figure out who your crafting market is.
Our local needlework shop has stitch-ins twice a month. Once on Saturday, and once on Wednesday. They don't charge anything. They also offer space for paint-ins, etc. That's where I go, when have time. The stitchers also go to a Senior Center/Library once a week. They get to stitch there for free all day.
We used to have a quilt shop that offered classroom space for free. They are out of business, because no one wanted to buy it. (Well, I was considering it, but not the right time.)
All the scrapbooking stores in my area (I live in a city of 200K) have gone out of business.
There are SO MANY coffee shops around town that have knitters/hookers come in.
I'm still a "youngester" at 40. Most of the women now, that quilt, and do needle arts in my area are old. Like 60-80 old. You need to think about accessibility.
What kinds of tables/chairs are you going to use? Quilters have much different needs than knitters. Quilters need irons, ironing boards, cutting tables, etc. What is the lighting light in the space you are looking at. That would be an issue, to.
I would carefully think about hours. I need a space. Daytime hours are worth nothing to me during the week, because as a working mom of 3, I have to work. I can't burn up a ton of vacation time for "me" time these days.
Most moms ARE working out of the home moms these days. Even DH who works part time, doesn't have 3 hours a day to just sit and do what he pleases.
Retirees will find free/less expensive alternatives.
If you do this, you'll need to partner up with your local groups: the knitting groups, quiliting groups, needlework guild. Advertise with them. Offer members discounted rates.
Honestly, the clean up after yourself part is moot, unless you are going to serve meals. I've gone to various crafting retreats for 15 years, now, and we clean up after ourselves. We are not a bunch of tween kids that don't listen. Unless you are going to host messy crafts, like clay making, I don't really see the value in it.
There is couple that run a retreat center about 20 minutes from town. They also own a long-arm quilt machine (actually, two). And both things, quilting quilts and running a crafting retreat center IS their lively hood.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2016 10:39:17 GMT -5
Well, it easy to say run numbers and do research. But, there are a lot of unknowns that you can't run numbers for. Yes, price out the building rent, that is the first step. Price out the costs of tables and supplies, that is the next step. Do you need some type of liability insurance in dealing with people and holding classes? You already have a basic idea since you have run these types of classes. Then, the next step is to Go For It. By that i mean, go ahead and take the plunge to schedule your first event. Plan it, get the space and get people signed up. See how that event goes and go from there. Maybe people aren't as interested as you think. People are pressed for time and lots of people talk about how they want to do this or that but never do. Then evaluate what you did right and wrong and what you could do to improve the experience. You are selling an experience more than you are selling supplies so that is key. Then, maybe you want to hold these events on a quarterly or monthly basis just to get your name out there and start buildling clientele. If that becomes very successful, then you can branch out with more events and a wider variety and more ways to offer the experience and service. She needs to research people offering space. But she also needs to survey crafters,Moho would be the clientele, to see if they would actually use the service. She doesn't want to plan and offer events. She wants to rent space. That is much more difficult to do on a small/part time basis, as having the space is her product/service. Specialy craft stores is good. libraries too. Any space with a community room.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2016 10:41:24 GMT -5
Surveying individuals in local crafts groups is a good idea G!
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on May 22, 2016 10:46:55 GMT -5
I also think you are going after the wrong demographics by looking at big box stores.
The crafters I know are snobby about their products. I have been told time and time again to stay away from the cheap fabric at Joanne's if I want to make a quilt that lasts.
Yarns: I'm trying to use up my acrylic stash so that I can make room for the better yarns. If I want sock yarn, I do not buy Vanna's Best Products. I would rather purchase a $25-30 skein of hand-dyed sock yarn with a little bit of cashmere or some other non-wool fiber.
I rarely shop at a big box store for my cross stitch and hardanger projects. I don't want Aida fabric. I want hand-dyed linens, overdyed floss, and these places also do not sell scissors that I need. They do not also sell the patterns I'm interested in. I don't really buy kits anymore..because I'm confident enough in my skills that I tweak patterns if something isn't pleasing for me.
I will shop for DMC thread at a big box, but I wait for a sale.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on May 22, 2016 11:01:26 GMT -5
My thought for renting specifically for crafters is because not all groups will "mesh". The fishing club is not going to want to meet while a music group is practicing their sets. I want the home schooler groups to come in, along with the grandma babysitting her grandchildren for 3 hours and needs a project to do without making a mess at her own home. I want to be able to say "Glitter to your heart's content! I'll clean up the mess!" I want to be able to say, come singles, come groups - all are welcome! You don't have to ONLY be doing quilting or scrapbooking at this specific time.
See, I wouldn't agree with this, either. Yesterday, I snuck in an hour to go to my LNS. I made a cutting mistake with my hardanger a few weeks ago. I went there, specifically, because there were no kids and I was betting that someone there would be able to help me. For me, I don't get as much of a break if I go somewhere else if kids are crying, screaming, fussing, whatever in the background. Don't get me wrong, as a parent of "one of those" kids, I totally understand. But, If I deal with it 23 hours a day, that's enough. I'm not going somewhere to pay to listen to other kids behaving like mine if I get a chance to run away. And if kids run around, do you want to take the risk that they know how to behave perfectly with people that need wheel chairs, canes, walkers to move around? And what are you going to do about things like ambiance? We listen to music at craft retreats...Again, I don't want to pay to go somewhere to have Barney songs piped in because kids are crafting with Grandma and I'm in a mood to want to here more adult music, even if it's the top 40 or beetles songs. I also don't want mess all over my projects. If I knew there was going to be glitter on the table next to me, I probably wouldn't come. I wouldn't sit at table that had an open container of glue out, or markers, if I was knitting or doing needlework. I don't do that at home, because I don't want to risk my stuff getting ruined.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 22, 2016 11:06:24 GMT -5
Here you'd be competing with the library where groups can book a room for free. I don't see people paying g just so they don't have to clean up. The art museum also has classrooms and so does hobby lobby.
All the craft stores have tools your average crafter does not. I need felt to fix a stuffed animal. Hobby Lobby cut and measured it for me for free. I'm not going to pay to rent a room for that as a hobby crafter. People who are serious like my grandma often already have those tools.
I'm not sure there is enough allure in not having to clean up to get people to pay when there are so many free options. I'd father keep my money and do the clean up myself.
Also agree with gira. I needlepoint and I'm often doing it as a gift. I am not going to take it someplace where I risk glitter, glue, paint or grubby kids ruining it.
Quilters are even more rabid. It's not a cheap hobby.
You're not going to get all the people to share a room.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on May 22, 2016 11:28:52 GMT -5
It's not a cheap hobby.
Any time you use top of the line materials, a hobby becomes quickly expensive. I realized a long time ago that if I was going to spend hours knitting a sweater, that knitting it with $2/skein acrylic yarn was a huge waste of time. For this amount of manual effort, I was going to buy the best yarn that I could and it gets rapidly expensive. When I got sick, I knitted to kill time and went online and ordered yarn and supplies. I think my first order was $250, second was another $100 (in about 6 months). I bought good supplies and yarn, but kept patterns simple as my brain on narcotics wasn't 100%. Several people got very expensive merino/alpaca wool scarves for Christmas the following year that probably cost about $60 in yarn each. I could have bought cheaper scarves, but this gave me something to do.
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milee
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Post by milee on May 22, 2016 11:38:52 GMT -5
First and foremost, you need an overall idea of how much rent and OH costs, so you have at least a bit of an idea what your monthly nut would be on something like this. Then you can do some basic reasonableness checks on it. For example, if you know between rent, utilities, insurance, salaries etc your monthly costs would run $6000 - $8000, then you can do the quick mental math that under your plan to rent tables, you'd need to rent 600 - 800 table hours a month in prime time or 1200 - 1600 table hours in nonprime time just to cover your costs. These are fake numbers, so not ones to use in your decision but just using this example, I'd say this would be a tough business to make profitable because those are a huge number of table hours you'd need to rent no matter how big your market.
No matter what your monthly nut is, IMHO you're going to need to have multiple, diverse income streams to make this work. Just eyeballing it, I'd question if there are enough people who just want space and who are willing to pay for space and clean up; that model is way too limited. You also don't want to be in the business of trying to break into and cater to the hardcore experts in certain craft fields - you will never be specific enough to lure away the person who knows she pays only $3.82 an hour at XYZ or is willing to sit in the awful, sterile back room at Michael's because it's free. You want to use a page from Painting with a Twist and appeal to the much more numerous masses who don't even know they want to craft or might be willing to craft if it were an interesting project in a cool space with fun people.
To develop multiple income streams, picture a concept like "Made", "Made in Dallas" or "By Hand"- a place for locally made goods. The front corner is a small, artisanal coffee shop serving locally roasted beans, locally made pastries, etc. That space is open and flows into the work area. The overall ambiance is bright, hip and fun - decorated by local artists. There are both open tables - configurable for different crafts - and comfy, squishy seating couches/chairs for people who want to hang out and knit, chat, etc. It's inviting and fun, the kind of place you'd hang out with a friend even if you weren't planning to craft... but while you and the friend are there, you see the crafting fun or see the appealing calendar showing the fun upcoming events and decide to join in. You have not only regular, planned crafts where people can just show up and do the project (higher price to just show up, lower price if they sign up in advance to help you with materials planning). BYOB to encourage the fun. In fact, some nights you also have local craft brewers conducting tastings, etc.
Over time, once you see what you attract, you should develop some "regulars" by having some set nights. For example, you find you have a group of avid painters so Tuesdays becomes Painting Tuesdays, etc. Don't do this at first, though since you won't know which groups have fun people and will take off versus which groups will struggle to attract people. Definitely invite local artists or specialists in to conduct classes. The "Made" model will live or die based on how inviting you make the space, how fun your staff and customers you attract are, how you pack the calendar with interesting/fun events and how you manage the social media campaign (Facebook, Twitter, Instagram) to let people know what's happening and create buzz. You could do double the business if you (or an employee) is a savvy marketer who can create excitement and lure in new customers with upcoming offerings.
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milee
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Post by milee on May 22, 2016 11:47:24 GMT -5
Some of your other questions -
Should you stock supplies? Not just "no" but "Hell no." There is no win here. You will not only alienate the craft stores you will need to partner with, but you will tear your hair out finding, managing and selling that inventory. It will be one of your single largest hassles and it will net you almost no money. Run. Run fast, run far and don't do it. The only way I'd touch that is by integrating it with your "Made" local vibe and having a cute, artsy armoire where people can leave or take extra supplies. Have a little paint left in the container... leave it here for the next guy. Need a little paint... check the freecycle-style cabinet. Creates community and keeps you out of the supplies business.
Grants or loans? No again. Grants are a bit of a myth anyways, so don't waste time with all the scams out there. As for a loan, honestly, if you need one for this type of business you probably shouldn't be doing it. Spend the next year saving your money and figuring out how to live on your DH's salary so you can fund this yourself. During that year, you can develop your business plan and could even start developing a customer base by doing art projects in rented space on different nights. But don't get a big loan for this.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2016 11:48:22 GMT -5
Agreed. You can't just offer the same type of space being offered elsewhere. Cleaning up after isn't enough to attract people. How do you distinguish your service?
I love what milee is describing, but I don't think that's in any way what you were thinking of?
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2016 11:50:34 GMT -5
I wouldn't stock inventory for sale. But I think she might need more on hand than paper plates and cups to attract people to the space.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2016 11:58:10 GMT -5
Milee, do you have any links for those places. All I can find is painting with a twist. Thanks!
Eta:as I was trying to look them up I found lots of meetup craft groups. Another place to survey and research for potential customers.
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milee
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Post by milee on May 22, 2016 12:11:57 GMT -5
For the first year, you will need to be laser focused on what will make you the most money. There will be too much to do, so you'll have to pick and choose. Examples:
Will make big $$$ immediately - Planned classes from a variety of experts - MAKE SURE THE EXPERTS ARE FUN - in a variety of fields like knitting, ceramic glazing (can transport to offsite kiln to fire), painting, planning and starting a garden (outdoors or can be container based for apartment/condo - tap into local food movement), basic sewing survival (how to hem pants, replace a button), flower arranging, scrapbooking, etc. - Form partnerships with local craft stores. You are not competing, you are working together to create more crafters who will buy more from them too. Find ways for them to advertise for you - inserts in their bags, manned table out front, etc - and find ways for you to advertise for them - flyers, classes "sponsored by", map of local craft suppliers, etc. - If you need employees, make darn sure they are fun, patient and kind. Even if you have to pay a couple bucks more an hour to find the right person, this will pay back in spades. JoAnn fabric is a great example of how NOT to do this. The local JoAnn is staffed by a bunch of grumpy crones who either can't get a job elsewhere or want a discount for their hobby; they are unhelpful, sour and drive customers away. Can't tell you how many times I have left the store with nothing rather than deal with the negative employees. Your business is all about a person's hobby and people do a hobby to have fun. Your employees absolutely have to be part of their good experience.
Will not make big $$$ immediately, but will grow the business so will turn into big $$$ - Social media campaign - especially good descriptions for the calendar and advertising upcoming events, posting pictures of fun current events - Determining which groups are popular and fun. Developing regular nights or times for those interests so you can grow those groups
Will not make big $$$, but might/might not increase traffic or relationships - Partnering with local groups that might want to do crafts. Homeschoolers, clubs, employee groups, etc.
Will not make big $$$, doesn't develop relationships, customers or traffic - Social media overkill - example is posting a picture of every customer who does a project or every project made there - Getting too specialized in a certain craft (there will always be a competing specialty store owned and run by a person who loves and breathes ____ and often operates her store at no profit, just out of love) - Trying to stock supplies. Even using your paint example - just think for a minute about how many different types and colors of paints there are... and that's just one supply.
Think of crafts that everybody can do.
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milee
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Post by milee on May 22, 2016 12:12:22 GMT -5
Milee, do you have any links for those places. What places?
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2016 12:15:33 GMT -5
picture a concept like "Made", "Made in Dallas" or "By Hand"- a place for locally made goods.
Lol. I thought you were describing places you've been... Maybe you were just developing an idea...
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milee
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Post by milee on May 22, 2016 12:19:13 GMT -5
The market of dedicated, specialty crafters in any one field is small, but the number of people who might want to do a fun, crafty activity in a good atmosphere surrounded by fun people is huge. So think about how to create crafts for that crowd. That's who Painting with a Twist taps into. People who are skilled painters don't want to do an activity in a group and they usually have their own space and supplies worked out so they're a terrible target market, but idiots like my friends and I who don't know how to paint but like to drink wine while we mess around doing a project with friends are plentiful - those people are who you go after.
Another big risk is that this whole thing is incredibly vulnerable to the condition of the overall economy. This type of activity is the first thing people will cut back on in tough times. Not sure you can diversify enough to really mitigate that risk. You could soften the blow a little bit by having a high enough quality coffee shop that people feel the coffee is a small indulgence they can still do when strapped or by tapping into markets that are slightly less impacted by recessions like wedding/bridal. BTW, do whatever you can to tap into wedding/bridal, people spend way more there than anywhere else. Here are some ideas for attracting some of that cash:
Class on calligraphy or other fancy writing for addressing wedding invitations Class on crafting your own wedding invitations Class on crafting your own "thank you" notes (could be bridal or nonbridal)
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