The Job Hunt Thread

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I think the recruiter job is a little too out of my wheelhouse. I don't have experience with designing LIMs systems and I definitely don't have an IT background.

It says they'd take lab experience but IDK.

We'll see. It never hurts to look and it may lead to other things.

[Ava]

If you can have a call with the recruiter, they may keep you in mind for other opportunities, even if this one is not a good fit.

[Ava]

I know what you mean about not having opportunities with current company.

My manager has become a bully, I'm sorry to say. Interacting with him is a roller coaster ride.
I'm not going to complain to HR or anything, I'm just stating what I see.

Looks like what he meant by saying he'd change my review; it happened in his mind. If he had changed it to "Does not meet expectations" on paper, I would never get a raise and a bonus. That why I thought I would get nothing. He made it sound like he went back and changed my rating. After yesterday's call I realized he did not.

But yes, I need to start looking outside current company, even if it's just to open more doors and speed up the process. 
It's so difficult to start a job search after 12 years. It's scary. And I was 38 back then, now I'm 51.

The idea of taking a significant cut in income and have less PTO makes me sad.
Makes me question everything. All the years working full-time and attending school full-time at night, the student loans I have, the unconscious decision of staying with the same group and the same manager for so long, etc.

The silver lining on getting a new layer of management between me and this guy is that the newly appointed manager gets along with me. I can put her as a reference, since she's soon to be my direct manager.

I'm not that bad. I don't fit the new structure and the new expectations, but I'm not a disaster.
He has changed a lot. It used to be that you could tell him anything, and as long as you were respectful, he would be fine with it.
Not anymore. Last time I had an honest conversation with him, he became very aggressive.
Now I just don't say anything. I keep quiet.

[Sharon]

Ava I know all about job hunting after a long time with one company, except I was with my company for 38 years.  I started there when I was 20 years old and left as a 58 year old.  Was I worried that I wouldn't be hired at my age, absolutely.  I was also scared about having to learn a new job, make connections with new co-workers etc

This was almost 6 years ago, my job search lasted about 5 months.  I was hired on with a 30% pay raise, less PTO which sucks but it is what it is.  The money does help some with that.  During my job search I was also very selective about where I applied.  I didn't want to take another job to just get out of my situation, the business was failing and was in the process of being sold.  I only applied for jobs that I thought I would be happy doing until I retired.  The main job functions had to match what were the favorite parts of my current job.

In the end I did end up being part of a company wide reorganization and got moved back to the IS department, which I didn't really want, but at least my boss was moved at the same time I was so he is still my boss.

ETA: Things were so bad at my previous workplace that people were opening sharing with co-workers that they were looking to leave, we would gather in an office and review each other's resumes and pass along job openings we thought would interest other co-workers.

[Ava]

Feb 18, 2024 9:35:34 GMT -5 Sharon said:

Ava I know all about job hunting after a long time with one company, except I was with my company for 38 years.  I started there when I was 20 years old and left as a 58 year old.  Was I worried that I wouldn't be hired at my age, absolutely.  I was also scared about having to learn a new job, make connections with new co-workers etc

This was almost 6 years ago, my job search lasted about 5 months.  I was hired on with a 30% pay raise, less PTO which sucks but it is what it is.  The money does help some with that.  During my job search I was also very selective about where I applied.  I didn't want to take another job to just get out of my situation, the business was failing and was in the process of being sold.  I only applied for jobs that I thought I would be happy doing until I retired.  The main job functions had to match what were the favorite parts of my current job.

In the end I did end up being part of a company wide reorganization and got moved back to the IS department, which I didn't really want, but at least my boss was moved at the same time I was so he is still my boss.

ETA: Things were so bad at my previous workplace that people were opening sharing with co-workers that they were looking to leave, we would gather in an office and review each other's resumes and pass along job openings we thought would interest other co-workers.

I'm so glad things worked out for you.
And thank you for taking the time to write that message.
I will start work earlier tomorrow, so I can end earlier and go to the library to send 3 applications.
I need to take this job search seriously and not do one application at a time.

[giramomma]

I don't know that the issue is doing one application at a time.

By the time I got done with every first interview I had spent about 5 hours on each job application; writing the individual cover letter, tweaking my resume, doing research on the unit/organization, and prepping for the interview. And doing things like balancing my work schedule to make room for taking interviews.

Even this last one, where they didn't even want a cover letter. I sent in my resume. I still ended up sinking about 4 hours on the interviews, scheduling and prep.

ETA: That's one thing I remarked to DH. When they tell you to spend 8 hours a day looking for jobs when you've been laid off. That sounds like you should have time to apply for a bunch of jobs a day. After me applying to all those jobs, I had a very different outlook.

So, I guess I would just at least consider pacing yourself. When I did my interviews I also scheduled myself out some time before. Because I didn't want to be putting out fires and then hop right into an interview.

I've mostly taken half days off here and there this past year. So, I didn't worry so much about randomly taking a bit of time off. It didn't look like I was applying for jobs.

I would be concerned about taking time off for interviews right after you coming back from vacation. The optics might not be in your favor, to be off of work for a vacation, and then take more time off, at the last minute.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I feel like the 8 hour a day advice is from the same old school mentality that you need to hit the pavement and ask for a paper application everywhere you go.

It's not designed for today when you need a cover letter, a CV, a resume, then you fill out an application with all that information again, now go to this tab and answer questions that we'd know the answer to if we read the application.  Make sure every answer is at least 500 words.

Now take this 15 minute personality test.  Now take this 30 minute quiz to show us your ability to problem solve.  Now give a stool sample, now a DNA swab, now your entire family tree  . .

I've passed on jobs I may be qualified for after getting over an hour into it on Indeed.   I suppose the rationale is that they are getting "pre-screening" done ahead of time.  But then if you do go through all that and get an interview they ask you the same damn questions!

[azucena]

Posting for advice to give my brother.

He's 40, single, no kids. He has a master's in comp sci and has worked as a programmer for the same company since grad school. Company provides one of the top electronic medical record software packages so he's constantly working long hours to roll out new stuff or fix bugs. No student loans or debt. Rents a non-flashy apt here in StL so mid range COL. He's a saver but hasn't shared details about salary or retirement except to allude to sitting on enough cash to stop working for 3-5 yrs. Company was much smaller when he started and I know he's taken advantage of stock options for years.

For several months now, he's been feeling burnt out enough to quit without a backup plan in place. Just truly take the time off and see what happens. He seems to have health insurance expense accounted for. He put in his two weeks notice yesterday and his boss is scrambling to keep him and seems to be offering everything under the sun. I'm having dinner with him tonight to brainstorm his options and what he should ask for. Sounds like he could ask for a bunch of stuff and maybe get most of it approved because they really want him. Turnover is high in this company/field and he's a known producer.

I totally get the burn out but wonder if quitting is really the right option. His type of skills are likely to get stale pretty quickly. Need to ask him if he's thinking a full career change.

His company has/had a rare sabbatical program. Every 3 years he gets 1-2 months off paid. I think the 2 months comes in if he volunteers somewhere for two weeks. He usually does Habitat and has taken 3 sabbaticals that I remember because I'm totally jealous of this option. Company was purchased last year and I haven't kept up with him if sabbatical went away. That's the first option his boss offered though saying she'd have to get HR approval. Wondering if he could ask for 6 months even unpaid to get a truer break.

He seems to be a problem solver which has led to him being moved thru 16 teams in the last 7 years with something like 12 different managers. I know he's completely tired of learning new people and styles and jumping in to fix broken code and putting out fires. His boss mentioned yesterday that there's a huge note in his file about how flexible he is, great at fixing, and so easy to work with. He didn't realize that was in writing but it goes a long way towards explaining his path at the company. I'd make that item number 2 and ask to pick the type of project and/or team and stay put until I spoke up asking for change.

He's on call a bunch and often works 50-60 hour weeks. I know he's over that and can't see a pay raise really fixing that for him. So I'd make that the next request - solid 40 with rare overtime.

They keep trying to promote him to management but he's way more introverted than me. Dude gets completely nervous giving interviews. So he keeps fending off promotion. I'd suggest he make that an item. No people management, no more interviews.


I'm not sure of his vacation time or if he'd even want more. He likes to travel but stinks that he doesn't have someone to go with. He and DH camp a couple times per year as they are pretty good friends. I'm okay with DH spending more on trips with him but DH doesn't get a ton of time off and we use most of it on family stuff.

Could consider asking for 4 day work week.

What else should he consider?

[finnime]

One thing for your DB to think about, azucena , is does he want to do development programming or maintenance/trouble-shooting? Because if he's bent in the one way, to be sadddled doing the other would inevitably lead to burnout.

The long sabbatical sounds like a great thing to ask for.

Also, respect the cycle of work, and not immediately jump into another project when the one in progress is done. Take a break and work only 35 hours a week for a couple of weeks. Then when the work deepens and bugs pile up, work 50 hours a week until that's cleared.

I worked for years in healthcare information systems development. I could probably guess which company your brother works for. It's a good, solid and in-demand profession but anything can get stale, especially if your natural bent to do new development, say, is being served by having you do maintenance work.

A pile of money is always good.

I wish him well.

[Pink Cashmere]

azucena, your brother’s situation is so different from my world (in a great way for him), that I don’t have any good advice.

The only thing I can think of that I would ask him if he was my brother, is if he has any idea or plans on what he’d like to do next, after he’s taken a break.Would he like to do something totally different, or eventually get back into the same thing, if he can find a better fit for him, since even though he has a great cushion, it sounds like he’s going to need some income eventually. 

Since my position in the world is so different, I would probably tell my own brother to try to negotiate with his current employer and see if they can figure out something that works better for him and improves his quality of life, work/life balance, whatever he really needs, since they seem to be willing to do what they can to keep him. And if whatever they offer, still does not work for him and what he needs and wants for himself and his life, pat himself on the back for having done what it takes to put himself in a position where he can walk, and be fine. And then walk, if he still feels like that’s truly what he needs to do. But because I am a worrier, I would at least talk to him about having a plan for his next move after he retreats and regroups, since as well as he’s done for himself, it doesn’t sound like he is in a position to just stop working for forever.

[giramomma]

Can he look for a programmer job in a different industry? What about working in a non-profit.

What about looking into project management?

We have a medical record software company in our neck of the woods. Except the one here is privately held.

It sounds very similar, with the hours, sabbatical, etc.

From what I heard. It's no different.

If he's salaried, IMVHO, asking to be kept to a 40 hour week will yield nothing.

He needs to just enforce it. If he is not comfortable with that, perhaps he needs to start talking to folks. "I have 2342 things that are high priority. I can't reasonably can't get it done in the time alloted, given all my other responsibilities. You all need to start making decisions about what 10 things I need to prioritize. Are there meetings I can cut back on?

I don't know how being on call works. Is he scheduled to be on call after hours? If so, then I would take that into consideration when he starts his work day.

[azucena]

Finn - your comments are almost dead on. Great reinforcement so thank you.

Pink and Gira - yours both made me think of a few new things too.

Just got back from dinner and he seemed relieved to talk and brainstorm. He filed the paperwork for two months leave but isn't even sure which manager needs to sign it. Seems the phone call response to his resignation was the first time he'd spoken to who he thought was his main manager per the official org chart and she was assigned to the group about 8 months ago. He explained some other screwy things about current and past managers. Makes my job complaints seem super tame.

He said he finished 2023 hoping to be let go and knows that's no way to live. And in his field and company layoffs happen often to make budget and profit numbers.

If he stays in his current role where he was placed, he'll have to learn another platform and language. Something like the 9th combination in as many years and he's tired of that nut doesn't see a way out given their setup.

He does have one close work friend so will seek his advice next week.

He's too fried to figure out next move and is leaning towards quitting and riding out 2024 and then starting fresh.

I did my big sis duty and point blank asked him if depression was any part of this. He knows my history and has been there for me. He mumbled that he has been down but it's tolerable and then he clammed up which makes me think it's a bit worse. I haven't known him to be depressed before but my family isn't always open about that. Feels like I should tip my mom off about that point. DH rescued the conversation from there.

[finnime]

I'm glad the conversation went well, azucena. I agree w you, it does sound like he's wrestling w depression and that makes the job especially grating. A timeout would help a lot. You are providing him such an important support.

[TheOtherMe]

Definitely sounds like he has depression at the moment.  

It would have been great to have the financial ability to just quit when I was at my worst.  

He sounds totally burned out.

[raeoflyte]

I still kinda wish I had quit in 2020 just take a couple months off and then jump back in. 2021 was better but it took so long to recover.

But a sabbatical option sounds pretty freaking magical.

[Ava]

Another day, another rejection. Lol.
Trying to take it all in stride.

I've been rejected from the internal job I applied to.
Have not heard back from any of the applications I filled out on Saturday.
I have applied to purely accounting jobs, and no bites.
Reality indicates once you're past a certain young age it's very difficult to change careers.
I work in finance, trying to switch to accounting. 

Given my current situation, I think I need to speed the process up as much as I can.
The priority is to get out of Dodge. So I'm going to start applying for jobs similar to the one I currently have.

I don't feel confident about my resume. So I finally broke down and paid for a professionally prepared package.
It includes resume, LinkedIn profile, and presentation letter.
I found the service through Bogleheads. I lurk in there sometimes, and I saw a thread where someone was asking for volunteers to critique his resume and another poster suggested this website for a professionally written resume.
All told, its $100 for the package. Resume is $49, but I also added the cover letter and Linkedin profile.

I regret spending the money, but it will make me feel more confident in my job search.
Right now, I feel insecure about my resume. I don't have a cover letter, and my Linkedin profile kind of sucks.
So, the search continues this Saturday.

I don't know if I will apply to another internal job or not. The rejection was an impersonal automatic email. In the body of the email it said "make sure you fulfill all the requisites for the job before applying".
That's the rejection email they send to internal candidates. I don't know if it's the same for external candidates.
"All the requirements". That's a lot. So, if you have 5 years of experience and they ask for 7 years, don't even bother.
The more I learn about this company, the more disfunctional it seems to be.

I will continue to apply to external jobs, once I have my new resume, cover letter and Linkedin profile ready.
Right now, I'm going to take a few days while I get the new package.

I have a quarterly review next week. Now we have quarterly reviews. They give me a lot of anxiety.
And I was hoping I wouldn't have to go through another one, but here it is.

[seriousthistime]

I don't think it's unusual for an employer to reject an applicant that does not have all the requirements. 

I was a federal employee who applied for a different federal job.  They wanted extreme specificity about work experience.  They required 7 years of experience as of the date of your application and you needed to specify how many hours per week you worked in those 7 years. Someone who met the 7-year requirement the day after the applications closed but before interviewing, or who had 7 years of less than full-time experience, need not apply.

Early in my work life I worked for a large corporation.  I got fed up with the pay compression and being constrained by pay ranges and one-size-fits-all policies, etc. so I found a job with a small employer (10 people).  I found that small business owners are often not as flexible as you think.  They can do things "just because" and they are much more prone to looking at everything in terms of money coming directly from their pocket.  

Ava, I think I remember that your current employer said you won't be able to take a long vacation to your home country each winter. You really love to do that.  Why not take your savings and make the move now?  Wouldn't a US-educated CPA be desirable there?  I wonder if it would be easier to find a job that is more in line with your expectations. 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I would not waste time on internal positions.  The damage is done with your current company.  Even if you aren't on a formal PIP word has likely been spread about your performance issues.   I know here you are automatically rejected if it is disclosed you are having performance issues in your current position or get a certain score on your reviews.

You need to move to a place that doesn't have any history.  Hopefully this service you hired can help package you to sell you to other jobs.  I'd also consider working with a employment agency.   Their whole job is to put people into positions and they can help sell you to other companies.

[Ava]

I applied to 2 job placement agencies. One of them Robert Half. For now, radio silence.
I'm preparing for a long job search

[Ava]

Feb 29, 2024 10:13:33 GMT -5 seriousthistime said:

I don't think it's unusual for an employer to reject an applicant that does not have all the requirements. 

I was a federal employee who applied for a different federal job.  They wanted extreme specificity about work experience.  They required 7 years of experience as of the date of your application and you needed to specify how many hours per week you worked in those 7 years. Someone who met the 7-year requirement the day after the applications closed but before interviewing, or who had 7 years of less than full-time experience, need not apply.

Early in my work life I worked for a large corporation.  I got fed up with the pay compression and being constrained by pay ranges and one-size-fits-all policies, etc. so I found a job with a small employer (10 people).  I found that small business owners are often not as flexible as you think.  They can do things "just because" and they are much more prone to looking at everything in terms of money coming directly from their pocket.  

Ava, I think I remember that your current employer said you won't be able to take a long vacation to your home country each winter. You really love to do that.  Why not take your savings and make the move now?  Wouldn't a US-educated CPA be desirable there?  I wonder if it would be easier to find a job that is more in line with your expectations. 

Thank you.

I thought about moving back.
It's a very emotionally difficult decision.
I tried to start the process and it gave me panic attacks.
The job market is not the best back home and there are no guarantees I'll find a new job.

Moving back now means living in my mom's house after decades of independence. She's not an easy person and I don't want to depend on her for a place to live.

Plus the retirement system is completely different. I would not have the possibility to save and invest in my retirement accounts anymore. Rather work a few more years here and be financially independent.

[Ava]

About the vacation they said not to go over 15 PTO days.

Since I go during the holidays and I get three extra days (Dec. 25, Jan. 1 and MLK), it's still almost 4 weeks.
That's more I would get somewhere else.

The problem is the way the manager treats me and the he's said I have 0% chances of promotion

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Feb 29, 2024 10:56:07 GMT -5 Ava said:

About the vacation they said not to go over 15 PTO days.

Since I go during the holidays and I get three extra days (Dec. 25, Jan. 1 and MLK), it's still almost 4 weeks.
That's more I would get somewhere else.

The problem is the way the manager treats me and the he's said I have 0% chances of promotion

Should you really be looking for one though?   I get the impression that you feel you deserve one because you are an older employee and have a longer work history but your job as it stands is giving you incredible anxiety and your performance has tanked.  A promotion is also likely to come with an end to your 4 week vacations as well depending on your job duties.

If you cannot do your current job that indicates you aren't ready for a higher position with more responsibilities.

I am not saying this to be mean.  I am saying this because I think you need to be realistic.  Not everyone is suited for promotion.  Not everyone wants one.  And that's okay!  Sometimes being middle of the road is enough and better for mental health.

I think your highest priority needs to be showing you can do the job you have now to remain attractive to potential employers and get as good a reference as you can from this job.

[Ava]

No, it's fine. You re not mean and I appreciate the honesty.

Yes, I'm trying to be the best I can for current job.
We were purchased by a much bigger entity and absorbed by it.
The environment, expectations, etc. Everything has changed.
I don't thrive in current environment.

I want to leave with a good reference and a good reputation.

It's not like I'm looking for a promotion right away, but I want to have a path to it. I can do very well in the right environment but this isn't it.

Plus I don't want to work for someone who's become a bully.

My tenure with this company is 12 years. It's been 10 years with the same team and 6 in current position.

It's time to spread my wings and fly the nest.
Anyone else would have left a while ago, but I was stupid and tried to make this work for way too long.
All hopes went out the window when he became disrespectful.

Not too worried about vacation going forward. I'll still be able to visit for at least a couple of weeks.
All going well I only plan to work a few more years.

Search continues Saturday.

[giramomma]

Feb 29, 2024 10:46:34 GMT -5 Ava said:

I applied to 2 job placement agencies. One of them Robert Half. For now, radio silence.
I'm preparing for a long job search

Career services told me it would take from 6-18 months of serious looking to land a new job..

It's been 11 months since the big thing; and I would say 5-6 months of hard applying.

My first interview rate is about 50% my second interview rate is about 25-30%. (It's hard to quantify with this last job I applied for that had 3 interviews, and I didn't make it to the third round).

I've got two more jobs to apply for this weekend. One in my wheelhouse directly and one not so much. Both less than I'm making now, and I am hopeful I can negotiate up if it even comes to that.

[giramomma]

I'm wondering, Ava, if you can think differently about promotion.

Promotion and growth on the job can be two separate things.

I will never be promoted. The only place I can go, in terms of promotion, is people management.  There is no way I would take a people management position at my workplace. 

I have a good amount of different paths, though, that could be open to me if folks around me were really committed to growing my skills.

Jury is still out on whether or not folks are interested in helping me grow my skills. I'm still thinking, mostly, no. Despite having a conversation that signaled otherwise.

You can still be effective in a non-management position. 

[TheOtherMe]

I'm not so sure your boss is a bully.  He's taking orders from someone totally different and he has to get you to understand what he has to say to you.  How you perform affects how he is seen in the eyes of the people overhead.

He is not your friend.  He is your boss.  He has to enforce the company rules.  The higher ups don't seem to be happy with your performance and he has to make you comprehend that.  

I do hope you find something that fits you better.

[giramomma]

Just something else.

I would never, ever encourage you to stay in a toxic environment. I've been depressed over work, been so stressed I literally cannot eat or sleep. 

Again, I am not advocating for you to stay in a place that affects you like that. If it were just me in this world, I wouldn't stay. 

And, I have come to realize that I did play a part in the big thing. The situation was so escalated, that I couldn't see it.
Now, I can see how I could have made different choices. And knowing that I can make different choices. I'm a work in progress. I am trying, and I think that is recognized. 

[Pink Cashmere]

Feb 29, 2024 16:27:56 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

I'm not so sure your boss is a bully.  He's taking orders from someone totally different and he has to get you to understand what he has to say to you.  How you perform affects how he is seen in the eyes of the people overhead.

He is not your friend.  He is your boss.  He has to enforce the company rules.  The higher ups don't seem to be happy with your performance and he has to make you comprehend that.  

I do hope you find something that fits you better.

I will start by saying that my perspective and willingness to give Ava the benefit of the doubt regarding her boss is probably because of my experiences with horrible supervisors and managers over the years at my job.

Everything you said is probably true. I understand how that works even at my job, that a supervisor or manager can feel pressure from being held accountable for the employees working under them getting the job done.

But she says he is disrespectful and aggressive. I understand that that is subjective, and it might be just the way she is perceiving him, since I don’t recall (and may have just missed) any detailed description of an incident where e he was like that. But if he really is, being that way, it’s not okay.

I have had disrespectful bosses and I have had bosses that felt like they could talk to you any kind of way. I have also had bosses that were under pressure from their bosses to improve performance in the areas they were responsible for, but even if they were strictly by the book, they held their employees accountable in a professional manner and without being disrespectful or ugly, or anything else that an employee could take personally. Simply, these are the rules and/or expectations, and you are not meeting them in this/these specific ways. No smart remarks or jabs, no yelling or cursing (yes they do that at my job), just strictly business, and about you as an employee, nothing personal.

Her boss may very well be upset with her because he feels like she is making him look bad, if she is not performing the way his bosses require after the changes in the structure of how things work with their employer. He has every right to address those issues with her. If he has been giving her special consideration in the past, he has every right to stop doing that too, if he feels like she is not performing well enough to continue bending the rules to try to accommodate her. Idk if that’s actually part of it or not. All of that can be addressed in a professional manner, and without being disrespectful or aggressive, if that really is what his management style has become in response to pressure from his bosses.

Just my opinion, and worth exactly what you paid for it.

[TheOtherMe]

I have worked for horrible and wonderful bosses.  I have been treated respectfully and I have been yelled at and disrespected.  That's because the federal government pretty doesn't fire people unless you commit fraud.  I've seen a lot of people who could not perform the job promoted to management.

They were the most disrespectful and the ones who did the yelling.  They were out of their league.

I have seen managers change the way they treat people because of who they report to and I have seen managers step down from management because they can't do what upper management wants them to do.

Management is not why I retired early.  It was illness and the job and I had a really sucky manager at the end.

[Works4me]

Even before the corporate change, I do remember her telling about her boss yelling at her and being unprofessional in other ways. I also remember her talking about how it was such a change for him.

It's easy to say and yet so hard to do. People say grow a thicker skin and don't take it personally. I think you may need to do that but I myself have no idea how to do so.