Obama still going for death panels

[swamp]

Enough with the name calling. If you have a point, make it, otherwise, pipe down.

[Shirina]

If you write the way you do on the UK boards, Birdy, you won't last a day here. These boards are moderated, and the things you say elsewhere will not be tolerated ... at all. Just a friendly warning should you decide to stay here.

[marshabar1]

Hi Bird. Be good.


Hi Shirina. Fun4m here.

www.rightsidenews.com/2010122812459/editorial/us-opinion-and-editorial/death-panels-what-death-panels.html

[traelin0]

I made this clear before. If you guys want to beat each other over the heads with childish personal attacks, I don't care. But there will NOT be any defamatory racial slurs, attacks on one's family, or attacks on one's religious preference. Find somewhere else to do it.

Shirina, I modified your post to remove the racial slur originally posted by SR71.

traelin0/P&M Mod

[jkapp]

>>Beats me. Somebody else making the choice for you would be a death panel. EOL planning is simply discussing options. People like me are medical idiots and while we may say "Save me at all costs", we really have no idea of the consequences of that choice. Really, would you want to be "saved" if you were in a vegetative state for the rest of your life? Personally, I wouldn't want that. Discussion of issues like this make sense IMHO.<<

But why does insurance have to pay for it? Why can't people ever PAY for anything? Part of the reason health care and health insurance are so expensive is because everyone seems to want EVERYTHING yet pay for NOTHING.

These EOL meetings have nothing to do with the person's health (they are not being treated for anything, they are having a hypothetical discussion of "what ifs") so health insurance should not pay for it.

[MN-Investor]

"These EOL meetings have nothing to do with the person's health (they are not being treated for anything, they are having a hypothetical discussion of "what ifs") so health insurance should not pay for it."

I wholeheartedly disagree with you. Future treatment based on a person's current health is being discussed. For example, my 88-year old mother has severe osteoporosis. When she went into a nursing home, she was asked if she wanted to be resuscitated if necessary. She said sure. My brother, who is a physician, heard about this later and was appalled. If a physician had been present, they would have explained to Mom that CPR would most certainly break almost every one of her ribs because of her osteoporosis. She would end up bedridden and in severe pain. Mom would be horrified at this prognosis. But because a doctor was not present, she wasn't aware of the health ramifications of her resuscitate decision. Doctors need to be involved in EOL decisions because they understand and can explain all the relevant health issues.

[floridayankee]

Dec 28, 2010 13:23:33 GMT -5 jkapp said:

But why does insurance have to pay for it? Why can't people ever PAY for anything? Part of the reason health care and health insurance are so expensive is because everyone seems to want EVERYTHING yet pay for NOTHING.

I thought we were talking about EOL counseling for Obamacare, not insurance companies?

[jkapp]

Dec 28, 2010 14:12:36 GMT -5 floridayankee said:

Dec 28, 2010 13:23:33 GMT -5 jkapp said:

But why does insurance have to pay for it? Why can't people ever PAY for anything? Part of the reason health care and health insurance are so expensive is because everyone seems to want EVERYTHING yet pay for NOTHING.

I thought we were talking about EOL counseling for Obamacare, not insurance companies?

The original article is including these meetings in with medicare insurance. So the insurance pays for these meetings for future "what if" scenarios. This does not fall into health care coverage, IMO, and should NOT be paid for by insurance. If you want to take part in an EOL discussion, then fine...but pay for it out of pocket.

Again, why do people never want to pay ANYTHING when it comes to doctors, health care, etc? And we wonder why insurance is so gd expensive???

[floridayankee]

Dec 28, 2010 15:04:23 GMT -5 jkapp said:

The original article is including these meetings in with medicare insurance.

Correct...the directive is for medicare...not private insurance carriers....yet anyway.

Again, why do people never want to pay ANYTHING when it comes to doctors, health care, etc? And we wonder why insurance is so gd expensive???

Because medical care is a right....according to the left anyway.

[warsaw (banned)]

Health costs doubled just under Bush. Every other modern country has universal health care, and they get better results than us at 30-60% of our costs. You are sorely misled by health insurers/Fox/Rush/bought off Pubs...Period.
ER care, bankruptcies, cutoffs and blackballs are a paradise for insurers and lawyers only. IMHO of course.

[jkapp]

Dec 28, 2010 16:24:54 GMT -5 warsaw (banned) said:

Health costs doubled just under Bush. Every other modern country has universal health care, and they get better results than us any 30-60% of our costs. You are sorely misled by health insurers/Fox/Rush/bought off Pubs...Period.
ER care, bankruptcies, cutoffs and blackballs are a paradise for insurers and lawyers only. IMHO of course.

And how many of these other countries have massive cultural traits such as obesity? How many of these other countries have millions of illegal immigrants crowding their ERs? How many of these other countries have excessive drug abuse problems among a large section of the populace? How many of these other countries make large numbers of new medical research breakthroughs, treatments, and equipment? How many of these countries cover the costs of underpayments for pharmaceuticals from other countries?

It seems if these other countries would put their "fair share" of such costs on the table then our own costs could go down...of course that would mean their own costs would skyrocket and kill their socialist utopian fantasies.

[warsaw (banned)]

ANOTHER Canard, repeated ad nauseum...and yes Bush presided over this catastrophe, and more mortgage problems are still coming...[/quote]
Typical liberal response....it's all Bush's and fox news's fault. The 8% thing were words from Obama's own mouth. If you'd step off the liberal talking points site for a moment, you would know that.
[/quote]

Yeah, except Obama said 8% in Sept. or something, NOBODY realized how bad the Bush economy really was (Bush mentioned there'd been a recession since January about the same time!!!), so your contention is another totally disengenuous LIE from Rush/Fox/right wing bloggers . And our corporate media is no help either. Truth is now "far left" pffft!

[magichat]

Florida you better give up, obviously Warsaw is too smart for us all, when confronted with words from the Presidents mouth it still wasn't his fault.

[deziloooooo]

#60 and #61, {Birdy? who is that, went back to see who was mouthing off and missed it }
"you say potato, I say potato (text doesn't do that saying justice)....Hospitals are still legally required to treat regardless of ability to pay so we still pay one way or another"
They are required to stabilize you, not all the procedures for a better way of life that are options. For example, anew heart transplant if you don't have coverage, a new hip to allow you to walk better, and so many other procedures. The question that has to be asked is as one ages, as one medical condition deteriorates, so many times as one ages , while there may be one main thing wrong, because of age, past treatments , there are also almost as serious other things wrong and it gets to the point of while a procedure ure Can be done, does it make sense to go for ward, if there is not that much hope for a extended quality of life , due to age of patient and their over all condition and should the government be saddled / responsible with that expense if it means there is less left for the general healthy public....and th real prognoses of recovery and a good form of life is just not there. Some are saying thst if a patient reaches for those extra life saving possibilities, then it's their responsibility from the financial side. That to me is not a "death panel"

[warsaw (banned)]

JKapp, you seem to just love getting reemed by our health industry. It is so far past time to rein them in it's RIDICULOUS. imho

[warsaw (banned)]

What we saw from the administration in January was a projection, not a promise. And it was a projection that came with heavy disclaimers.

"It should be understood that all of the estimates presented in this memo are subject to significant margins of error," the report states. "There is the more fundamental uncertainty that comes with any estimate of the effects of a program. Our estimates of economic relationships and rules of thumb are derived from historical experience and so will not apply exactly in any given episode. Furthermore, the uncertainty is surely higher than normal now because the current recession is unusual both in its fundamental causes and its severity."

There's also a footnote that goes along with the chart that states: "Forecasts of the unemployment rate without the recovery plan vary substantially. Some private forecasters anticipate unemployment rates as high as 11% in the absence of action."

That sure doesn't sound like a full-fledged promise to us.

We think it's a big stretch to call an economic projection a "promise." The administration never characterized it that way and included plenty of disclaimers saying the predictions had "significant margins of error" and a higher degree of uncertainty due to a recession that is "unusual both in its fundamental causes and its severity." And so we rule the statement by Cantor — and other Republicans who have said the same thing — Barely True.

And when Politifact says barely true, they mean lie. I don't think dittoheads understand anything longer than a bumpersticker anyway.

[jkapp]

Dec 28, 2010 16:52:33 GMT -5 warsaw (banned) said:

JKapp, you seem to just love getting reemed by our health industry. It is so far past time to rein them in it's RIDICULOUS. imho

Only if you don't understand it is our government doing most of the reeming...it's medicare and medicaid that underpay for procedures which causes the cost on private insurance to rise, it's government that gives absolutely zero protections to doctors and hospitals from frivalous lawsuits (why does regulation only go one way?)...

Looking to government to solve problems caused by government seems to be a ridiculous measure to take. I'm all for regulating insurance so they cannot drop anyone for making a claim, I'm all for regulating insurance to cover pre-existing conditions...but where is the regulation against frivalous lawsuits? Where is the regulation in over-prescribing drugs to patients that demand getting something for going to the doctor? Where are the regulations creating a teired premium wherein those that use more insurance/live less healthy lives should pay more in premiums and those that use less insurance/live healthier lives get a break on their premiums (like every other insurance out there)?

Nothing the government has done in Obamacare reduces costs on anyone, nor does it give any way to reduce costs going forward - it doesn't even give any incentives for such things. Single payer solves none of these issues either, and escalates the money lost to waste, fraud, and abuse among government-run programs (medicare loses over $60 BILLION a year in such waste and fraud - over ten times more than any profits private insurers bring in).

Government is a bigger problem in our health industry than all other players combined...the health industry is trying to stay afloat DESPITE government incompetence and mismanagement, and is failiing as we have seen.

But keep thinking government is the answer to all ills...but when your freedoms are gone and the government is telling you it's time to die, I don't want to hear you complain

[warsaw (banned)]

Sure. Actually Health Reform has lots of things to bring down costs: low cost clinics, 15-20% limit on non medical spending (now at 27%), competitive and transparent insurance exchanges, etc etc and much more to come. Dittoheads will never get the story from Pubs/Fox/Rush....
What happened to Pubs wanting a national exchange? What a joke.Just a stalling tactic and fodder for the dupes....

[Shirina]

Because medical care is a right....according to the left anyway

Yes, it should be a right. We're not talking about big screen televisions or a nice house. We're talking about people's lives, or even worse, people living in pain simply because they did lower paying jobs no one else would do. Conservatives always talk about the government deciding who lives or dies ... like this quote:

but when your freedoms are gone and the government is telling you it's time to die, I don't want to hear you complain

But insurance companies or financial hardship causing people to die is no big deal, I assume. Social Darwinism at its best (and worst).

of course that would mean their own costs would skyrocket and kill their socialist utopian fantasies.

This comment sounds suspiciously like envy. How dare they have a "socialist utopia" when we don't! So let's destroy it! <insert supervillain laugh here>

[Shirina]

Hi Shirina. Fun4m here.

Greetings Marsha/Fun. Perhaps we can start anew over here.

[floridayankee]

Dec 28, 2010 16:50:22 GMT -5 @magichat said:

Florida you better give up, obviously Warsaw is too smart for us all, when confronted with words from the Presidents mouth it still wasn't his fault.

Apparently.

[floridayankee]

Dec 28, 2010 17:12:23 GMT -5 jkapp said:

But keep thinking government is the answer to all ills...but when your freedoms are gone and the government is telling you it's time to die, I don't want to hear you complain

I also don't want to hear the whining when the thier utopian bigger government is voted out and handed over to the other party.

[floridayankee]

Dec 28, 2010 18:43:20 GMT -5 warsaw (banned) said:

Sure. Actually Health Reform has lots of things to bring down costs: low cost clinics, 15-20% limit on non medical spending (now at 27%), competitive and transparent insurance exchanges, etc etc and much more to come. Dittoheads will never get the story from Pubs/Fox/Rush....
What happened to Pubs wanting a national exchange? What a joke.Just a stalling tactic and fodder for the dupes....

Dittoheads? The ultimate liberal argument is childish name calling. Grow up and troll somewhere else.

[floridayankee]

Dec 28, 2010 21:51:31 GMT -5 Shirina said:

Yes, it should be a right.

Then call a constitutional convention and make it one. Just because you feel it should be a right doesn't make it one.

We're not talking about big screen televisions or a nice house. We're talking about people's lives, or even worse, people living in pain simply because they did lower paying jobs no one else would do.

As I've said many times before...I've been there I actually had to open my walet <gasp> and pay cash. Guess what...most Dr's I've been to will work out payment plans and/or discounts for cash paying patients without insurance. It's not handed to you though...you have to work 'em for it.

But insurance companies or financial hardship causing people to die is no big deal, I assume. Social Darwinism at its best (and worst).

We're back to the "dying in the streets" argument again?

[reformeddaytrader]

Obama still going for death panels (Read 546 times)



How about FEMA Camps, Concrete Cowboys and a Hit List??? just asking...

[ugonow]

Dittoheads? The ultimate liberal argument is childish name calling. Grow up and troll somewhere else.


To be fair,I feel I should point out this is a term Rush fans have given themselves.Rush even greets his callers with the term.It started years ago when callers called in,and wished Rush blessings,the next caller would say ditto. He started callling them Ditoheads,and it stuck.The term is now respectfuly used to conotate his large legion of fans.

[reformeddaytrader]

Dec 28, 2010 11:49:03 GMT -5 swamp said:

Enough with the name calling. If you have a point, make it, otherwise, pipe down.

Ok sorry about that....got carried away again...just saying

Was it something I said i.e Sir instead of Ma'am again but you must admit with gender undisclosed what is an old Jarhead to do.....just saying again in case you missed the first one..

[floridayankee]

Dec 29, 2010 9:28:37 GMT -5 ugonow said:

To be fair,I feel I should point out this is a term Rush fans have given themselves.Rush even greets his callers with the term.It started years ago when callers called in,and wished Rush blessings,the next caller would say ditto. He started callling them Ditoheads,and it stuck.The term is now respectfuly used to conotate his large legion of fans. [/quote]
Really?  I did not know that.  Since, I'm not afraid to admit when I'm wrong, I offer my apologies to warsaw for thinking he was acting childish and trolling.

But, It goes to show just how often this conservative listens to Rush, eh?  I guess the libs spend more time worrying about rush and fox news than I do if they are tossing the term around.


[ugonow]

I guess the libs spend more time worrying about rush and fox news than I do if they are tossing the term around.

I think even libs must be tuning in on old Rush. His show is the most popular on the radio. He tells it like it is.

[floridayankee]

Dec 29, 2010 10:34:58 GMT -5 ugonow said:

I think even libs must be tuning in on old Rush. His show is the most popular on the radio. He tells it like it is.

I listened to, I believe, Glenn Beck at lunch on sirius one time. Granted, I only got to listen to about 30 minutes of the show before I got back to work, I found it disorganized and pretty much pointless babble. I felt like I was listening to Bubba the Love Sponge / Howard Stern or something like that.

But, I'm back to regular old terrestrial radio for the commutes again since I haven't moved the radio to the truck yet.