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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2016 13:08:55 GMT -5
I never debated whether it happened. I said it is a snobby and prejudiced behaviour and you proceeded to explain to me why it is perfectly acceptable. I explained what the assumptions were and why they were made.
I do agree with some of them and I don't agree with others. As an employer, I also think that the pendulum has swung so far that it's easy to throw the accusation of "bias" and "prejudiced" to impugn employers for doing something that's reasonable to do. Employers get put in more and more no-win situations by well meaning lawmakers and activists who are trying to right prior wrongs and in doing so cause unforeseen problems. An example is the new movement to "ban the box" meaning employers would be prohibited from inquiring about an applicant's criminal record. For some jobs, that's very reasonable since the employee's work wouldn't put any other people or assets at risk. But for other jobs that would be nuts. Employers following that mandate or just giving what appears to be a rehabilitated criminal a second chance would be held liable if anything bad happened. So employers aren't able to make the choice if they want to take that risk, but have all the exposure for if it goes wrong. Things like that - and how difficult it can be to fire a problem employee - are why employers are getting more and more careful and more and more leery of inviting trouble into their place of work.
Doing a criminal check is a different thing. There you are looking to make a judgement based on the person's actual behaviour. Not a prejudiced assumption.
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Blonde Granny
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Post by Blonde Granny on Feb 13, 2016 13:09:49 GMT -5
I was watching an old Bones program last night. The computer gal was pregnant and her hippy-Dippy Dad showed up and had an vision of what their baby should be named. He picked the name Stacatto Mambo......does anyone possibly see anything wrong with that name vs. the one the parents had picked out, being Michael Vincent?
If HR is looking at 2 very similar resumes, I too say the one that wins has a name that doesn't need to be sounded out to figure out what the persons name is and how to pronounce it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2016 13:14:33 GMT -5
In other words the one most like you.
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milee
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Post by milee on Feb 13, 2016 13:16:58 GMT -5
I explained what the assumptions were and why they were made.
I do agree with some of them and I don't agree with others. As an employer, I also think that the pendulum has swung so far that it's easy to throw the accusation of "bias" and "prejudiced" to impugn employers for doing something that's reasonable to do. Employers get put in more and more no-win situations by well meaning lawmakers and activists who are trying to right prior wrongs and in doing so cause unforeseen problems. An example is the new movement to "ban the box" meaning employers would be prohibited from inquiring about an applicant's criminal record. For some jobs, that's very reasonable since the employee's work wouldn't put any other people or assets at risk. But for other jobs that would be nuts. Employers following that mandate or just giving what appears to be a rehabilitated criminal a second chance would be held liable if anything bad happened. So employers aren't able to make the choice if they want to take that risk, but have all the exposure for if it goes wrong. Things like that - and how difficult it can be to fire a problem employee - are why employers are getting more and more careful and more and more leery of inviting trouble into their place of work.
Doing a criminal check is a different thing. There you are looking to make a judgement based on the person's actual behaviour. Not a prejudiced assumption. Yes, it's unfair because it's not something the applicant chose, it's just a potential indicator of what environment the applicant was raised in. That's why I also threw in the example of how people unconsciously judge (unfairly) others based on physical beauty. Unfair - but true.
I would add that there is one choice job seekers who are named "Dahomey" can make to improve their odds. They can choose a nickname, abbreviate or use initials. It's a choice whether you head up your resume as "Dahomey Smith" or "D. Smith".
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2016 13:17:58 GMT -5
You don't have to like it to recognize that it happens.
Kind of like how I think rape is ALWAYS to be blamed on the attacker. But I still tell my children never to leave their glass unattended. Etc.
Weird names, ethnic sounding names, strange spellings... There can be issues attached to these choices. Ignoring it doesn't change it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2016 13:23:15 GMT -5
Doing a criminal check is a different thing. There you are looking to make a judgement based on the person's actual behaviour. Not a prejudiced assumption. Yes, it's unfair because it's not something the applicant chose, it's just a potential indicator of what environment the applicant was raised in. That's why I also threw in the example of how people unconsciously judge (unfairly) others based on physical beauty. Unfair - but true.
I would add that there is one choice job seekers who are named "Dahomey" can make to improve their odds. They can choose a nickname, abbreviate or use initials. It's a choice whether you head up your resume as "Dahomey Smith" or "D. Smith".
And again it's a prejudice. I'm sure there are lots of John's and Steven's and Mary's and Susie's that have been bad employees. But nobody automatically throws their resumes in the trash.
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milee
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Post by milee on Feb 13, 2016 13:29:01 GMT -5
Yes, it's unfair because it's not something the applicant chose, it's just a potential indicator of what environment the applicant was raised in. That's why I also threw in the example of how people unconsciously judge (unfairly) others based on physical beauty. Unfair - but true.
I would add that there is one choice job seekers who are named "Dahomey" can make to improve their odds. They can choose a nickname, abbreviate or use initials. It's a choice whether you head up your resume as "Dahomey Smith" or "D. Smith".
And again it's a prejudice. I'm sure there are lots of John's and Steven's and Mary's and Susie's that have been bad employees. But nobody automatically throws their resumes in the trash. Very, very true. It would be interesting to see data matching employee success to certain elements on a resume. My guess is that employers would get some surprises about how closely certain components are - and are not - tied to actual data.
But I haven't seen anyone keeping that kind of data. So we all deal with the imperfect human decision making process. In the beginning, we all get to choose how well we play the game. If I had a kid named "Dahomey" (and in the future I might since I've volunteered with foster kids for a long time and when my boys are grown I will probably have foster kids in my home), I'd advise him to head up his resume with his initials and prepare him for the concerns that employers might have so he has a chance at overcoming it.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 13, 2016 13:37:49 GMT -5
Oh, and I know I'm old so I'm not a good judge of stuff like this.
The first time I knew I was too old was a few years ago. My sister and I had always liked to go to the Aerosmith concerts in Phoenix. We were at a concert and there was a woman wearing almost nothing except a really large snake. I was horrified and told my sister that someone should make her leave; my sister agreed and said it was gross to see the woman in that tiny bikini and the snake was scary. I disagreed - neither of those things bothered me. I was worried that it was a loud, smoky environment that was very inappropriate for the poor snake, who must be terrified - she should leave so she could take better care of her snake. Sis told me if my biggest worry was that the snake was scared, that I was officially too old to go to any more concerts. I had the same thought at the Alice Cooper/Motley Crüe show last summer. Alice has a snake as part of his act. I was worried about the snake.
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milee
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Post by milee on Feb 13, 2016 13:38:57 GMT -5
Oh, and I know I'm old so I'm not a good judge of stuff like this.
The first time I knew I was too old was a few years ago. My sister and I had always liked to go to the Aerosmith concerts in Phoenix. We were at a concert and there was a woman wearing almost nothing except a really large snake. I was horrified and told my sister that someone should make her leave; my sister agreed and said it was gross to see the woman in that tiny bikini and the snake was scary. I disagreed - neither of those things bothered me. I was worried that it was a loud, smoky environment that was very inappropriate for the poor snake, who must be terrified - she should leave so she could take better care of her snake. Sis told me if my biggest worry was that the snake was scared, that I was officially too old to go to any more concerts. I had the same thought at the Alice Cooper/Motley Crüe show last summer. Alice has a snake as part of his act. I was worried about the snake. No more concerts for you. Have you purchased your cardigan sweater yet?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2016 13:43:11 GMT -5
And again it's a prejudice. I'm sure there are lots of John's and Steven's and Mary's and Susie's that have been bad employees. But nobody automatically throws their resumes in the trash. Very, very true. It would be interesting to see data matching employee success to certain elements on a resume. My guess is that employers would get some surprises about how closely certain components are - and are not - tied to actual data.
But I haven't seen anyone keeping that kind of data. So we all deal with the imperfect human decision making process. In the beginning, we all get to choose how well we play the game. If I had a kid named "Dahomey" (and in the future I might since I've volunteered with foster kids for a long time and when my boys are grown I will probably have foster kids in my home), I'd advise him to head up his resume with his initials and prepare him for the concerns that employers might have so he has a chance at overcoming it.
In other words you will teach him to be ashamed of his name and his background and play by the rules.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2016 13:50:01 GMT -5
Most employees have to play by some rules if they choose to be employed by others.
I could say, no damn it, I don't care if people might not call a foreign sounding contractor, or a name they don't know how to pronounce! We will use surname in business name! ... But it isn't going to allow me to control the outcomes. I can't control other people's behavior even if I don't think it's right. Ultimately I can only control my own and advocate for what I think is right in the meantime.
I love my tattoos. I'm not ashamed of them at all. That doesn't mean I can't completely cover them with professional clothing if needed.
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milee
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Post by milee on Feb 13, 2016 13:50:48 GMT -5
Very, very true. It would be interesting to see data matching employee success to certain elements on a resume. My guess is that employers would get some surprises about how closely certain components are - and are not - tied to actual data.
But I haven't seen anyone keeping that kind of data. So we all deal with the imperfect human decision making process. In the beginning, we all get to choose how well we play the game. If I had a kid named "Dahomey" (and in the future I might since I've volunteered with foster kids for a long time and when my boys are grown I will probably have foster kids in my home), I'd advise him to head up his resume with his initials and prepare him for the concerns that employers might have so he has a chance at overcoming it.
In other words you will teach him to be ashamed of his name and his background and play by the rules. I'm not the one who needs an epiphany here.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2016 13:54:46 GMT -5
In other words you will teach him to be ashamed of his name and his background and play by the rules. I'm not the one who needs an epiphany here. I had the epiphany. Way back when on this thread I said it's about buckling under and playing by the rules. As set by the current elite. My one hope is that there are people with weird names like P. Diddy, Beyoncé and Ice Cube that are becoming corporate elite and there will be more diversity in those that make the rules.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 13, 2016 13:57:19 GMT -5
milee, zib is agreeing with you. Doesn't that tell you anything? Yeah. It is harsh. I get that.
Sorry you're being used to get at me.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 13, 2016 14:01:52 GMT -5
I get what Milee is saying. It isn't right or fair, but it exists and you really can't assume going into a job that one company doesn't pay attention to names. You get one chance and you want to put your best foot forward from the beginning.
So at the end, is it better to stand by your principles and remain unemployed, or is it better to subvert get employed and try to change things from the inside?
Life isn't fair. Acknowledging that it isn't fair is half the battle and figuring out a work around the other half.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2016 14:05:29 GMT -5
I get what Milee is saying. It isn't right or fair, but it exists and you really can't assume going into a job that one company doesn't pay attention to names. You get one chance and you want to put your best foot forward from the beginning. So at the end, is it better to stand by your principles and remain unemployed, or is it better to subvert get employed and try to change things from the inside? Life isn't fair. Acknowledging that it isn't fair is half the battle and figuring out a work around the other half. I got what milee was saying as well. What I didn't agree with was justifying it. Or doing the same thing if you are the one in the decision making seat.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 13, 2016 14:11:00 GMT -5
I get what Milee is saying. It isn't right or fair, but it exists and you really can't assume going into a job that one company doesn't pay attention to names. You get one chance and you want to put your best foot forward from the beginning. So at the end, is it better to stand by your principles and remain unemployed, or is it better to subvert get employed and try to change things from the inside? Life isn't fair. Acknowledging that it isn't fair is half the battle and figuring out a work around the other half. I got what milee was saying as well. What I didn't agree with was justifying it. Or doing the same thing if you are the one in the decision making seat. She isn't justifying it. She is explaining why it exists and what the basis is. Is this valid? Who knows? Unless someone has done a study examining whether or not those off the wall names do produce a less successful employee, then perceptions are what is going to count primarily.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 13, 2016 14:28:44 GMT -5
We had an fellow at work who was from Swaziland. His name was a series of clicks. Yeah, he had no choice but to change it to something the North American tongue could pronounce. And write.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 13, 2016 14:35:27 GMT -5
It must have been interesting interviewing him.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 13, 2016 15:09:35 GMT -5
The ghetto names come from no culture stemming from another country.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Feb 13, 2016 15:12:22 GMT -5
I was watching an old Bones program last night. The computer gal was pregnant and her hippy-Dippy Dad showed up and had an vision of what their baby should be named. He picked the name Stacatto Mambo......does anyone possibly see anything wrong with that name vs. the one the parents had picked out, being Michael Vincent?
If HR is looking at 2 very similar resumes, I too say the one that wins has a name that doesn't need to be sounded out to figure out what the persons name is and how to pronounce it. Just using this as an example... in the business world I 'live in' people with difficult names often go by a 'preferred' name. So there's some chance that when Stacatto Mambo's resume arrives in HR - he may have made it evident that he goes by "Otto" or "Stan" or maybe something totally different like "Fred". I would think that for an employer who is looking to hire someone with experience (versus a first job) an odd name might not be that problematic... they might be looking more at work experience than the name. especially if there's a useable 'nickname' that the employee indicates is acceptable. A list of jobs/experience on a resume might indicate is the applicant is able to move between their "professional life" and their "home life". <-- and believe me EVERYONE moves between their "professional life" and their "home life". fwiw - I go by a nickname that throws most people off when they see my actual name... it gets even better since some of the people at work use my given name and some people use my nickname Everyone seems to have coped with it and they too seem to like that I have aliases. I actually go by a bunch of different nicknames IRL have since HS. (The whole "people using nicknames" is why people get assigned an employee ID - there's no guarantee that people will ALWAYS use their official name (there's no way to link "Stacatto Mambo" with "Otto Mambo" with "O Mambo" with "S Mambo" in a database - a unique ID is required. You have no idea how often I had to explain this people at work back in the olden days - before 'computer stuff' was required at school. ) Names are dynamic this is why we are all Numbers and not Names in databases.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Feb 13, 2016 15:18:26 GMT -5
I get what Milee is saying. It isn't right or fair, but it exists and you really can't assume going into a job that one company doesn't pay attention to names. You get one chance and you want to put your best foot forward from the beginning. So at the end, is it better to stand by your principles and remain unemployed, or is it better to subvert get employed and try to change things from the inside? Life isn't fair. Acknowledging that it isn't fair is half the battle and figuring out a work around the other half. I got what milee was saying as well. What I didn't agree with was justifying it. Or doing the same thing if you are the one in the decision making seat. I don't think milee is justifying it. She's describing the way it works. Acknowledging the way something works... doesn't mean you agree with it. The whole name thing isn't that much different from describing what happens when a candidate gets to the interview and is 'rejected' on first sight because they are obese or is perceived as 'unattractive' or "too tall" or "too short" or the wrong gender -- by the interviewer. The candidate looked good on paper - but then has to overcome the biases and prejudices of the interviewer (or maybe even the corporate culture of the potential employer).
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 13, 2016 15:19:37 GMT -5
Real Africans don't name their children ghetto names. This only started in the last few decades.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2016 15:20:50 GMT -5
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Feb 13, 2016 15:20:53 GMT -5
If you have otherwise similar applicants you look for anything to distinguish them. Maybe one has a ghetto sounding name, maybe one went to your alma mater, etc. When it comes down to trying to weed through lots of applicants you have to cull the herd somehow.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 13, 2016 15:21:16 GMT -5
Also - people are creating their cultures continuously. It doesn't have to harken back to olden days to be legit. This is very true but if you want to embrace a new culture, then be prepared for the results.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 13, 2016 15:22:56 GMT -5
If you have otherwise similar applicants you look for anything to distinguish them. Maybe one has a ghetto sounding name, maybe one went to your alma mater, etc. When it comes down to trying to weed through lots of applicants you have to cull the herd somehow. This is very true in Florida. There seem to be only two schools and no way does one hire from the other school. But an out of state school trumps both!
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 13, 2016 15:26:44 GMT -5
Real Africans don't name their children ghetto names. This only started in the last few decades. So what? That gives employers license to discriminant because their parents rejected the conventional names? Bull shit. Employers found to be doing this should be sued. Groups are free to create names that do not involve not using european type names. I, for one, can imagine a host of motivation in which particular groups may want to reject any european name out of hand as inappropriate. Oppressive even. It should disadvantage them in the work world. And again - if it does, shame on the employers. I understand what you're saying.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 13, 2016 15:27:24 GMT -5
We had this debate on the old boards about whether "ethnic" named folks have trouble getting hired. His wife's given name was "Shaniqua". It was pretty quickly pointed out that most people consider that name "ghetto", not "ethnic". She had lovely qualities and a fine resume, but there are going to be some folks out there who will have already drawn their own conclusion.
So to the business owners participating in this thread, how would you handle this situation? Would you toss the resume after seeing the name? Is it a non-issue for you? Does it all come down to the skills? Or is it "my company, my rules"?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 13, 2016 15:29:11 GMT -5
We had this debate on the old boards about whether "ethnic" named folks have trouble getting hired. His wife's given name was "Shaniqua". It was pretty quickly pointed out that most people consider that name "ghetto", not "ethnic". She had lovely qualities and a fine resume, but there are going to be some folks out there who will have already drawn their own conclusion. So to the business owners participating in this thread, how would you handle this situation? Would you toss the resume after seeing the name? Is it a non-issue for you? Does it all come down to the skills? Or is it "my company, my rules"? It's going to depend on the circumstances. The employer as well.
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