Subpar employee - WWYD?

[MJ2.0]

I alluded to this in Firebird's thread, but I have a situation at work. In August one of my associates gave his notice. His position was posted and we started interviewing once he left. (I freaking hate interviewing BTW....) We found a great girl fresh out of college who would have been perfect, but my bosses took too long approving her offer amount and she got another job. After more interviewing we hired an internal employee.

She interviewed perfectly and came off as bubbly and eager to learn. We chose her and she started at the end of September. She was trained pretty intensely by another associate for about 1.5 months. She barely learned the responsibilities. I overheard what was going on each day while she trained. She seemed to want to talk about non work items a lot. She also appeared to take notes but never seemed to refer to them. Since then, all of us have spent time with her helping her. Everyone is seeing and saying the same thing: she doesn't retain anything and her notes are not helping her. I have another associate retiring at the end of the month and she's not being replaced. Training this new worker (it's been like 4 months now!) is the most mentally draining thing I've had to do here. I trained 3 people in my time here and have never experienced someone as uninterested and incapable of understanding our job responsibilities. The job is EASY! My bosses have expressed their concern several times about her, I've told them what I said above... also she spends a good chunk of time socializing and on the internet. Way too much time for a person who is unable to do her job.

I'm meeting with my bosses on the 29th. I've been subtly hinting that she's beyond help but they keep saying to just work with her more closely, that they know she can get this. It's extremely frustrating to have worked with someone for 4 months and have almost nothing to show for it. Should I just keep nodding and smiling and continue to help her, or should I just tell them we all want her gone? (We do)

[suesinfl]

Is she still on probation and can she go back to her old position? What were work habits in her old position? A lot of questions I know, but just some things to think about.

Have you had a heart to heart talk with her about her socializing and being on the internet too much? Maybe try counseling her before totally letting her go.

[Sharon]

You need to take concrete info to the bosses.  On this day she spent this much time on the internet.  We trained on these items for 4 hours on this day and the next day co-worker had to spend x number of hours helping her because she was unable to remember how to perform the tasks.

A co-worker once referred to one of co-workers who was like that.  He said it is just like that movie Ground Hog day.  You do the same thing over and over each day and it is brand new, never heard it before, each day.

[MJ2.0]

One of her former bosses told my associate who's retiring that this girl put way more effort into other work activities (we do big volunteer/charity events) than her actual job. That she interviews well but does not deliver. Of course I found that out AFTER I hired her.

[MJ2.0]

Re: probation... I don't know. She was only at her previous position for 3 months. When I asked her about it in the interview, she said they were restructuring. I'm starting to think that was a lie.

[andi9899]

I would sit her down and tell her that she needs to get it together or action will start towards termination. Lay out what needs to happen and the course of action that will be taken. Then start documenting. You can't just fire her without warning. If she truly wants to work there, she will get her stuff straight. If not, she will start looking for another job and solve your problem for you.

[mmhmm]

Has the employee been counseled about her performance in either position?

[MJ2.0]

Jan 21, 2016 20:42:15 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Has the employee been counseled about her performance in either position?

She's been with the company over 10 years but most of that was in a retail location. She has been in our office 4 years I think. In that time I think she had 3 other positions. Now that I'm typing that, that sounds pretty bad. No idea about her performance reviews. I should have access to her info so I'll take a look tomorrow.

[Tennesseer]

It's time to start the performance improvement process.

[Tennesseer]

MJ-document your efforts to improve her performance.

[mmhmm]

Jan 21, 2016 20:48:07 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

Jan 21, 2016 20:42:15 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Has the employee been counseled about her performance in either position?

She's been with the company over 10 years but most of that was in a retail location. She has been in our office 4 years I think. In that time I think she had 3 other positions. Now that I'm typing that, that sounds pretty bad. No idea about her performance reviews. I should have access to her info so I'll take a look tomorrow.

Yep. That should be your first step. Find out what's in her records that might help you. If you haven't counseled her on her performance, that should be your next step. Set up a time and have your ducks in a row. Draw up a performance review documenting the problems you're seeing and how they're having an impact on the functioning of your area. Once the review has been completed, sign the documentation and have her sign the documentation. Unless you're working in an environment very different than any I've experienced, written and signed documentation will be required before an employee can be terminated. She'll have to be given the opportunity to change her ways and correct her deficiencies (in my experiences, 3 formal reviews were required with full documentation of failure to improve performance sufficient to continue). It's all about CYA.

[dannylion]

Jan 21, 2016 20:36:39 GMT -5 Sharon said:

You need to take concrete info to the bosses.  On this day she spent this much time on the internet.  We trained on these items for 4 hours on this day and the next day co-worker had to spend x number of hours helping her because she was unable to remember how to perform the tasks.

A co-worker once referred to one of co-workers who was like that.  He said it is just like that movie Ground Hog day.  You do the same thing over and over each day and it is brand new, never heard it before, each day.

Until you can take a substantial body of concrete evidence regarding what the problem is (the problem is HER, not the trainers or training), the bosses are going to believe that the problem is with the people doing the training.  It is easier to believe that than to accept responsibility for the uncomfortable conversation they would have to have with her if they admitted the problem was her. 

If you have many, many examples just as Sharon described, presented in a neutral tone and focusing on the training that was done (and the time spent in training) and the repeated unsatisfactory results in specific, concrete, unemotional terms, they will have to acknowledge that the problem is her.  The evidence has to demonstrate that she is not succeeding at a majority of her tasks.  It should not just be focused on one or two items because that would encourage the bosses to continue to think the problem was fixable. 

BTW, I had a supervisor once who described talking to a similar employee as being like "punching a sponge." 

[Wisconsin Beth]

Al s o check your employee handbook and/or the personnel files for an Internet usage policy. Here, I have to sign off on having recd and I think read it. If she's online alot, you or your it dept can probably track it.

And be prepared for documenting part to suck up a ton more of your day than you expect it to.

[happyhoix]

 
You need to be perfectly frank with her and explain that the other employees were able to understand the job role and start performing their functions within X time frame, but here we are at Y months and she's still not doing all her job responsibilities at the necessary speed. She may be the kind of person who thinks everything is perfectly hunky dory unless you spell things out for her in very clear cut words.

You don't have to be mean about it - just express concern that this may not be the job for her, since she's having trouble grasping the work responsibilities. Then outline exactly what you need her to achieve - by X date, she needs to be able to do Y by herself. By A date, she needs to be able to produce B number of documents per day (all correct). Then if she can't meet those goals, you have something concrete to take to your manager to demonstrate her poor job performance. 
 
Hopefully if you explain to her she's not cutting it, it will motivate her to improve. If it doesn't  - then, it will help you document why she has to go.


 

[MJ2.0]

I did some digging and had a nice conversation with a former boss of hers.  I'll just say that there are politics heavily in play here, and I despise that stuff.  Things are much more clear now and I understand what the issues are.

Yes, I'm documenting the hell out of everything now.

[Tennesseer]

For thirty years I worked for a very large company (I retired 11 years ago).  About 20 years ago, a group from our IT division created an On-Line Compliment and Counseling (OLCC) program for management to use when counseling and complimenting an employee.  When it came to counseling, both the manager and employee acknowledged the counseling on the computer.  If employee refused, another manager was called in to witness the employee refusing and that second manager then acknowledged the discussion on-line.  Formal letters of discipline and performance improvement (issued after several counselings) were on paper and scanned into the system for retention along with a copy in the employee's file.

If MJ's company is big enough, it might warrant them creating something like that for management's use.  

[973beachbum]

I will be honest. I was a lot smarter when I was younger!!!

I have done a few different jobs and some are what I would consider hard things to learn smarts wise but somehow easier tasks now seem harder for me to learn.  I think that is why people in their middle years don't try and change jobs or take as much risk with the ones they have.

Just as an example my real job by any metric takes more smarts than my second job at the grocery store.  Most of what I do at the GC could be done by a trained monkey.  I guess you would have to work really hard training him not to eat the customers food but other than that.

It is just so many steps for every little thing.  So when someone "trains" you it is more me watching them push buttons on the screen and getting lost by the fourth screen.  No one thing is hard at all.  It is all super easy.  But for every super easy thing, there seem to be twenty steps which I have to remember. 

I do eventually learn things.  I really do, but I have found I have to actually do those things myself, not someone else pushing buttons in front of me, 8 or ten times.  I'm sure there have been days where more than one obnoxious 16 yr old has been annoyed with me because I took a really long time to do something they could have done in two seconds.

[MJ2.0]

Jan 22, 2016 13:24:08 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

I will be honest. I was a lot smarter when I was younger!!!

I have done a few different jobs and some are what I would consider hard things to learn smarts wise but somehow easier tasks now seem harder for me to learn.  I think that is why people in their middle years don't try and change jobs or take as much risk with the ones they have.

Just as an example my real job by any metric takes more smarts than my second job at the grocery store.  Most of what I do at the GC could be done by a trained monkey.  I guess you would have to work really hard training him not to eat the customers food but other than that.

It is just so many steps for every little thing.  So when someone "trains" you it is more me watching them push buttons on the screen and getting lost by the fourth screen.  No one thing is hard at all.  It is all super easy.  But for every super easy thing, there seem to be twenty steps which I have to remember. 

I do eventually learn things.  I really do, but I have found I have to actually do those things myself, not someone else pushing buttons in front of me, 8 or ten times.  I'm sure there have been days where more than one obnoxious 16 yr old has been annoyed with me because I took a really long time to do something they could have done in two seconds.

she's younger than I am, so it's not an age thing.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

4 months is enough time to not have to have someone hold your hand, IMO.  You may still ask questions, but you shouldn't be having to have people daily tell you what to do anymore.

I have a shit ton of complicated stuff I have to learn in this lab.   Two months is enough time for me to have learned to go thru the motions of the protocol.   Yes I still ask questions and need help with troubleshooting but I have mastered the general concept.

If I was still having to have people do the protocol FOR me there is a problem.

Does that make any sense?  Everyone is around for me to ask a question and is cool with it, but I am no longer taking up the majority of their day.

[mmhmm]

Jan 22, 2016 12:47:59 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

I did some digging and had a nice conversation with a former boss of hers.  I'll just say that there are politics heavily in play here, and I despise that stuff.  Things are much more clear now and I understand what the issues are.

Yes, I'm documenting the hell out of everything now.

Whoa, Nellie! I'm with you. When company politics gets involved the whole mess degenerates into the topside version of hell! You're right, though. Thorough, consistent documentation is key. If it's not written, it didn't happen - so be sure you catch as many as you can of her shenanigans and get your documentation and your witnesses (if any) in line. She should have clear cut tasks and solid completion times. That way she can't say she "didn't know". I've fought these battles and I know they can be won; however, they're one heck of a lot harder to win when company political garbage is clogging up the works. Good  luck!

[mmhmm]

Something else just occurred to me:  I don't know how long you've been with this company but - do you know any of the other department heads upon whose departments this person's failures may be having an impact? That's crucial information. You'll also want to find out if you'll have their backing should this mess boil over and make a mess. This is often information you have to finesse, so  be careful how you go about winkling it out. When politics are involved, you have to be absolutely sure you hit all your bases and gather as much information as is possible and keep that info on the QT until you need it.

[MJ2.0]

I briefly filled my boss's boss (boss is out sick today) in. He is not at all amused.

I've been here almost 7.5 years. In that time I have earned the trust and respect of my direct boss, his boss (VP), some if not all of the VP/management in the adjacent logistics department, as well as other managers in wholesale and accounting branches. I don't have anyone in HR in my corner, but I have plenty of other management that I think would be willing to go to bat for me if needed.

[mmhmm]

Jan 22, 2016 14:09:28 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

I briefly filled my boss's boss (boss is out sick today) in. He is not at all amused.

I've been here almost 7.5 years. In that time I have earned the trust and respect of my direct boss, his boss (VP), some if not all of the VP/management in the adjacent logistics department, as well as other managers in wholesale and accounting branches. I don't have anyone in HR in my corner, but I have plenty of other management that I think would be willing to go to bat for me if needed.

Out-damn-standing! You've got this! As long as your documentation is strong and consistent and you've done everything you can to give this employee a chance to shape up, you're in an excellent position. I hope you can succeed in either getting her to shape up or getting her out. There's little worse than a poorly performing employee who just keeps on keeping on. It literally destroys morale as well as damaging productivity.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

There's little worse than a poorly performing employee who just keeps on keeping on. It literally destroys morale as well as damaging productivity

Yep.  Just be prepared in case she has the ear of someone really high up that nothing will come of this.  Try to decide how far you want to go to try to get rid of her.

 When DH and several others complained about the shitty QA they were told by the president of the company that she was "special" so shut up or else you'd be the one getting it.

She doesn't do anything except troll for men at work.  Maybe the president is one of her trolls!   Then everything would make sense.

[Wisconsin Beth]

If you start forcing her to work to par, she may opt to try to transfer to a different dept. It's not like you'd stop her, which probably has been a part of her time there.

[MJ2.0]

all I can say is this: if things stay the way they are, I will likely lose my entire team to other opportunities before the year is out. NO ONE is worth losing 2-3 people.

[gooddecisions]

Tough situation. Depending on the complexity of the job, 4 months is not always enough time to get completely up to speed. There are holistic learners, serialistic learners, visual learners, audio learners, tactile learners, etc. You may or may not actually be giving her the type of training that works for her in a way that gets results quickly.

If it were me, I'd start a conversation with her about how she thinks she is doing in the role and how confident she feels about her responsibilities. I'd listen and take notes. Then I'd ask her very specific questions about the tasks she's expected to perform and how confident she feels with said tasks. Ask if anything is going on that's preventing her from becoming proficient. Then share your assessment of her performance and what you would have expected her to be proficient in at this point of time. List out all the things her peers have been doing to help her in her role and ask her what your team could be doing differently to help her succeed. Discuss the issue with spending too much time on the internet and water cooler conversations. End the conversation by stating you want her to be successful and that you'll be checking in on progress weekly with a thorough assessment in 30 days. (or whatever you're comfortable with).

Good luck!

[MJ2.0]

Jan 22, 2016 14:51:22 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

If you start forcing her to work to par, she may opt to try to transfer to a different dept.

I would love that.

[happyhoix]

Jan 22, 2016 12:47:59 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

I did some digging and had a nice conversation with a former boss of hers.  I'll just say that there are politics heavily in play here, and I despise that stuff.  Things are much more clear now and I understand what the issues are.

Yes, I'm documenting the hell out of everything now.

Well, crap.

My DH works for a government office, and a year ago they brought in a truly awful employee into his department, despite the fact that his boss had interviewed a terrific candidate and wanted to hire her instead. HR insisted he hire the unqualified woman.  Lazy, couldn't (or wouldn't) learn what to do, took really long lunches, got into fights with other employees. Horrible.

It's very hard to fire a government employee, normally, but she seemed to be so bad they would surely let her go - and then Dh and his co-workers found out that the woman's MIL was a councilwoman, and that political favors were exchanged for giving her idiot DIL a job.

They're still stuck with her. She recently got into a screaming match with her boss and is still there. Needless to say, their morale sucks.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Jan 22, 2016 14:53:47 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

all I can say is this: if things stay the way they are, I will likely lose my entire team to other opportunities before the year is out. NO ONE is worth losing 2-3 people.

Tell that to DH's former company.