Obama still going for death panels

[mudflap81]

Only taxpayers can afford to give free insurance to former employees nowdays.

I don't know if we can afford it, but we certainly do it. Pensions and health insurance for cops, firefighters, and the military is something I'm happy to spend tax money on.

[mudflap81]

[/quote] Believe it or not, I agree with you. I'm fiscally conservative, socially liberterian. I don't give a crap what you or anyone else does, I just don't want to pay for it. [/quote]

AMEN

edit: P.S. How many posts do I need to make to get promoted from "new member?" Nevermind, found it

[deziloooooo]

My son is a upper middle management exec in one of the largest health insurance companies in the country..his job, a major part Of , is in saving dollars. expenses. He says there is no way the public Will look for saving as the private, {I agree}, that is what he gets paid very well for, constant pressure of and he also says one of the big expenses is government dictated edicts that are put on the Industry{Insurance} which benefit few, but add tremendous costs, which naturally indirectly or directly, passed on to consumers. Example, California, mandated by their Legislature, all written explanations into so many languages, way beyond just Spanish which makes sense to me but just son many, that they can tell by how often called fr are rarely used , but the cost of are very high to comply,and that was just one of so many. each State has their own little things they want, and so many are different, and if you don't comply, then you can't write insurance in those States.

[Tennesseer]

Thanks Ugonow. Much appreciated.

Use the hyperlink, quote or insert image funcition on the reply screen. You need to put your link, quote or picture in between the two brackets areas.

[ugonow]

Thanks,I am slowly learning.Not too proficient on these things.Appreciate the help.

[ugonow]

He says there is no way the public Will look for saving as the private, {I agree}, that is what he gets paid very well for.

The private sector looks to be more efficient and cost concience.The goverent does it by rationing healthcare.

[floridayankee]

Dec 27, 2010 10:41:28 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Dec 27, 2010 10:39:53 GMT -5 floridayankee said:

Like Romneycare...I still believe this should be a state issue to take care of their poor/elderly citizens, not federal.

so when Romney (R) institutes mandatory health insurance, it's good, but when Obama (D) does it, it's the most evil thing anyone could ever do. I don't get it.

I never said it was a good thing...but it's within the state's rights. I believe that the SCOTUS will rule that is not within the Feds rights.

he also says one of the big expenses is government dictated edicts that are put on the Industry{Insurance} which benefit few, but add tremendous costs, which naturally indirectly or directly, passed on to consumers.

Wouldn't this be a major argument for less government involvement in the industry? Why do those on the left look for government to reduce costs in the health care industry when they play a major role in the increased costs?

[warsaw (banned)]

Such is the wonder of "feel good" social programming. If care is denied by the hospital, the left is crying about "old people dying in the streets". If care is denied by the government, the right is crying about "old people dying in the streets".

Except it's the bought off Pubs who lie about the situation...

Adding a counsellor to the family and the doctors is hardly a death panel...another bought off pub fear mongering lie, imho.

[floridayankee]

Dec 27, 2010 13:51:30 GMT -5 warsaw (banned) said:

Except it's the bought off Pubs who lie about the situation...

Yes...it's all the "pubs" fault.

Take off your blinders warsaw. Both sides dramatize and misrepresent way to much. Hardcore party loyal sheeple refuse to look at the flaws in their own party and only make the problem worse with constant regurgitation of party line talking points.

Adding a counsellor to the family and the doctors is hardly a death panel

I agree. But, adding counselor sessions will add costs to a system with the goal to decrease costs....unless some are actually "talked out" of costly, long term care which likely won't be quantifiable.

[swamp]

"Take off your blinders warsaw. Both sides dramatize and misrepresent way to much. Hardcore party loyal sheeple refuse to look at the flaws in their own party and only make the problem worse with constant regurgitation of party line talking points"


I think I <3 you!

[deziloooooo]

Gates remarks on the cost, at a certain point the government no longer pays, wasn't saying the procedure should never be done, just at a certain point , the individual is responsible for the cost..especially in end of life scenarios.
Problem is when does that come into play..
O live in a over 55 community so the final passing is more common here. My 1st floor neighbor was diagnosesd with a cancer, had the procedure, plus the chemo, strin of treatment had a stroke, heart problems cancer is gone and with rehab , wife is a RN staying home, he is coming back very well, still weak, but every day, out walking, can speak a bit, and is not ready to go.. age, I would say young, late 60's..
I am thinking the end of government help financial, true end of life, advanced age, all the other conditions that might be present..I don't have a answer actually, but I don't call it "Death Panels', that was Palins shtick... possible a extra gov't insurence program to buy into for those whio want that , but that opens up a can of worms.
In the future..I believe the topic will be visited..
The problem is, just came to me, those who will be deciding this, are those who are not going to be affected by this though their family members might. The ones deciding it will be well covered and for the majority, well able to afford the extra cost if the government coverage is gone.

[floridayankee]

Dec 27, 2010 14:09:35 GMT -5 deziloooooo said:

Gates remarks on the cost, at a certain point the government no longer pays, wasn't saying the procedure should never be done, just at a certain point , the individual is responsible for the cost..especially in end of life scenarios.

you say potato, I say potato (text doesn't do that saying justice)....Hospitals are still legally required to treat regardless of ability to pay so we still pay one way or another.

[floridayankee]

Dec 27, 2010 14:08:01 GMT -5 swamp said:

I think I <3 you!

I'll warn ya swamp...I'm a real prick. Ask my wife if you don't believe me.

But, at least I'm a prick with principles that I'm willing to stand up for!

... possible a extra gov't insurence program to buy into for those whio want that , but that opens up a can of worms.

I'd say...We're already $13+ trillion in debt...that's a mighty big can of worms.

[warsaw (banned)]

Sure- so give me examples of Dem lies- Almost everything Rich Faux Pubs come out with are lies- see "Reid voted for Viagra for molesters" Death Panels, Ground zero mosque, gov't takeover!, Marxism!!! pfffft! and end of life counsellors are proved to save huge amounts....ay caramba , what is the % spent in the last few weeks of life, 60% of LIFETIME costs or something, when the patient has usually had it...lol?

[deziloooooo]

Agree and even if it was a extra insurance policy that was paid for as a personal option...can of worms, still those who could afford those procedures not for all, though hip replacement some one in their 80", experimental treatment as a last chance, some one up there in age and with other normal problems.. idea is being able to afford coverage for the great majority...the cost of the last , end of life time, is enormous..can we afford it, especially when prognosis is so limited??

[floridayankee]

Dec 27, 2010 15:07:31 GMT -5 warsaw (banned) said:

Sure- so give me examples of Dem lies-

You need me to find examples?? Are you kidding me? This entire first two years of the Obama administration has been spent pushing legislation as fast as possible based on some false sense of urgency. But, for starters, how 'bout "it's all Bush's fault".

How about all the jobs "saved or created" with the stimulus (in which "jobs saved" is not measurable unless every employer in the country calls the White House to give them numbers) in congressional districts that don't exist.

How 'bout "without unemployment benefit extensions / health care reform (pick one...or both) people will be dying in the streets".

How 'bout "unemployment will not go above 8% if stimulus is passed".

How 'bout the whole idea that this country cannot seal it's borders (more both parties than just dems).

How about "you must be a racist" every time somebody dared disagree with Obama policy.

Do you need more?

To think that either major political party is above "stretching the truth" to fit their agenda is laughable. Wait for 2012 to listen to the campaign ad spins every time a congressman or senator compromises on an issue or two to get some sort of legislation passed.

Wake up people...you're being played.

60% of LIFETIME costs or something, when the patient has usually had it...lol?

Right, wrong or indifferent, it wouldn't have cost the government a damned thing if they would have stayed out of health care in the first place.
They created the issue...now we all have to live with it.

[Shirina]

Right, wrong or indifferent, it wouldn't have cost the government a damned thing if they would have stayed out of health care in the first place.

Health care needs fixing. Period. It needs to be less expensive and more accessible to everyone, not just those who can afford it. We seem to have plenty of money for everything else including lots of money for foreign wars and disaster relief in distant nations, but when it comes down to providing for our own citizens, for some unfathomable reason, our culture simply doesn't allow it.

Something has to rein in the medical behemoth or an ever increasing number of Americans will be priced out of health care completely. If not the government, then who? Because I don't believe for a moment that the medical industry in all its forms is going to police itself. If it had an inclination to do so, we would not be in this situation to begin with.

[Deleted]

From what I have heard, and I am behind things right now, although I fall on the conservative side of the middle, this was all put in place in the Bush administration. Is this all more hype media bullcrap, or what?? If it is all about people planning end of life care-- who cares?? Not me. My Mom died as she wished because she had a living will that caused us to cut the machines off after she had a massive stroke. We should all have as much control.
My main concern with this would be about people that are alone, mentally ill, very poor, etc. Who would make those choices for them?? Who decides if they die, and when they die? Also-- someone mentioned the pay-off included to the doctors. I need to check in to this. Should not be a huge thing, I would not think.
Sorry, people that know me, I'm just not real excited about this. And, hello to you all. I don't know how to use this forum, how to copy/paste, and may be too lazy to learn.

[warsaw (banned)]

Hey Krickett!! Happy New Year!! And me neither!

[warsaw (banned)]

And Yankee, that is all opinion or Faux spin. BTW, the 8% thing- had already gone over 8% before he got in...ANOTHER Canard, repeated ad nauseum...and yes Bush presided over this catastrophe, and more mortgage problems are still coming...

[warsaw (banned)]

and health costs DOUBLED just under Bush...

[Deleted]

UUHHHHH-- I heard on FOX news that this started under Bush... just for the FOX news bashers.
(smiley face)
I hate flipping new places-- no idea how to work them!

[deziloooooo]

"This entire first two years of the Obama administration has been spent pushing legislation as fast as possible based on some false sense of urgency. "
The experts said it was necessary, both sides, Tarp , started ubnder bush , stimulus under the Dems and Obama... i'll go with the experts.

"How about all the jobs "saved or created" with the stimulus (in which "jobs saved" is not measurable unless every employer in the country calls the White House to give them numbers) in congressional districts that don't exist."
There were jobs saved in the 100's of thousands, over 100,000 in Florida alone, important ones, teachers, law enforcement..those were already gonme, hired back and other statres too, just do a google , your state, let us know what you get.

"How 'bout "without unemployment benefit extensions / health care reform (pick one...or both) people will be dying in the streets"."
Possibl some but forget the dying , there are families, kids, no money coming in, no fault of the parents who were woking, laid off, no jobs to be had.

"How 'bout "unemployment will not go above 8% if stimulus is passed"."
A surprise there , the old model they used to meassure was off, s*** haoppens..the times were worse then even the experts thought.

"How 'bout the whole idea that this country cannot seal it's borders (more both parties than just dems)."
That's going to be a tough one, mmore people on the border..believe many Mexicans and laten Americans have gone back home..think I saw posted over 4 million, isn't that correct, no jobs here, stronger enforcement many found better to go home. The one plan for the younger ones, schooling/miliary was turned down, not saying it was a good bill, not that amilier with it, some brought up problems with it like all the kids would then apply to colleges. I wonder, all of a sudden they haven't payed atention in public school all of a sudden they are now going to college??Doesn't compute to me. Those who go int the military there is a way for thenm to get citizenship now after they have servd some time.
you must be a racist" every time somebody dared disagree with Obama policy.

Do you need more?

"To think that either major political party is above "stretching the truth" to fit their agenda is laughable. Wait for 2012 to listen to the campaign ad spins every time a congressman or senator compromises on an issue or two to get some sort of legislation passed."
Agree there with you


"

60% of LIFETIME costs or something, when the patient has usually had it...lol?

"
That's what we are discussing here
"Right, wrong or indifferent, it wouldn't have cost the government a damned thing if they would have stayed out of health care in the first place.
They created the issue...now we all have to live with it.[/quote]"
The issue was already with us, the costs were climbing, something had to be done , the problem addressed, it was addressed, a new policy..now we see how it works..still a work in progress.

[Deleted]

Happy New Year to you, WAR!!!! I am happy to see you again. Now-- back to the ..... battle... is it?? Not much going on here... I am going to turn my radio on and get back in the swing of things!! LOL!!!!!

[warsaw (banned)]

Health Reform will save money- get people OFF Welfare to get medicaid, OFF taxpayer paid incredibly expensive ER care, OFF 500,000 bankruptcies a year, and btw OFF 40,000 a year people dying because of no health care. "High costs, death panels, gov't takeover, huge costs, lose your doctor" are ALL bought Pub/Fox propaganda. IMOHO of course.

[floridayankee]

Dec 27, 2010 15:51:35 GMT -5 Shirina said:

Right, wrong or indifferent, it wouldn't have cost the government a damned thing if they would have stayed out of health care in the first place.

Health care needs fixing. Period. It needs to be less expensive and more accessible to everyone, not just those who can afford it. We seem to have plenty of money for everything else including lots of money for foreign wars and disaster relief in distant nations, but when it comes down to providing for our own citizens, for some unfathomable reason, our culture simply doesn't allow it.

I'll say it again...we're $13 trillion...that's trillion with a T....in debt. We can't afford any of it. We're pissing away our children's future because we're too weak to say enough is enough.

There was a thread on the old boards ripping baby boomers for the problems we face today. The premise was that they had the power of the polls to make changes and reverse the trend of ever increasing national debt. Personally, I'd rather not see my (future) grandkids posting the same thing 30 - 40 years from now blaming problems on our generation.

Our feel good, "gotta' have it all" spending spree is no different than the fat kid that can't turn down the McDonalds Happy Meal. It's way past time to tighten out belts and go on a serious diet.

[floridayankee]

Dec 27, 2010 17:05:42 GMT -5 warsaw (banned) said:

And Yankee, that is all opinion or Faux spin. BTW, the 8% thing- had already gone over 8% before he got in...ANOTHER Canard, repeated ad nauseum...and yes Bush presided over this catastrophe, and more mortgage problems are still coming...

Typical liberal response....it's all Bush's and fox news's fault. The 8% thing were words from Obama's own mouth. If you'd step off the liberal talking points site for a moment, you would know that.

BTW, I don't watch faux or whatever else you want to call it other than the morning news / weather / sports report. I prefer to find and read my own news thank you.

[floridayankee]

Dec 27, 2010 17:14:48 GMT -5 deziloooooo said:

"This entire first two years of the Obama administration has been spent pushing legislation as fast as possible based on some false sense of urgency. "
The experts said it was necessary, both sides, Tarp , started ubnder bush , stimulus under the Dems and Obama... i'll go with the experts.

These so called experts are a bunch of appointed special interest ex-lobbyists that work for the very people that appointed them.

There were jobs saved in the 100's of thousands, over 100,000 in Florida alone, important ones, teachers, law enforcement..those were already gonme, hired back and other statres too, just do a google , your state, let us know what you get.

perhaps...but they "saved" thousands of jobs in districts that don't even exist too. If that doesn't cause you to question their numbers, they have you...hook, line and sinker.

Possibl some but forget the dying , there are families, kids, no money coming in, no fault of the parents who were woking, laid off, no jobs to be had.

No need to preach to me...Unfortunately , I already have real life experience (or fortunately because the real life experience gained is invaluable). In Y2K, I was there....over a year with no unemployment extensions what so ever. Personally, I did everything possible to improve my own situation. Relying on networks of friends, family, charities, whatever work I could find, etc, I survived just fine....all without taking one dime of additional government unemployment or welfare. Sure it was tough losing everything...going from a six figure net worth to everything you own in the back of a pickup. In fact it sucked...big time. Life works that way some times. You pick yourself up, dust yourself off and figure out your next step. Is there no drive or ambition left in this country any more? Do we all just sit around wondering who is going to take care of us when we're down on our luck?

The issue was already with us, the costs were climbing, something had to be done , the problem addressed, it was addressed, a new policy..now we see how it works..still a work in progress.

The garbage lovingly called Obamacare does absolutely nothing to address the issues of rising health care costs. You, yourself mentioned a relative that told of the huge costs added by the heavy hand of government. Think about that for a minute...Do you really expect more regulation and heavier burdens to decrease costs?
;D
Yeah...that'll work just fine......

[ugonow]

I say we deregulate the industry,give them some slack and watch prices drop like a rock.

[ugonow]

I think McCain/Palins plan to get employers and the government out of the equation was a good one. Give tax payers a credit to help buy their own coverage,take away incentives to companies to provide benefits,and tax employee benefits as income. It is a win win. It puts the individual in charge of his own care,and gets government and coporate influence out of it while helping lower the deficit.