gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Feb 13, 2016 20:42:09 GMT -5
How dare you judge people on the visual appeal of their resume! What's a resume for?
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milee
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Post by milee on Feb 13, 2016 21:24:37 GMT -5
Well when you take the plunge and open Rukh, Inc. you can be as capricious as you want, too. And you, Bozo and Y'Alljealous can eat all the cake you want. Because running a business is all cake and happiness.
Or... you may find that since you're selling a service to customers and customers have certain expectations of the professionals that they interact with, that you might want your employees to have certain professional tendencies and appearances. It's fantastic to be self-righteous and poetic when it comes to ideals and other people's money; you will find when it comes to your own business you sometimes have to be realistic and practical. Bozo and Y'Alljealous may be beautiful and culturally appropriate names but might not convey the right message when you feature them as your top employee consultants at your statistical research business.
Did you never consider that your biases on reading the name on the resume is actually not who that person is - and if you don't interview them - your assumptions are never questioned? When hiring people - as I have in my last few positions, the focus is on selecting interviewees bases on the needed qualifications and how well the resume match those. Several aspects of the visual appeal of the resume is also considered as we send reports out constantly and the resume will show a little of their discernment in that area. Then, in the interview the goal is to verify those qualification with strategic questioning while assessing potential team fit. After interviewing a number of candidates, there is a contrast and compare of the candidates as we consider who will be one. Typically each one has strengths and weaknesses vis a vis the needed qualifications. The candidate with the best fit is offered the job. But frequently, what one finds is that they are excellent in one area, but not so great in another and may need some mentoring. The ENTIRE point is that we don't just offer the job to Y'Alljealous, but neither do we toss her resume in the garbage. If the qualifications look like what we need, I will arrange an interview. If Y'Alljealous has the best profile of experience and abilities, performs well during the interview and seems a good team fit, she'll get the offer. It's really not that hard. And if you'll read back through my posts - which isn't that hard - you'd realize that's pretty similar to my hiring process as well.
I've posted different things based on what I see is common in corporate America and what I do - they are not the same thing. You may have missed that.
It will be interesting to see if and how your process changes when it's your company and money at stake. It doesn't sound like a big distinction, but it is and you won't understand that until you do it. Instead of hiring Bozo and Y'Alljealous for a company you work for - which obviously you want to do well but don't have the same personal stake in - you'll find that it's a slightly different thing when you're hiring them for your own small (at least in the beginning) company. You'll be acutely aware that if customers somehow question the professionalism of Bozo and Y'Alljealous, it will mean you don't pay your mortgage that month. Much more immediate concept than Bozo working a few cubes over and if he's unsuccessful it means the employer you work for has a slight dip in profit that month.
Business is not hard; in fact most of the theories are very simple. But it's a very different matter to implement some of these concepts when it's your money on the line rather than just a simplistic theory.
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milee
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Post by milee on Feb 13, 2016 21:56:29 GMT -5
And I think it's highly disturbing that you're so invested in your personal take on this that you haven't read what I posted before going off.
So we're both disturbed.
It's pretty naïve to think that listing Bozo and Y'Alljealous as your top consultants at your new business is not going to cost you business much less open you to ridicule.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2016 22:06:50 GMT -5
Lol! You're telling us it's quite alright for employers to take applicants out of the running for a job solely based on biases against a certain type of given name....but WE are "reflexively vilifying"? Oh, that's rich! That is really taking the cake. Well when you take the plunge and open Rukh, Inc. you can be as capricious as you want, too. And you, Bozo and Y'Alljealous can eat all the cake you want. Because running a business is all cake and happiness.
Or... you may find that since you're selling a service to customers and customers have certain expectations of the professionals that they interact with, that you might want your employees to have certain professional tendencies and appearances. It's fantastic to be self-righteous and poetic when it comes to ideals and other people's money; you will find when it comes to your own business you sometimes have to be realistic and practical. Bozo and Y'Alljealous may be beautiful and culturally appropriate names but might not convey the right message when you feature them as your top employee consultants at your statistical research business.
No one said anything about hiring people that weren't qualified or professional. We are talking about your assumption that Misty isn't qualified or professional because of your prejudice about what you think is a ghetto name.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 13, 2016 22:10:04 GMT -5
If your clients hate clowns, then hiring Bozo might cause you to lose said clients, even if Bozo can outperform Reginald Q. Barrington IV with his wig tied behind his back. Snubbing Bozo for appearances sake totally contributes to the problem. But can you afford to lose those clients? It's a value judgement you have to make.
Same applies to Y'Alljealous, Bubba, Kandi-Lynn...
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 13, 2016 22:17:23 GMT -5
And we've progressed past some of it. Hey man, I'm all about being able to bill Y'Alljealous out at a rate his mad SkIlLz deserve. But until that day comes, I'm not going to pretend that there aren't people out there who already closed their minds the second they saw the dudes name.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2016 22:19:35 GMT -5
Lol! You're telling us it's quite alright for employers to take applicants out of the running for a job solely based on biases against a certain type of given name....but WE are "reflexively vilifying"? Oh, that's rich! That is really taking the cake. Well when you take the plunge and open Rukh, Inc. you can be as capricious as you want, too. And you, Bozo and Y'Alljealous can eat all the cake you want. Because running a business is all cake and happiness.
Or... you may find that since you're selling a service to customers and customers have certain expectations of the professionals that they interact with, that you might want your employees to have certain professional tendencies and appearances. It's fantastic to be self-righteous and poetic when it comes to ideals and other people's money; you will find when it comes to your own business you sometimes have to be realistic and practical. Bozo and Y'Alljealous may be beautiful and culturally appropriate names but might not convey the right message when you feature them as your top employee consultants at your statistical research business.
Tell me again how you aren't justifying the prejudice. And from what you posted on here you aren't doing it to just Bozo and Y'Allie. You are doing it to Misty and Bobby Jo too.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2016 22:21:14 GMT -5
And we've progressed past some of it. Hey man, I'm all about being able to bill Y'Alljealous out at a rate his mad SkIlLz deserve. But until that day comes, I'm not going to pretend that there aren't people out there who already closed their minds the second they saw the dudes name. Y'Alljealous is obviously a female name
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milee
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Post by milee on Feb 13, 2016 22:29:31 GMT -5
Well when you take the plunge and open Rukh, Inc. you can be as capricious as you want, too. And you, Bozo and Y'Alljealous can eat all the cake you want. Because running a business is all cake and happiness.
Or... you may find that since you're selling a service to customers and customers have certain expectations of the professionals that they interact with, that you might want your employees to have certain professional tendencies and appearances. It's fantastic to be self-righteous and poetic when it comes to ideals and other people's money; you will find when it comes to your own business you sometimes have to be realistic and practical. Bozo and Y'Alljealous may be beautiful and culturally appropriate names but might not convey the right message when you feature them as your top employee consultants at your statistical research business.
Tell me again how you aren't justifying the prejudice. And from what you posted on here you aren't doing it to just Bozo and Y'Allie. You are doing it to Misty and Bobby Jo too. At this point it's become obvious that I can post whatever I like and you won't take the time to read it anyway. You are the one that keeps making assumptions without reading what I'm posting.
But yes, for certain jobs within my company- mainly those with client contact - there are names that would give me serious pause. For other jobs within my company, the name wouldn't be enough to throw away the resume but might provide enough concern that I'd interview other similarly qualified candidates first. On our production line, I've hired a "Tammi Jo" (not quite her name, but close).
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 13, 2016 22:30:59 GMT -5
My bad. Her MaD sKiLlZ.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 13, 2016 22:37:20 GMT -5
...:::"And. .....you are going to let your mind be closed for you?":::...
I think both my mind, AND my eyes are open. It's out there. No use pretending it isn't.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2016 22:44:40 GMT -5
...:::"And. .....you are going to let your mind be closed for you?":::... I think both my mind, AND my eyes are open. It's out there. No use pretending it isn't. And again, no one is debating it's out there. This is about the fact that it's intent is to keep everyone playing by the rules and eliminating diversity. ETA - I'm not actually accusing milee of being against diversity. But buying into this whole train of thought and the perceived threat of her business failing if she doesn't play by the rules does help to discourage diversity.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 13, 2016 22:50:17 GMT -5
Tell me again how you aren't justifying the prejudice. And from what you posted on here you aren't doing it to just Bozo and Y'Allie. You are doing it to Misty and Bobby Jo too. At this point it's become obvious that I can post whatever I like and you won't take the time to read it anyway. You are the one that keeps making assumptions without reading what I'm posting.
But yes, for certain jobs within my company- mainly those with client contact - there are names that would give me serious pause. For other jobs within my company, the name wouldn't be enough to throw away the resume but might provide enough concern that I'd interview other similarly qualified candidates first. On our production line, I've hired a "Tammi Jo" (not quite her name, but close).
Genuinely confused and curious why this name would even come to your mind to mention here. Do you think it's hick-ish or something? (I actually know 2 Mary Jo's, both so completely un-redneck-like, it just seems really strange that this kind of name would stick out.) Maybe your example isn't this close to reality, but, yeah, very curious as to your reasoning for bringing it up here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2016 22:50:20 GMT -5
We all have to be rich, heterosexual, middle aged white men to succeed. Or mimic them. Don't act like women, or people of colour, or LGBT, or any other diverse persona.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2016 22:53:40 GMT -5
The question is, will you let others' prejudices dictate your actions? That is what weare all acaccountable for, our own action. Not others'. I've been half joking in some of my responses here, but seriously, this comment is spoken like someone who has never actually had to deal first hand with discrimination.
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milee
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Post by milee on Feb 13, 2016 22:56:51 GMT -5
At this point it's become obvious that I can post whatever I like and you won't take the time to read it anyway. You are the one that keeps making assumptions without reading what I'm posting.
But yes, for certain jobs within my company- mainly those with client contact - there are names that would give me serious pause. For other jobs within my company, the name wouldn't be enough to throw away the resume but might provide enough concern that I'd interview other similarly qualified candidates first. On our production line, I've hired a "Tammi Jo" (not quite her name, but close).
Genuinely confused and curious why this name would even come to your mind to mention here. Do you think it's hick-ish or something? (I actually know 2 Mary Jo's, both so completely un-redneck-like, it just seems really strange that this kind of name would stick out.) Maybe your example isn't this close to reality, but, yeah, very curious as to your reasoning for bringing it up here. I'm not creative enough to do a similar name without posting the real name. It's close to Tammi Jo, but not Tammi Jo. And the reasoning for bringing it up was to respond to Laterbloomer's continued accusation that somehow I'm discriminating against the Bobbi Jos. Tammi Jo just seemed close to both the actual name and the name the Laterbloomer is very concerned that I'm persecuting.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2016 22:57:54 GMT -5
I was using Bobbi Jo because it was a name you identified as ghetto in an early post.
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milee
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Post by milee on Feb 13, 2016 22:59:57 GMT -5
We all have to be rich, heterosexual, middle aged white men to succeed. Or mimic them. Don't act like women, or people of colour, or LGBT, or any other diverse persona. One more time with feeling... it's not about being female, being a certain race or LGBT. It's about ghetto and ghetto attitude, which is a choice and actions, not a protected class and not something that is desirable in a corporate setting or in a position that deals with clients. But I think you keep ignoring this point because it's so much easier to just pull out the idea that it is racial or other similar discrimination.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2016 23:04:30 GMT -5
We all have to be rich, heterosexual, middle aged white men to succeed. Or mimic them. Don't act like women, or people of colour, or LGBT, or any other diverse persona. One more time with feeling... it's not about being female, being a certain race or LGBT. It's about ghetto and ghetto attitude, which is a choice and actions, not a protected class and not something that is desirable in a corporate setting or in a position that deals with clients. But I think you keep ignoring this point because it's so much easier to just pull out the idea that it is racial or other similar discrimination. What exactly does a unique name tell you about attitude? Other than the fact that some poor parents tried to give their kids something that was unique.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2016 23:07:23 GMT -5
We all have to be rich, heterosexual, middle aged white men to succeed. Or mimic them. Don't act like women, or people of colour, or LGBT, or any other diverse persona. One more time with feeling... it's not about being female, being a certain race or LGBT. It's about ghetto and ghetto attitude, which is a choice and actions, not a protected class and not something that is desirable in a corporate setting or in a position that deals with clients. But I think you keep ignoring this point because it's so much easier to just pull out the idea that it is racial or other similar discrimination. And I am trying to point out that this particular prejudice is part of a larger trend to discourage diversity. Having the wrong name gets you punished, not dressing the right way gets you punished, speaking in a flamboyant manner gets you punished. Discriminating based on a name choice is just one of the many ways this is imposed on us.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 13, 2016 23:09:27 GMT -5
Genuinely confused and curious why this name would even come to your mind to mention here. Do you think it's hick-ish or something? (I actually know 2 Mary Jo's, both so completely un-redneck-like, it just seems really strange that this kind of name would stick out.) Maybe your example isn't this close to reality, but, yeah, very curious as to your reasoning for bringing it up here. I'm not creative enough to do a similar name without posting the real name. It's close to Tammi Jo, but not Tammi Jo. And the reasoning for bringing it up was to respond to Laterbloomer's continued accusation that somehow I'm discriminating against the Bobbi Jos. Tammi Jo just seemed close to both the actual name and the name the Laterbloomer is very concerned that I'm persecuting. Oh okay. Thanks for the explanation. (I just remembered, I worked with a Tammi Jo too, but she just went by Tammi. Both __ Jo's that I worked with were intelligent, college-educated accountants. And Catholics, maybe that's the connection.)
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milee
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Post by milee on Feb 13, 2016 23:19:38 GMT -5
One more time with feeling... it's not about being female, being a certain race or LGBT. It's about ghetto and ghetto attitude, which is a choice and actions, not a protected class and not something that is desirable in a corporate setting or in a position that deals with clients. But I think you keep ignoring this point because it's so much easier to just pull out the idea that it is racial or other similar discrimination. What exactly does a unique name tell you about attitude? Other than the fact that some poor parents tried to give their kids something that was unique. The article oped linked to had some explanations that were similar to what I've been saying.
"But for the main part, he says, the effect of a name on its bearer rarely amounts to more than the effect of being raised by parents who would choose such a name. ....
However, there is no evidence that it's the names causing such a marked discrepancy, rather than other factors they represent, Clark says. Different names are popular among different social classes, and these groups have different opportunities and goals. ....
As baby names become a matter of choice rather than tradition, they reveal more about the people doing the choosing."
Employers are hesitant to take the risk on an employee who was raised by a parent that was dumb or naïve enough to name a kid Bozo or Y'Alljealous. The lack of judgment implied by that name choice also implies a family situation that might not teach the social skills necessary for a corporate job.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2016 23:25:35 GMT -5
What exactly does a unique name tell you about attitude? Other than the fact that some poor parents tried to give their kids something that was unique. The article oped linked to had some explanations that were similar to what I've been saying.
"But for the main part, he says, the effect of a name on its bearer rarely amounts to more than the effect of being raised by parents who would choose such a name. ....
However, there is no evidence that it's the names causing such a marked discrepancy, rather than other factors they represent, Clark says. Different names are popular among different social classes, and these groups have different opportunities and goals. ....
As baby names become a matter of choice rather than tradition, they reveal more about the people doing the choosing."
Employers are hesitant to take the risk on an employee who was raised by a parent that was dumb or naïve enough to name a kid Bozo or Y'Alljealous. The lack of judgment implied by that name choice also implies a family situation that might not teach the social skills necessary for a corporate job.
And we are back to our merry go round. I will say this is justification for prejudice and you will claim it is some kind of truth. And we will go in circles.
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milee
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Post by milee on Feb 13, 2016 23:30:23 GMT -5
I'm not creative enough to do a similar name without posting the real name. It's close to Tammi Jo, but not Tammi Jo. And the reasoning for bringing it up was to respond to Laterbloomer's continued accusation that somehow I'm discriminating against the Bobbi Jos. Tammi Jo just seemed close to both the actual name and the name the Laterbloomer is very concerned that I'm persecuting. Oh okay. Thanks for the explanation. (I just remembered, I worked with a Tammi Jo too, but she just went by Tammi. Both __ Jo's that I worked with were intelligent, college-educated accountants. And Catholics, maybe that's the connection.) I have no idea what religion (if any) my employees are. That's a subject I purposefully stay far, far away from. Religion and politics. But it has been an eye opener to see some of the political bumper stickers appearing in the employee parking lot.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 1:13:44 GMT -5
Anyone that wants to be treated serious and is named Y'alljealous or Bozo needs to call themselves something else. It is not discriminatory to think that if they aren't willing to call themselves something else they shouldn't be taken seriously.Y'alljealous could take the nickname Ali and Bozo could be Zoey or Bob. After a certain age it is a choice what you are called.
I once called my daughter's work asking for her by her full first name and was told no one by that name worked there. When I said the short version of her name they instantly knew who I was talking about.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 1:32:48 GMT -5
One more time with feeling... it's not about being female, being a certain race or LGBT. It's about ghetto and ghetto attitude, which is a choice and actions, not a protected class and not something that is desirable in a corporate setting or in a position that deals with clients. But I think you keep ignoring this point because it's so much easier to just pull out the idea that it is racial or other similar discrimination.
What exactly does a unique name tell you about attitude? Other than the fact that some poor parents tried to give their kids something that was unique. It tells me that they won't change what they are called. Whether that is because they are stubborn or too dim to think about it or something else, I don't know. You don't even have to legally change the name, just introduce yourself by what you want to be called. I met a waitress once named Candy. She thought it was a terrible name and went by the pig latin version of it, Andy Cay. She told the story so she used her name as a way to interact with customers . If you are not willing to reinvent yourself at least a bit, employment is going to be harder.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 14, 2016 7:20:48 GMT -5
Anyone that wants to be treated serious and is named Y'alljealous or Bozo needs to call themselves something else. It is not discriminatory to think that if they aren't willing to call themselves something else they shouldn't be taken seriously.Y'alljealous could take the nickname Ali and Bozo could be Zoey or Bob. After a certain age it is a choice what you are called. I once called my daughter's work asking for her by her full first name and was told no one by that name worked there. When I said the short version of her name they instantly knew who I was talking about. Most people use their full name on resumes and job applications, though. There's no way to know if they willingly go by a nickname unless it comes up during a job interview, which means that you need to give them a chance first.
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Feb 14, 2016 7:46:26 GMT -5
I'm just going to leave this clip here...
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Feb 14, 2016 8:02:58 GMT -5
Well, shit. I was going to respond to kittensaver that she's not getting old because she's already old but ya'll went off on some nonsense that I decided not to read. Oh, look. I did say what I wanted. kittensaver - I believe you are my age so the answer is no because of above. <<tries to run but too dizzy from awful sinus infection and falls down>> ETA: SAVE THE SNAKE! I pretty much got lost when they started talking about snakes at concerts so I know I'm really old But my thought is "you are never to old to go to concerts" I hope I kick the bucket at one
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Feb 14, 2016 9:05:31 GMT -5
I feel bad for people who have the same names of people who become famous or infamous.
Back in the 90s I had a babysitter who mentioned her husband Mike. A couple days later I put it together with her last name and realized she was married to Michael Jordan!
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