Vent. Timely, given "Women's Quota" Thread.

[milee]

Although I'm aware of sexism on the work place and at various places where I socialize or volunteer, I don't usually get too worked up about it and try to just compete head on by being the best at whatever I'm doing. 

When I got my racing sailboat a few years ago, I knew there weren't any other women that owned them and that it was mostly hotshot guys sailing them.  But I loved the boat and I like our local fleet, so even though it was way too much boat for my ability level at that time, figured I'd just work hard, practice and keep out of the way of the hotshots until I got good.  And that's been working fine up to now.  The guys have been welcoming and have gone out of their way to be helpful to my team made up mostly of women.  I really felt like part of the fleet, even though I was a true beginner and many of these guys were former Olympic competitors and National Champions.

But now that my team and I are starting to win, things are changing.  The guys are still polite and friendly, but there are subtle differences.  The etiquette at regattas is that even if you don't win, you stay for the awards ceremony and clap for the people who won.  For several years now, I've been staying for awards ceremonies, cheering for my friends and congratulating them on their success even though my team was in last place.  I didn't mind, it's polite plus I thought these guys were my friends.  But yesterday, my team won a regatta - not a big deal, just a local thing - and the guys were noticeably shocked.  The "congratulations" were carefully phrased.  Instead of "great job - your starts were great and that was an amazing comeback in race 3" (example of how we all usually talk to each other), the comments were more along the lines of general talk, "that was some tough competition today.  It was great sailing out there."  And the team that came in 2nd (who usually wins - they own a sailing related business and the skipper had an Olympic campaign) looked embarrassed instead of happy for us.  None of the other guys in my fleet stayed for the awards ceremony.

There's a new boat in the fleet.  Normally the new owners seek out advice from the top finishing sailors.  Even though the new boat is stored between my boat and another boat (that finished several places behind us in the regatta) and my team and I were friendly and offered help, the new guys only asked questions of the other guy owners.  Oh, I think they did ask one of my female crew where the shallow spots in the bay were.  But technical questions went to the other guys.

This only seems to be an issue with the group of guys in my fleet, who I'm now beating.  I have great friends in all the other fleets and they were wildly happy for us and cheered loudly for us at the awards.  Tucker Thompson - America's Cup Commentator - was the guest presenter and he made a very funny little speech about how our team was the "crowd favorite", which was nice.  But it was hurtful that none of the guys from my fleet came to get their 2nd and 3rd place awards or to support my team's win.

I'm angry at this.  But if I'm honest, the anger probably stems mostly from hurt.  I can't help the fact that I'm small and female.  I can only control how competent I am.  And I thought that becoming competent would be enough.  But it's not.  Even when I prove that I'm competent, I will not ever really be part of the guy group if I compete as an equal,  nor will I be respected in the same way that they are if I do compete as an equal.  And it sucks.  And it makes me really angry.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

I can't help the fact that I'm small and female. I can only control how competent I am. And I thought that becoming competent would be enough. But it's not. Even when I prove that I'm competent, I will not ever really be part of the guy group if I compete as an equal, nor will I be respected in the same way that they are if I do compete as an equal. And it sucks. And it makes me really angry.

I honestly believe this is at minimum 50% of the reason I was laid-off last spring. Yes, there were financial difficulties that required a reduction in spending. But this is why I was chosen and not other avenues of cutbacks. I "showed up" the male administrators. 

[milee]

I should probably clarify that my life is pretty good so I'm not complaining about overall life. I'm just frustrated that women are confined to so few acceptable roles, many of which I don't like or want.

I don't want to be the sweet SAHM, who watches the kids while the hubby sails.

I don't want to be the friendly sailor-worshipping groupie.

I don't want to be the cool chick who brings the sailors snacks and drinks.

I don't want to be the cute beginner sailor who the guys are kind to but think of as a ditzy blonde.

I want to be a good sailor that's competitive with the fleet and is respected in the same way that the good male sailors are.  That does not seem unreasonable.  But I'm a little pissed that apparently that's not an OK role for women. 

[tallguy]

I'm angry at this. But if I'm honest, the anger probably stems mostly from hurt. I can't help the fact that I'm small and female. I can only control how competent I am. And I thought that becoming competent would be enough. But it's not. Even when I prove that I'm competent, I will not ever really be part of the guy group if I compete as an equal, nor will I be respected in the same way that they are if I do compete as an equal. And it sucks. And it makes me really angry.

Only thing to do, as I see it, is to keep winning.  They'll come around eventually.  And if they don't, who the hell cares?  They're losers!  Right?  

[quince]

It's extra fucked up that they were fine and friendly while you were doing well...as long as you weren't doing TOO well.

[NancysSummerSip]

Nov 8, 2015 16:51:57 GMT -5 milee said:

I don't want to be the sweet SAHM, who watches the kids while the hubby sails.

I don't want to be the friendly sailor-worshipping groupie.

I don't want to be the cool chick who brings the sailors snacks and drinks.

I don't want to be the cute beginner sailor who the guys are kind to but think of as a ditzy blonde.

No reason why you should be. You never did strike me as the bat-the-eyelashes, talk-like-Betty-Boop-type anyway.

I want to be a good sailor that's competitive with the fleet and is respected in the same way that the good male sailors are. That does not seem unreasonable. But I'm a little pissed that apparently that's not an OK role for women.

Do this. And do it consistently. If it keeps pissing them off, then they are not good people to be around, even if you have no choice.
Eventually, I think most of them will warm up to the fact that you are indeed the real deal on the water. At the moment, your presence caught them off-guard. But that's not your problem. You don't change who you are. If you are working at this, and meeting your fellow sailors in a manner that is on-par with them in terms of ability, manners, personality and knowledge, they they can just take their sails and hoist 'em up their heinies.

[weltschmerz]

Nov 8, 2015 16:42:35 GMT -5 milee said:

Although I'm aware of sexism on the work place and at various places where I socialize or volunteer, I don't usually get too worked up about it and try to just compete head on by being the best at whatever I'm doing. 

When I got my racing sailboat a few years ago, I knew there weren't any other women that owned them and that it was mostly hotshot guys sailing them.  But I loved the boat and I like our local fleet, so even though it was way too much boat for my ability level at that time, figured I'd just work hard, practice and keep out of the way of the hotshots until I got good.  And that's been working fine up to now.  The guys have been welcoming and have gone out of their way to be helpful to my team made up mostly of women.  I really felt like part of the fleet, even though I was a true beginner and many of these guys were former Olympic competitors and National Champions.

But now that my team and I are starting to win, things are changing.  The guys are still polite and friendly, but there are subtle differences.  The etiquette at regattas is that even if you don't win, you stay for the awards ceremony and clap for the people who won.  For several years now, I've been staying for awards ceremonies, cheering for my friends and congratulating them on their success even though my team was in last place.  I didn't mind, it's polite plus I thought these guys were my friends.  But yesterday, my team won a regatta - not a big deal, just a local thing - and the guys were noticeably shocked.  The "congratulations" were carefully phrased.  Instead of "great job - your starts were great and that was an amazing comeback in race 3" (example of how we all usually talk to each other), the comments were more along the lines of general talk, "that was some tough competition today.  It was great sailing out there."  And the team that came in 2nd (who usually wins - they own a sailing related business and the skipper had an Olympic campaign) looked embarrassed instead of happy for us.  None of the other guys in my fleet stayed for the awards ceremony.

There's a new boat in the fleet.  Normally the new owners seek out advice from the top finishing sailors.  Even though the new boat is stored between my boat and another boat (that finished several places behind us in the regatta) and my team and I were friendly and offered help, the new guys only asked questions of the other guy owners.  Oh, I think they did ask one of my female crew where the shallow spots in the bay were.  But technical questions went to the other guys.

This only seems to be an issue with the group of guys in my fleet, who I'm now beating.  I have great friends in all the other fleets and they were wildly happy for us and cheered loudly for us at the awards.  Tucker Thompson - America's Cup Commentator - was the guest presenter and he made a very funny little speech about how our team was the "crowd favorite", which was nice.  But it was hurtful that none of the guys from my fleet came to get their 2nd and 3rd place awards or to support my team's win.

I'm angry at this.  But if I'm honest, the anger probably stems mostly from hurt.  I can't help the fact that I'm small and female.  I can only control how competent I am.  And I thought that becoming competent would be enough.  But it's not.  Even when I prove that I'm competent, I will not ever really be part of the guy group if I compete as an equal,  nor will I be respected in the same way that they are if I do compete as an equal.  And it sucks.  And it makes me really angry.

You're surprised? I'm not. Guys can be real babies when....

1) They're sick.

2) They're bested by a woman.

[milee]

Nov 8, 2015 16:56:46 GMT -5 quince said:

It's extra fucked up that they were fine and friendly while you were doing well...as long as you weren't doing TOO well.

That's a very good way to summarize why I'm surprised and hurt.  My crew and I are very welcome as long as we're friendly and noncompetitive. Not so much if we actually get good enough to be a threat.

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

First,   on the win!!!!  

Second, I played ice hockey as a kid.  In the early 70s -- before Title IX had a chance to filter down and be taken seriously.  My older brother played, so I grew up in ice rinks and I played on the pond behind my house like all of the neighborhood kids -- boys and girls -- did.  I played on a girls' youth hockey team, but there was no girls' team at my high school.  I was a good goalie -- even earned the right to play in a breakaway competition between the periods of a televised Boston Bruins game.  I tried out for the boys team, but, of course, didn't make it.  The story in the Boston Globe reporting my tryout mentioned how I was cute enough to take to the prom but nothing about my goaltending skills.  

I feel your pain.  I understand it.  Men need to get a freaking grip and accept that women can, and will, be competent at many things and will even likely beat them at some things. 

F' 'em if they can't graciously accept defeat.  Keep winning.  Keep being gracious and supportive.  Let it be their "problem" and not yours.  

[moneymaven]

What sore losers! Congrats on a job well done, regardless of what's in your pants.

[mojothehelpermonkey]

Super lame! It sucks to know that you have proved yourself, but still realize you haven't earned someone's respect.
I used to surf, but I got tired of always feeling conspicuous. Most guys were just being friendly, but some were smug a-holes. Now I see a lot more girls in the water, and I think that's great. I stopped surfing for the same reason I didn't take auto shop in high school or major in physics in college. Being "allowed" to do something isn't always the same thing as being a welcome and accepted participant.

[quince]

Is it fucked up that in addition to being glad my son looks white, I'm glad my second fetus is also a boy, for similar reasons?


Glad people talk about this kind of thing, though. I'm sure there are some people out there who have knee-jerk reactions like this who might stop and take a look at what they are doing- not everyone operates in bad faith.

[milee]

Nov 8, 2015 17:05:24 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

First,   on the win!!!!  

Second, I played ice hockey as a kid.  In the early 70s -- before Title IX had a chance to filter down and be taken seriously.  My older brother played, so I grew up in ice rinks and I played on the pond behind my house like all of the neighborhood kids -- boys and girls -- did.  I played on a girls' youth hockey team, but there was no girls' team at my high school.  I was a good goalie -- even earned the right to play in a breakaway competition between the periods of a televised Boston Bruins game.  I tried out for the boys team, but, of course, didn't make it.  The story in the Boston Globe reporting my tryout mentioned how I was cute enough to take to the prom but nothing about my goaltending skills.  

Ugh. Have you seen that funny video about the group that's lobbying for reporters to ask female athletes about the sport instead of their appearance? It's great - shows clips where they ask male athletes actual questions that reporters just asked female athletes. Things like "can you twirl around and show us your outfit?" The reaction of the male athletes to the inappropriate questions that are regularly asked female athletes was awesome.

[milee]

www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/video-female-athletes-cover-the-athlete_563a7bede4b0307f2cabdd51

BTW, I'm in no way in the same league as these athletes, just thought it was relevant to GRG's story and also the lack of respect that I'm sensing in my sport.

[busymom]

Are any of your friends interesting in buying their own racing boat? You are currently a "trail-blazer", and like a lot of careers that were male-dominated in the 60's & 70's, the first women to break through the glass ceiling were basically treated like crap. Once the shock wears off that you are capable of doing as well, and better, than they are, & some more teams form of entirely women, it will become more "normal" for the guys.  Sorry you are going through this.  Pretend you don't even notice their poor sportsmanship, & keep competing! 

[MJ2.0]

Two words: small penises.

[tallguy]

Nine words:  You noticed I spoke up FOR the woman here....  

[Jaguar]

This is a good thread, thank you milee for starting it and congratulations on your win !

[MJ2.0]

Nov 8, 2015 18:19:30 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Nine words:  You noticed I spoke up FOR the woman here....  

I was talking about the men that weren't nice to milee, not all men!

[tallguy]

Nov 8, 2015 18:40:53 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

Nov 8, 2015 18:19:30 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Nine words:  You noticed I spoke up FOR the woman here....  

I was talking about the men that weren't nice to milee, not all men!

Yeah, some of us are secure in our masculinity and are not threatened by women's success.  I wonder if there's a correlation. 

[swamp]

I have no words of wisdom as I agree that some guys can be complete dicks when a woman beats them.  

Congrats on the win. 

[milee]

Nov 8, 2015 18:49:54 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Nov 8, 2015 18:40:53 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

I was talking about the men that weren't nice to milee, not all men!

Yeah, some of us are secure in our masculinity and are not threatened by women's success.  I wonder if there's a correlation. 

We recently invited a guy to sail with our team.  Something had to give because with only women, we were about 200 pounds too light to keep the boat upright in high winds.  He's a retired military pilot and a bit of a badass, but also quiet and secure in his masculinity.  The first few times he went out with the team, he was a little surprised that we didn't want him to do anything (he thought he'd be doing the hard, physical things on the boat like hoisting the spinnaker, etc) but act as moveable ballast and offer tactical advice.  Over time, he'd jokingly ask if he behaved if we'd let him touch anything.    But he's secure in who he is and is having a lot of fun sailing with us. 

We love him and are thrilled to have him as part of our team, but think we've traumatized him a little with some of our discussion topics.  And some of the road trips to distant regattas have proved to be very interesting adventures for all of us.  He's starting to see the advantages of being part of the women's team.  If only the other guys would be as secure as he is, they'd learn some of our valuable tips that only the girl sailors seem to have figured out - like the fact that beer takes up too much storage space on the boat, so it's best to just go with flasks of Scotch or flavored Vodka. 

[Pants]

Nov 8, 2015 19:43:34 GMT -5 milee said:

Nov 8, 2015 18:49:54 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Yeah, some of us are secure in our masculinity and are not threatened by women's success.  I wonder if there's a correlation. 

We recently invited a guy to sail with our team.  Something had to give because with only women, we were about 200 pounds too light to keep the boat upright in high winds.  He's a retired military pilot and a bit of a badass, but also quiet and secure in his masculinity.  The first few times he went out with the team, he was a little surprised that we didn't want him to do anything (he thought he'd be doing the hard, physical things on the boat like hoisting the spinnaker, etc) but act as moveable ballast and offer tactical advice.  Over time, he'd jokingly ask if he behaved if we'd let him touch anything.    But he's secure in who he is and is having a lot of fun sailing with us. 

We love him and are thrilled to have him as part of our team, but think we've traumatized him a little with some of our discussion topics.  And some of the road trips to distant regattas have proved to be very interesting adventures for all of us.  He's starting to see the advantages of being part of the women's team.  If only the other guys would be as secure as he is, they'd learn some of our valuable tips that only the girl sailors seem to have figured out - like the fact that beer takes up too much storage space on the boat, so it's best to just go with flasks of Scotch or flavored Vodka. 

see, you don't need a guy - just carry a keg.on the boat!!

[milee]

Nov 8, 2015 19:48:50 GMT -5 Pants said:

Nov 8, 2015 19:43:34 GMT -5 milee said:

see, you don't need a guy - just carry a keg.on the boat!!

If there was a way to do that, we would.   Although now that our guy is part of the inner circle, we wouldn't want to get rid of him.  He's wormed his way into our group and we're pretty loyal.

Boring sailing trivia - weight that can't be moved around the boat is bad weight and slows you down. The name of the game in racing is to cut out every spare ounce of weight, except for the weight that can be moved around the boat - like people.   You move the weight/people around the boat to increase speed depending on your angle to the wind and the heel (angle) of the boat off the water. If the weight can't be moved, it gets tossed overboard because it's slowing you down. You need a certain amount of moveable weight on the boat to balance against the power of the wind, which can blow the boat over if there's not enough ballast on the opposite side of the boat. Sailors have a somewhat joking disparaging term for extra people that have been invited on the boat only to serve as moveable ballast - they're called "rail meat"; refers to living meat that you have move from one side of the boat rail to the other depending on wind direction. For many boats, nonsailing guys and the wives/girlfriends of the sailors are brought on as "rail meat." For the first few months our guy sailed with us, we called him "rail meat", which was a pretty strong joke given that he's a top winning sailor/skipper of his own hotshot boat.  

I guess we hazed him a bit before we decided he was OK. 

[Pants]

Nov 8, 2015 19:57:34 GMT -5 milee said:

Nov 8, 2015 19:48:50 GMT -5 Pants said:

If there was a way to do that, we would.   Although now that our guy is part of the inner circle, we wouldn't want to get rid of him.  He's wormed his way into our group and we're pretty loyal.

Boring sailing trivia - weight that can't be moved around the boat is bad weight and slows you down. The name of the game in racing is to cut out every spare ounce of weight, except for the weight that can be moved around the boat - like people.   You move the weight/people around the boat to increase speed depending on your angle to the wind and the heel (angle) of the boat off the water. If the weight can't be moved, it gets tossed overboard because it's slowing you down. You need a certain amount of moveable weight on the boat to balance against the power of the wind, which can blow the boat over if there's not enough ballast on the opposite side of the boat. Sailors have a somewhat joking disparaging term for extra people that have been invited on the boat only to serve as moveable ballast - they're called "rail meat"; refers to living meat that you have move from one side of the boat rail to the other depending on wind direction. For many boats, nonsailing guys and the wives/girlfriends of the sailors are brought on as "rail meat." For the first few months our guy sailed with us, we called him "rail meat", which was a pretty strong joke given that he's a top winning sailor/skipper of his own hotshot boat.

Kegs roll!

[milee]

Nov 8, 2015 20:06:28 GMT -5 Pants said:

Nov 8, 2015 19:57:34 GMT -5 milee said:

If there was a way to do that, we would.   Although now that our guy is part of the inner circle, we wouldn't want to get rid of him.  He's wormed his way into our group and we're pretty loyal.

Boring sailing trivia - weight that can't be moved around the boat is bad weight and slows you down. The name of the game in racing is to cut out every spare ounce of weight, except for the weight that can be moved around the boat - like people.   You move the weight/people around the boat to increase speed depending on your angle to the wind and the heel (angle) of the boat off the water. If the weight can't be moved, it gets tossed overboard because it's slowing you down. You need a certain amount of moveable weight on the boat to balance against the power of the wind, which can blow the boat over if there's not enough ballast on the opposite side of the boat. Sailors have a somewhat joking disparaging term for extra people that have been invited on the boat only to serve as moveable ballast - they're called "rail meat"; refers to living meat that you have move from one side of the boat rail to the other depending on wind direction. For many boats, nonsailing guys and the wives/girlfriends of the sailors are brought on as "rail meat." For the first few months our guy sailed with us, we called him "rail meat", which was a pretty strong joke given that he's a top winning sailor/skipper of his own hotshot boat.

Kegs roll!

Yeah, but not fast enough. 

The type of boat we're on is very, very physically demanding; no time to roll anything.  Heck, we don't even have time to take a drink during the races, have to do that in between races.  Most of the guys are big and fit.  We spend most of the races leaping from side to side of the boat, pulling heavy lines as fast as we can and hooking our toes under a strap and then leaning backwards out over the water as far as we can to leverage our weight outside the boat. 

[milee]

Thinking more about it, but the physical rep of this boat is probably part of what's driving the reaction of the guys in the fleet.  Most of them are big, fit guys.  The boat is not only tough to sail technically, but does require a lot of strength and agility - that's part of why there aren't many women on these boats, not many women are strong enough to work the loads on the boat. We're not especially strong (although we do work out to be able to do our specific roles), but we've also figured out alternate ways to do some of the tasks and just accept that we may be slower at some things. 

I suspect they took a look at my crew (until we added our one guy, I was the largest at 5'3) and thought we were cute but not serious competition because there was no way we could physically handle the boat.  They may be viewing our win as the equivalent as if we had beat them at arm wrestling. 

[swamp]

Nov 8, 2015 20:22:09 GMT -5 milee said:

Thinking more about it, but the physical rep of this boat is probably part of what's driving the reaction of the guys in the fleet.  Most of them are big, fit guys.  The boat is not only tough to sail technically, but does require a lot of strength and agility - that's part of why there aren't many women on these boats, not many women are strong enough to work the loads on the boat. We're not especially strong (although we do work out to be able to do our specific roles), but we've also figured out alternate ways to do some of the tasks and just accept that we may be slower at some things. 

I suspect they took a look at my crew (until we added our one guy, I was the largest at 5'3) and thought we were cute but not serious competition because there was no way we could physically handle the boat.  They may be viewing our win as the equivalent as if we had beat them at arm wrestling. 

The stronger  guys get, generally the less agile they get.  If both are needed for sailing, the strength isn't that much of an advantage. 

[gooddecisions]

I'm not at all dismissing what you're saying, but a lot of guys are just sore losers. I wouldn't take it too personally.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Nov 8, 2015 20:54:30 GMT -5 gooddecisions said:

I'm not at all dismissing what you're saying, but a lot of guys are just sore losers. I wouldn't take it too personally.

I think this is an interesting point. 
Have their been occurrences when they've ignored a male winner who was new to the group?