Should we help or stay out of it?

[honeysalt]

Mostly a lurker, but I would appreciate some input on a financial and personal situation.

DH has an ex (I'll call her Amy) who had a horrific childhood.  She was removed from multiple foster homes due to abuse.  They haven't dated for over 15 years, but have remained friends.  There is zero jealousy or concern about fidelity on my end. 

Amy is currently living in another state and working a minimum wage job.  She has some health problems and is in a bad relationship and recently tried to take her own life.  She was given in patient treatment and is now in outpatient treatment.

DH would like to help her out financially. As in move her back to our city and set her up with an apartment for 3 months.  He would also help her get a job.  He wants to make strict conditions  for the financial support.

I feel very torn.  This woman has no one and, I respect my DH for keeping his relationship with her all of these years, and for caring enough to want to intervene.

We can afford to do this.  We don't and can't have children, we are fully funding retirement, etc..  However, we live a fairly modest lifestyle and I am afraid that I will end up feeling annoyed about making sacrifices to help support his ex.  On the other hand, I have a great life and could possibly make a difference for this woman and feel guilty for being selfish.  Finally, I am worried about DH wanting to make rules for her.  I understand he wants to give her guidance, but that just seems like a boundary mess waiting to happen, and gifts need to be made without strings.

WWYD?

[msventoux]

I wouldn't do it, but I'm not that nice of a person either.

The woman is an adult, and presumably could have done something since becoming an adult to better her lot in life rather than staying stuck in a minimum wage job and bad relationships.  I get having a horrible childhood, but at some point you have to try to move beyond that.

Has she expressed any interest in improving her life and taken any steps at all towards doing so?  If not, all the external help in the world is unlikely to make any long term difference. 

I would be more inclined to offer emotional support and practical advice at this point.  If she made strides forward with those, then I would be more willing to provide limited financial assistance...without strings, that just breeds resentments on both sides. 

[kittensaver]

I would hook her up with professional services in your area. She sounds like she is in need of a good amount of social services - even if they are temporary - until she can get back on her feet.

I would help her get to the DPSS office, the city or county department of mental health, or whoever handles social services for indigent adults in your part of the world. I would hold her hand while she walked through the process and completed the paperwork. I would assist her with rides to her various appointments to get her life set up. I would occasionally take her out for a meal. I would be her friend, cheerleader and *personal supporter* - -  but I would not give her money. Not one red cent.

Not only does YOU giving her money knock her out of eligibility for social programs (because you become her 'other source of support'), but like it or not, it WILL create perceived dependence. And you are right - there WILL be boundary issues. And ultimately potentially resentment issues too.

It's hard. Don't run in the face of a needy person, but don't let her take the easy way out by handing her money, because it won't stop. Trust me. BTDT.

Just my two cents. Good luck whatever you decide.

[giramomma]

Stay out.

[zibazinski]

Send her a list of services in HER area. Not yours. This has trouble written all over it.

[honeysalt]

You are all right, and what you are saying is exactly what I would tell someone else. 

To address a couple of points raised.  Yes, she has tried multiple times to better herself.  As a foster kid, she had some pretty generous scholarships and she attended and then dropped out of college many times.  Her energy has been scattered. 

The only reason I haven't been able to completely let this go is her background.  I am a resilient person who has had to overcome some challenges, but I genuinely think I would be a drug addict if I had walked her shoes.  She isn't, so she has that going for her. 

Kittensaver, you bring up great points about social services, dependency, and money being the easy way out.  I'll let my DH know that if he wants to help her, that is the best route.  He has given me veto power over any help. 

[thyme4change]

What kinds of rules and conditions does your husband want to implement? Does he expect repayment? If you want to gift her some resources, the only condition you can actually guarantee is that this is the one and only time.

[honeysalt]

He wants to make the conditions that she works out 4x a week (because that is what her doctor told her to do for her medical condition), continues therapy, learns to cook, and goes to work. 

He doesn't want or expect repayment. 

Typing this out makes me see how absurd this is.  We can't have kids, but we also don't have kids because neither of us is suited to be a parent to a child or woman in her late thirties. 

[kittensaver]

Apr 28, 2016 17:51:42 GMT -5 honeysalt said:

He wants to make the conditions that she works out 4x a week (because that is what her doctor told her to do for her medical condition), continues therapy, learns to cook, and goes to work. 

He doesn't want or expect repayment. 

Typing this out makes me see how absurd this is.  We can't have kids, but we also don't have kids because neither of us is suited to be a parent to a child or woman in her late thirties. 

If he is putting himself in charge of directing her life, he is setting all of you up for a lot of frustration, pain and heartache.

Leave the "social-working" of another adult to the professionals. The boundaries get f'ed up waaaaaaay too fast.

Be her friend, but refuse to be her savior. She needs more help than either of you can give her.

Good luck whatever you decide.

[suesinfl]

I have to agree with kittensaver. From reading the boards, she is very wise on how to deal with others needing help. I do feel sorry for "Amy", but she needs direction on how to rise above her situation. I commend your DH for wanting to help her out, but I think that you and your DH would be more of a help to her by standing by her and helping with the social services that she needs.

Best of luck to the three of you.

ETA: Sometimes a hand-up is better than a hand-out.

[honeysalt]

Apr 28, 2016 17:54:42 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Apr 28, 2016 17:51:42 GMT -5 honeysalt said:

He wants to make the conditions that she works out 4x a week (because that is what her doctor told her to do for her medical condition), continues therapy, learns to cook, and goes to work. 

He doesn't want or expect repayment. 

Typing this out makes me see how absurd this is.  We can't have kids, but we also don't have kids because neither of us is suited to be a parent to a child or woman in her late thirties. 

If he is putting himself in charge of directing her life, he is setting all of you up for a lot of frustration, pain and heartache.

Leave the "social-working" of another adult to the professionals. The boundaries get f'ed up waaaaaaay too fast.

Be her friend, but refuse to be her savior. She needs more help than either of you can give her.

Good luck whatever you decide.

You are exactly right.  My DH normally has strong boundaries. 

He is confident in his ability to manage people and projects professionally, but doesn't understand how those skills are not transferable to this personal situation.  Also, he has no experience with this.  All of his other friends and exes are successful personally and professionally, so he doesn't comprehend how far this situation is out of his ability to fix it. 

I will admit to thinking it was my job to save people in my twenties, and probably got tempted by unhealthy patterns.  Time to burn my hero cape instead of burying it in the back of the closet. 

[giramomma]

Apr 28, 2016 17:51:42 GMT -5 honeysalt said:

He wants to make the conditions that she works out 4x a week (because that is what her doctor told her to do for her medical condition), continues therapy, learns to cook, and goes to work. 

This is unhealthy. Any therapist the women is working with would point this out in a new york minute, if they did their job.

Your husband is not a trained professional.

I'd be more interested in his KISA (knight in shining armour) tendencies with this woman. Why her? If he feels the need to help others, have him contact the local United Way, Catholic Charities, Big Brother/Big Sister, etc and find a way to volunteer. There are other outlets (including foster care) for this desire that he has....

[kittensaver]

Apr 28, 2016 18:08:09 GMT -5 honeysalt said:

Apr 28, 2016 17:54:42 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

 Time to burn my hero cape instead of burying it in the back of the closet. 

A very wise decision. We can love our family and our friends, but we cannot fix them, and we cannot save them from themselves.

You can stand by and personally/emotionally support someone while they find their way, but you cannot dictate their way or find the way for them.

That is their life's work that is for them and them alone.

[NoNamePerson]

What happens if she doesn't follow DH rules/guidelines. Is his going to say "OK, that's it" or "well, let's give her one more chance Where does it end? I don't' see it ending for whatever reason.

I think following kittensaver's advice would be the way to go.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

You cannot control another person. Your DH is setting himself up for a lot of frustration and disappointment.

She will become dependent on him.  She will do just enough to stay in his good graces. Once the support stops all hell will break loose.

I'm sorry she's had a bad life but unless she has an underlying mental issue at some point it needs to be recognized she is an adult in charge of her own life.  She doesn't have to make the choices she does.  It sounds like she's been given multiple opportunities to change and blew them all. Why does your husband think he will be the exception.

Google the numbers of her local DHHS office and hand her one of those slips with the domestic abuse hotline number. Tell her you're supportive if she decides to get help. That is as far as you go.  She needs to help herself first.

[Deleted]

I think it would be all too easy to get overly involved in her life, trying to make sure she's keeping her end of the bargain. Your DH can keep encouraging her and letting her know that there's somebody that does care about her, but as generous as his ideas sound, it could easily turn into a complicated mess.

You're far more gracious than I, honeysalt. I like to think I'm a fairly kind hearted person, but I seriously doubt I would have even had to think about it before I vetoed the idea of my husband helping his ex like that. My hat's off to both of you for such generosity of spirit in even considering offering that kind of help.

[honeysalt]

Apr 28, 2016 18:17:14 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Apr 28, 2016 17:51:42 GMT -5 honeysalt said:

He wants to make the conditions that she works out 4x a week (because that is what her doctor told her to do for her medical condition), continues therapy, learns to cook, and goes to work. 

This is unhealthy. Any therapist the women is working with would point this out in a new york minute, if they did their job.

Your husband is not a trained professional.

I'd be more interested in his KISA (knight in shining armour) tendencies with this woman. Why her? If he feels the need to help others, have him contact the local United Way, Catholic Charities, Big Brother/Big Sister, etc and find a way to volunteer. There are other outlets (including foster care) for this desire that he has....

I agree.  I found it disturbing and told him no strings was the only way we could do this (we aren't going to anymore).  If I hadn't known him for 10 years, it would be a big red flag for me.  It seems so controlling, but he is the opposite in our relationship, and in his other personal relationships (he does seem to have control issues at work, but so do I). 

While I am glad you brought it up, I'm not too worried about the KISA thing.  My DH is actually pretty self involved normally.  He is generous with his family and friends, but has no burning desire to help people in general.  I don't think that she is the trigger for this strange change in behavior, I think it is the attempted suicide.  When they were dating, she was a talented classical musician in a pretty competitive program.  Her life has been a mess for a long time and he has never attempted to help before. 

He has seen me go through 2 suicides since we have been together.  He saw all of the guilt and what should I have done, why didn't I do anything hand wringing that went on (not from me, but others involved).  My guess is that he doesn't want to grapple with that. 

[cronewitch]

You can't force rules on adults like working out 4 times a week, or learning to cook. How would you even measure that? If she works out 5 minutes is that enough and what if that 5 minutes is 1 minute of walking with one minute of rest so really only 3 minutes of walking? Learning to cook can take 30-50 years so if she learns to make pancakes from a mix does that count as learning to cook? Getting a job is a little easier to measure but if she lands minimum wage 10 hours a week does it count?

If your family wants to help her maybe bus fare home then help her find a homeless shelter and social workers. She needs to make her own plan on how to get from homeless shelter to getting her own home like a grown adult. Once she is living in an apartment you might help her find some furniture used and some cast off towels and dishes or bus fare to work until her first payday or a prepaid cell phone with 100 minutes. Only help her don't lead her. Don't trust her with your husband even if you trust him she will attempt to hang on to him any way she can, make sure she never gets him alone. If he needs to see her go with him make sure she knows he is only helping with your consent so she must honor you by keeping her hands off him, not even a thank you hug. Also make sure any help isn't ongoing like finding her a place to rent and paying for 3 months doesn't mean signing a lease. Maybe instead find her a motel room and offer to pay half after she is employed so she can leave the homeless shelter when she has her job that will pay her own rent and buy her own food and only pay half the rent for a month not three months, she needs to figure it out herself.

[Deleted]

Good luck to you  and your husband and good luck to your friend.  I don't know what you should do, but you and your husband sound like really good people who will figure it out.

[honeysalt]

Apr 28, 2016 18:56:32 GMT -5 cronewitch said:

You can't force rules on adults like working out 4 times a week, or learning to cook. How would you even measure that? If she works out 5 minutes is that enough and what if that 5 minutes is 1 minute of walking with one minute of rest so really only 3 minutes of walking? Learning to cook can take 30-50 years so if she learns to make pancakes from a mix does that count as learning to cook? Getting a job is a little easier to measure but if she lands minimum wage 10 hours a week does it count?

If your family wants to help her maybe bus fare home then help her find a homeless shelter and social workers. She needs to make her own plan on how to get from homeless shelter to getting her own home like a grown adult. Once she is living in an apartment you might help her find some furniture used and some cast off towels and dishes or bus fare to work until her first payday or a prepaid cell phone with 100 minutes. Only help her don't lead her. Don't trust her with your husband even if you trust him she will attempt to hang on to him any way she can, make sure she never gets him alone. If he needs to see her go with him make sure she knows he is only helping with your consent so she must honor you by keeping her hands off him, not even a thank you hug. Also make sure any help isn't ongoing like finding her a place to rent and paying for 3 months doesn't mean signing a lease. Maybe instead find her a motel room and offer to pay half after she is employed so she can leave the homeless shelter when she has her job that will pay her own rent and buy her own food and only pay half the rent for a month not three months, she needs to figure it out herself.

Agree completely about forcing rules on adults.  You bring up a lot of other great points. 

Not at all worried about her getting my DH alone.  When she lived in our city, they used to spend time alone regularly.  I was always invited and always declined.  One of the foundations of our partnership is that we trust and accept each other exactly how we are.  Giving that up would cost me too much.  If he can't live up to that at any point, I can walk.  It would hurt, but I would get over it.  While I think it makes sense for people to have much different boundaries about exes, this has never been an issue for us.  Again, I totally get your perspective and think it is valid, but if he would rather be with her than me, ultimately, I would be better off knowing that.  This is not the case from what I currently know. 

[honeysalt]

Apr 28, 2016 18:21:56 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Apr 28, 2016 18:08:09 GMT -5 honeysalt said:

 Time to burn my hero cape instead of burying it in the back of the closet. 

A very wise decision. We can love our family and our friends, but we cannot fix them, and we cannot save them from themselves.

You can stand by and personally/emotionally support someone while they find their way, but you cannot dictate their way or find the way for them.

That is their life's work that is for them and them alone.

Thank you for all of your advice, especially the last sentence.  I have lived enough to know that you didn't come by it for free.  Sharing it is generous. 

[quince]

My husband had no issues with me keeping a lunch date (alone!) weekly with my disaster of an ex. He helped me move him in once he got subsidized housing, and when he was homeless, had no problem with me making sure that he at least had clean clothes and a place to shower a couple of times a week, even though that place was our house. 

Minimal help and a willing ear can be a comfort and aid without hobbling someone's ability to help themselves. I strongly suspect my husband likes me BETTER because of how I dealt with my ex. (At least he knows if he becomes a shitty spouse/ex, I'm likely to be generous with him. )

I agree that micro-managing along with super substantial help is a bad idea- pointing her toward tools, being a friend, and offering ome token aid seem a better option.

[zibazinski]

Leave her where she is. Under no circumstances should she return to your home area. There are plenty of services right where she is that won't involve your husband.

[whoisjohngalt]

Completely agree with everything kittensaver and giramomma said.

Why does he want to help HER?   Why not someone else?  While I don't think there is anything for you to worry about (romantically), but I do find it incredibly strange when people who dated years ago find the need to keep the relationship going for this long.  ESPECIALLY in this type of dis functional situation.

If your husband needs a "project", I am sure there are plenty to choose from - many have already been mentioned on this thread.

[whoisjohngalt]

BTW, my parents "adopted" an adult and have been helping him for almost 2 decades.  There have NEVER been any rules involved, just simply "here is the money".   So, I don't necessarily think it's wrong to help adults, related or not, but this situation is a bit too bizarre for my taste

[Opti]

Apr 28, 2016 19:48:36 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Completely agree with everything kittensaver and giramomma said.

Why does he want to help HER?   Why not someone else?  While I don't think there is anything for you to worry about (romantically), but I do find it incredibly strange when people who dated years ago find the need to keep the relationship going for this long.  ESPECIALLY in this type of dis functional situation.

If your husband needs a "project", I am sure there are plenty to choose from - many have already been mentioned on this thread.

What is so wrong for wanting to help a friend? Honestly I don't get the worries or concern about romance or why one should have to end a friendship simply because one is now married or some time clock ran out. Things happen, I don't get why DH should stop caring. The person almost committed suicide. Why would another "project" make him forget that?

Some of us aren't all that happy when someone we know wants to off themselves or are dying. Is it now YM to not care?

[giramomma]

Apr 28, 2016 19:54:54 GMT -5 Opti said:

Apr 28, 2016 19:48:36 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

What is so wrong for wanting to help a friend? Honestly I don't get the worries or concern about romance or why one should have to end a friendship simply because one is now married or some time clock ran out. Things happen, I don't get why DH should stop caring. The person almost committed suicide. Why would another "project" make him forget that?

Some of us aren't all that happy when someone we know wants to off themselves or are dying. Is it now YM to not care?

It's not about the friendship. That part doesn't bother me. It's about the sudden desire to "help" someone.

But, I'm a cynic. If my husband is completely behaving out of his norm (in an unhealthy way, at that), I'd want to know why. Actually, that goes for my kids, too.

If OP had said..."Normally, my DH spends XX on Charities every year. This year, he would rather gift that money to help a friend in need..what are the financial implications other than the gift isn't tax deductible.." That would be completely different.

Or

" DH has volunteered for a suicide hotline for several years. Now we find out that his ex is in outpatient care because she attempted committed suicide. He would like to help her get out of her situation, get settled, and get her started on a new life." Well, then I wouldn't find the behavior odd.

 No person is so insulated that they've never known anyone whose been worse off in life, either in person or anecdotally.

ETA: Also notice, OP's husband did not say "Geeze, X is falling on hard times. I wonder how best I can support her. If my ex willing, maybe I could sit down with her during one session with her therapist, and then I can see what I can do for the best interest of my ex."

[Opti]

Amy is currently living in another state and working a minimum wage job. She has some health problems and is in a bad relationship and recently tried to take her own life. She was given in patient treatment and is now in outpatient treatment.

DH would like to help her out financially. As in move her back to our city and set her up with an apartment for 3 months. He would also help her get a job. He wants to make strict conditions for the financial support.

From the OP.

I don't find the first sentence of the second paragraph all that unusual given the first paragraph I quoted. Now how he wants to help her, the part in italics, I think it needs some work. Odds are he wants to help and is both thinking the best way to do that and what his wife might think is a good idea. Personally, giving her some money and some support via phone, mail, or text seems reasonable to me. Moving her to their city, not.

People can get emotional when they find out someone they know almost died. He's not thinking clearly, but the OP can help with that. Luckily, she knows this person is just a friend DH wants to help back to a better state.

[Phoenix84]

Setting boundaries and rules on an adult you're not related to sounds like epic drama waiting to happen.

I understand wanting to give her guidance, and maybe some tough love, but that's a recipient for disaster.

I'm not saying don't help, but don't put conditions on it and don't give more than you can afford to lose.

[NoNamePerson]

I'm also wondering about the learn to cook condition? Is he going to send her to culinary school. Now keep in mind this only pops into my head since my cooking skills are non existent.