grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Oct 15, 2015 10:55:28 GMT -5
Who told you that, the NRA? Sounds like their spin. Reason.com often says that violence is at an all time low. Not Reason.com but an interview in Scientific American. Are you saying that the world is not the safest in history? It is my understanding that the world, while it still has lots of problems, is the safest it ever has been and more people are living outside of poverty then ever before. I have read that many time at lots of places. I did not know what words to search for, -------- is a pretty good googler, maybe he will post something, not that I am asking for him to. eta: or were you refuting that there are not the most guns ever now? I just guessed at that, but think it is probably correct. I am not really surprised that on a global level - violence is lower overall than at any point in history. Parts of the globe are still barely what I would consider industrialized. However, what I would be more interested in, is violence and gun deaths in the US over the last hundred years. Also when you say "more guns than ever" are you talking total actual number, or per capita? I'm just not sure statistics about global violence are relevant to a discussion about gun violence in the US.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 15, 2015 11:21:30 GMT -5
A couple of people were fired, But because of their actions more than 300 people died. Let compare that with a gun shop that "MAY" have sold a gun to a straw buyer under less than perfect conditions, You know helped with filling the form.That happens a thousand time a day when people help fill out forms for the government free phone program or liberal voter registration.
So one act results in a $6,000,000 judgement, Over 300 acts that resulted in death and a unplanned early retirement.
Lots of justice served here Wisconsin gun shop ordered to pay nearly $6 million to injured police officers
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2015 11:24:08 GMT -5
A couple of people were fired, But because of their actions more than 300 people died. Let compare that with a gun shop that "MAY" have sold a gun to a straw buyer under less than perfect conditions, You know helped with filling the form.That happens a thousand time a day when people help fill out forms for the government free phone program or liberal voter registration.
So one act results in a $6,000,000 judgement, Over 300 acts that resulted in death and a unplanned early retirement.
Lots of justice served here Wisconsin gun shop ordered to pay nearly $6 million to injured police officersCEO pay = $20,000/hr Human life = $20,000
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 12:12:58 GMT -5
More kill zones- more death. Meh. Are you naïve enough to believe that removing one type of killing tool will change mans behavior ? You know what? I don't care any more. Everyone just shoot everyone else and be done with it. You care, or the OP wouldn't exist on this thread. Why do you think I want to shoot anyone ? That's applying collective guilt to gun owners. That is like applying collective guilt for spoon owners because we have a growing overweight problem in this country.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 15, 2015 12:21:30 GMT -5
If guns are no more efficient or effective at killing than other tools, why are gun owners so determined to keep them? You can hunt just as well with a hammer or box-cutter, right?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 12:24:45 GMT -5
More kill zones- more death. Meh. Are you naïve enough to believe that removing one type of killing tool will change mans behavior ? you are kidding, right? if i don't have a wrench to tighten a bolt, a pair of pliers will be FAR more cumbersome (if it can even be DONE). I never kid about killing people. I had a working lifetime of designing and building things to do just that. Bombing is way cheaper and easier to kill large groups of people than guns. Do you really want to start down that road like how it happens other countries, while disarming the law abiding citizens ? It's still a human problem (the killing) not a hardware problem. I don't agree with using the emotional aspect of tragedies to exploit a shortsighted utopian goal.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 12:26:02 GMT -5
If guns are no more efficient or effective at killing than other tools, why are gun owners so determined to keep them? You can hunt just as well with a hammer or box-cutter, right? I wasn't talking about hunting.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 15, 2015 12:26:38 GMT -5
You know what? I don't care any more. Everyone just shoot everyone else and be done with it. You care, or the OP wouldn't exist on this thread. Why do you think I want to shoot anyone ? That's applying collective guilt to gun owners. That is like applying collective guilt for spoon owners because we have a growing overweight problem in this country. I cared October 1st when I started this thread. As of October 14th, I no longer care. ETA: Spoons were/are not designed to make people overweight. Firearms were designed to put a hole through something beside a paper target.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2015 12:30:21 GMT -5
you are kidding, right? if i don't have a wrench to tighten a bolt, a pair of pliers will be FAR more cumbersome (if it can even be DONE). I never kid about killing people. I had a working lifetime of designing and building things to do just that. Bombing is way cheaper and easier to kill large groups of people than guns. Do you really want to start down that road like how it happens other countries, while disarming the law abiding citizens ? It's still a human problem (the killing) not a hardware problem. I don't agree with using the emotional aspect of tragedies to exploit a shortsighted utopian goal. well, you have to be joking about that question. if i don't have an assault rifle, and i want to kill 50 people, i am doing it with a bomb. if i don't have a bomb, i am not doing it. it is really that simple. you either have the tool, or you don't. but to say your behavior would be the same whether you had it or not is silly. edit: if you are talking about suicide bombings, they have nothing to do with gun control. NOTHING. weapons are readily available in most of the countries where these things happen. it is way more complicated and subtle than "tools". it is psych ops.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 15, 2015 12:31:44 GMT -5
If guns are no more efficient or effective at killing than other tools, why are gun owners so determined to keep them? You can hunt just as well with a hammer or box-cutter, right? I wasn't talking about hunting. OK, let's talk about mass shootings. Do you think the Sandy Hook shooter would have been able to kill 26 people in 5 minutes if armed only with a knife, crossbow, box-cutter, etc.? Without someone tackling him to take him down? I don't. Removing the tool (from those who have indicated an inability to responsibly handle it) may not change a killer's innate desire to kill, but it can at least mitigate the collateral damage.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 12:35:59 GMT -5
You care, or the OP wouldn't exist on this thread. Why do you think I want to shoot anyone ? That's applying collective guilt to gun owners. That is like applying collective guilt for spoon owners because we have a growing overweight problem in this country. I cared October 1st when I started this thread. As of October 14th, I no longer care. Well, I still care. I hate to see innocent people killed by what I see as bad government policy. If a person doesn't wish to be armed it should be his/hers own choice. Forcing everyone to be defenseless in any size area has never worked.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 12:45:47 GMT -5
I never kid about killing people. I had a working lifetime of designing and building things to do just that. Bombing is way cheaper and easier to kill large groups of people than guns. Do you really want to start down that road like how it happens other countries, while disarming the law abiding citizens ? It's still a human problem (the killing) not a hardware problem. I don't agree with using the emotional aspect of tragedies to exploit a shortsighted utopian goal. well, you have to be joking about that question. if i don't have an assault rifle, and i want to kill 50 people, i am doing it with a bomb. if i don't have a bomb, i am not doing it. it is really that simple. you either have the tool, or you don't. but to say your behavior would be the same whether you had it or not is silly. edit: if you are talking about suicide bombings, they have nothing to do with gun control. NOTHING. weapons are readily available in most of the countries where these things happen. it is way more complicated and subtle than "tools". it is psych ops. You are the same person who thought that the information intake of an insane person was the same as a normal in a different gun thread, and yes I pointed out that error to you then also. Using your judgment on behavior and it's silliness in any situation isn't carrying your argument today.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 12:53:20 GMT -5
I wasn't talking about hunting. OK, let's talk about mass shootings. Do you think the Sandy Hook shooter would have been able to kill 26 people in 5 minutes if armed only with a knife, crossbow, box-cutter, etc.? Without someone tackling him to take him down? I don't. Removing the tool (from those who have indicated an inability to responsibly handle it) may not change a killer's innate desire to kill, but it can at least mitigate the collateral damage. Your hypothetical weapons list is very limited, but artfully tailored to your argument. With no gun, I would of used a weed sprayer with a couple of gallons of gasoline in a centrally located room at Sandy Hook to create a room sized fuel/ air bomb big enough to kill everyone in that school. Cost about $20.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 15, 2015 13:09:34 GMT -5
I dunno, that sounds like a lot more effort than grabbing a couple of guns and hopping in the car. Which may be why you don't hear about it happening (in the US) too often. Plus I would imagine that a group of people having gasoline sprayed at them might be more likely to run, tackle the assailant, etc. than a group of people having a gun pointed at them... I mean isn't that the argument? We need more guns in schools because that's the only way to take down a shooter?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2015 13:21:15 GMT -5
well, you have to be joking about that question. if i don't have an assault rifle, and i want to kill 50 people, i am doing it with a bomb. if i don't have a bomb, i am not doing it. it is really that simple. you either have the tool, or you don't. but to say your behavior would be the same whether you had it or not is silly. edit: if you are talking about suicide bombings, they have nothing to do with gun control. NOTHING. weapons are readily available in most of the countries where these things happen. it is way more complicated and subtle than "tools". it is psych ops. You are the same person who thought that the information intake of an insane person was the same as a normal in a different gun thread, and yes I pointed out that error to you then also. Using your judgment on behavior and it's silliness in any situation isn't carrying your argument today. "the information intake of an insane person"? what insane person? the "terrorist"? or someone like Adam Lanza?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 13:23:52 GMT -5
I dunno, that sounds like a lot more effort than grabbing a couple of guns and hopping in the car. Which may be why you don't hear about it happening (in the US) too often. Plus I would imagine that a group of people having gasoline sprayed at them might be more likely to run, tackle the assailant, etc. than a group of people having a gun pointed at them... I mean isn't that the argument? We need more guns in schools because that's the only way to take down a shooter? Your limiting yourself for the sake of argument. A weed sprayer can be walked into a school on grass cutting day with no suspicion. Getting one is easier and cheaper than procuring a firearm. Any empty storeroom/utility room will suffice. We have totally fallible trained police entering a gun free zone on school property to confront a shooter with travel delay times. This is OK. Trained school employees already on site is a no-no. Why ?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 13:30:39 GMT -5
You are the same person who thought that the information intake of an insane person was the same as a normal in a different gun thread, and yes I pointed out that error to you then also. Using your judgment on behavior and it's silliness in any situation isn't carrying your argument today. "the information intake of an insane person"? what insane person? the "terrorist"? I think the sidetracking between us in regards to the OP of this thread is getting out of hand. I was going by previous arguments you've made in other threads on school shootings. It's not a requirement for me to impress my point. Thanks for your time here.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Oct 15, 2015 13:34:11 GMT -5
You care, or the OP wouldn't exist on this thread. Why do you think I want to shoot anyone ? That's applying collective guilt to gun owners. That is like applying collective guilt for spoon owners because we have a growing overweight problem in this country. I cared October 1st when I started this thread. As of October 14th, I no longer care. ETA: Spoons were/are not designed to make people overweight. Firearms were designed to put a hole through something beside a paper target. Spoons in high profile jails, are a dangerous weapon
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 13:40:29 GMT -5
You care, or the OP wouldn't exist on this thread. Why do you think I want to shoot anyone ? That's applying collective guilt to gun owners. That is like applying collective guilt for spoon owners because we have a growing overweight problem in this country. I cared October 1st when I started this thread. As of October 14th, I no longer care. ETA: Spoons were/are not designed to make people overweight. Firearms were designed to put a hole through something beside a paper target. In response to your ETA; They are designed to protect me/family, and mostly supply fresh dinner.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 15, 2015 13:44:01 GMT -5
So why isn't this happening on a monthly basis like mass shootings now seem to be?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2015 13:44:46 GMT -5
"the information intake of an insane person"? what insane person? the "terrorist"? or someone like Adam Lanza? I think the sidetracking between us in regards to the OP of this thread is getting out of hand. um....we are talking about school shootings, right? how is that "sidetracking"? I was going by previous arguments you've made in other threads on school shootings. i never made any statements about "the information intake" of any school shooter on this or any other thread. you must be mistaking me for another poster.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 13:58:47 GMT -5
I think the sidetracking between us in regards to the OP of this thread is getting out of hand. um....we are talking about school shootings, right? how is that "sidetracking"? I was going by previous arguments you've made in other threads on school shootings. i never made any statements about "the information intake" of any school shooter on this or any other thread. you must be mistaking me for another poster. No mistake and not in those exact words, but if I took the time and backtracked and found that discussion and showed it to you I would just get another semantic spin. Not important enough to me.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 14:04:02 GMT -5
So why isn't this happening on a monthly basis like mass shootings now seem to be? You seem to have a lot of questions for me and yet no answers for mine.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 15, 2015 14:15:09 GMT -5
So why isn't this happening on a monthly basis like mass shootings now seem to be? You seem to have a lot of questions for me and yet no answers for mine. The only question I could find in any of your posts directed at me was the following: Because the public doesn't want it? I never said that was a no-no, so I really don't know. You suggested that eliminating guns is not going to eliminate the ability of people to kill other people. In general, I agree. But since guns seem to be the weapon of choice of 99.9% of U.S. spree killers, I am wondering why that is.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Oct 15, 2015 14:29:21 GMT -5
1) Depends on where the guns are kept. Teachers packing heat would be too dangerous IMHO. A high school boy could knock one down, grab her gun, and suddenly you've created a school shooter incident where you didn't have one before. If, on the other hand, you want to keep fire arms in a locked safe in some central spot and only give keys to trained employees - ok, although you still run the risk of a student getting hold of a key. At my HS, students took the gym teacher's sports car and put it on the gym roof - so I have a feeling a locked gun safe would be catnip to them.
2) One word -crossfire
3) Our school system had to stop offering art, drivers ed and restricted the school bus service. I'm pretty sure most educators, asked to decide between purchasing and installing a gun safe, providing training for teachers, pay the higher insurance rate they would have to pay (see number 2 above) and weapons vs school buses, they would vote for having the school buses. Most school systems are probably about as broke as ours are, so arming themselves would have to come at the expense of other, more normal school expenses.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 15, 2015 14:51:36 GMT -5
I cared October 1st when I started this thread. As of October 14th, I no longer care. ETA: Spoons were/are not designed to make people overweight. Firearms were designed to put a hole through something beside a paper target. Spoons in high profile jais, are a dangerous weapon Spoons were not invented and designed to put a hole in/injure/kill a living thing. The shirt on your back is a dangerous weapon too.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2015 15:32:32 GMT -5
i never made any statements about "the information intake" of any school shooter on this or any other thread. you must be mistaking me for another poster. No mistake and not in those exact words, but if I took the time and backtracked and found that discussion and showed it to you I would just get another semantic spin. Not important enough to me. give it to Virgil. he seems to be made for such tasks. in the mean time, let's just say you are categorically wrong, rather than mistaken. i never said anything remotely like what you accused me of saying.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2015 15:33:40 GMT -5
So why isn't this happening on a monthly basis like mass shootings now seem to be? You seem to have a lot of questions for me and yet no answers for mine. you seem to have a lot of accusations about other posters, but no time to back them up.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 15, 2015 16:35:47 GMT -5
I cared October 1st when I started this thread. As of October 14th, I no longer care. ETA: Spoons were/are not designed to make people overweight. Firearms were designed to put a hole through something beside a paper target. In response to your ETA; They are designed to protect me/family , and mostly supply fresh dinner. You shoot game with a handgun?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 16:51:19 GMT -5
You care, or the OP wouldn't exist on this thread. Why do you think I want to shoot anyone ? That's applying collective guilt to gun owners. That is like applying collective guilt for spoon owners because we have a growing overweight problem in this country. I cared October 1st when I started this thread. As of October 14th, I no longer care. ETA: Spoons were/are not designed to make people overweight. Firearms were designed to put a hole through something beside a paper target. I dont think that is right. I think most guns are bought and made to make people feel safer and for fun shooting. Guns sell pretty well. How could that be if they were an over 99% failure rate at doing what they were made and bought to do? Most pistols in America are never used to kill anyone yet most people are happy with the guns they own and are happy they never killed anyone.
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