zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 26, 2015 19:28:58 GMT -5
She's a minor. Parents are legally responsible.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 26, 2015 20:19:04 GMT -5
...:::"She does not have a job and basically refuses to get one. She understands that this choice has kept her from getting the car.":::...
This is the part that worries me the most. I think she understands these things as concepts, but isn't necessarily convinced they will always apply to her specifically.
It will be interesting to see how this all pans out, and what she will take from this situation as a life lesson.
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msventoux
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Post by msventoux on Aug 26, 2015 22:48:58 GMT -5
I would take the car if it's signed over in your name. Tell daughter she has however long to get a job (a month?) to be able to afford the car. If she refuses to do so you're selling the car. Maybe actually having the car sitting in your driveway would spur her on to getting off of her butt and starting towards becoming a responsible adult. Is this the daughter you've said is a bit of a princess anyways?
Either that or keep the car and if she refuses to get a job offer it to younger daughter when the time comes if she's willing to work for it.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Aug 26, 2015 23:15:01 GMT -5
Knee Deep in Water Chloe, Don't take the car!! You said it's in his name, leave it there. How do you know it isn't a death trap (says one who lost a kid in a unsafe car bought by an x). Don't accept a liability that you may never recover from. 1. It's his responsibility to figure out what to do with it while his street is being repaired -- not yours 2. A 16 yr old broken down car isn't that valuable 3. Driving is a privilege with responsibility not a right by virtue of turning 16
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marvholly
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Post by marvholly on Aug 27, 2015 5:52:01 GMT -5
We put our kids in a car for OUR convienence right after they tured 16 BUT the rules were:
You must work to pay the insurance uptick (it was our back-up car) and gas. We did pay maintenance & license.
Did not hurt eiher of them. We offered to let the keep the car while in college IF they went to wschool locally (we live in metro Chiccago) and lived at home. Both refused. DD1 went without a car until her senior college year & paid all car expenses then. DD2 kept her car even though going to school away BUT paid ALL car expenses.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 27, 2015 6:02:31 GMT -5
Trouble is kids SAY they're going to pay this, then something happens. I don't think school is any easier now and my kids were swamped with schoolwork and forced volunteering. Summers were it for working Maybe a beater doesn't cost much bcuz of not having collision but do you want your kid in a beater unless it's a tank? This has bad news written all over it.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 27, 2015 6:03:04 GMT -5
If he's got a job get your child support and then you decide how it's spent.
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kjto1
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Post by kjto1 on Aug 27, 2015 7:10:27 GMT -5
I would decline the car. 1 - How much would you really get as old as it is, and if it is not in good shape vs. the hassle of selling it. 2 - Easier to decline it than sell it and get grief from XH or Daughter. 3 - Until you sell, or daughter decides to drive it, if it is parked in the street, it will need to be plated - then it will need to be insured. Or, you could garage it, and your car can sit outside? Yeah, no. 4 - Also, are you sure that daughter won't lift the keys, and go for a ride without permission? 5 - This car is XH problem, not yours. Much easier to decline.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Aug 27, 2015 7:52:22 GMT -5
Trouble is kids SAY they're going to pay this, then something happens. I don't think school is any easier now and my kids were swamped with schoolwork and forced volunteering. This. My DS is all jacked up because my neighbor who owns a small business is willing to hire DS when DS is 14. I'm like, no, kid. If he wants to get into a better college, it's as many AP courses as he can take, volunteering, and activities. Now, volunteering is part of the school curriculum. I have one high school client now, that has a job. She's not the norm. The last time I had a college-track client that also had a W-2 job was 7 or 8 years ago. One of my old clients didn't even get a job during the summer. The summer between her sophomore and junior year, she was doing research at our state flagship university and learning how to create and present posters. I have to say, if ANY of my kids are smart enough to be exposed to those skills while they are still in HS, absolutely, I will push these experiences over a McJob.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Aug 27, 2015 9:03:48 GMT -5
It IS possible to go to school, work part-time, do after-school activities, AND take the AP courses. My DD did it. She worked every weekend, but M-F did strictly school stuff. (Of course there were nights she was up very late studying, but it was good practice for college.) She was recruited by more than one excellent private college, and towards the end of the college search, two of them were competing for her by improving their aid packages.
I agree that if your DD doesn't want to work, she's not yet ready for the responsibility of a car. And, if you were seriously considering taking the car, I'd have a good mechanic look it over. At this age that car could have some major issues. A car isn't a good gift if the transmission is slipping, or if the engine block is cracking, or it needs some other expensive work.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Aug 27, 2015 9:40:01 GMT -5
Decline the car. Why should you have the hassles that come along with it just so your ex can feel like a hero and your kid can feel entitled. If you sign the title, it's your problem. I especially wouldn't want to take that on being that I was never asked and the kid refuses to help pay for it.
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PK Bucko
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Post by PK Bucko on Aug 27, 2015 9:47:08 GMT -5
There's way too much baggage and not enough money. Decline the car.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 27, 2015 9:47:03 GMT -5
I say take it and sell it. Selling a car isn't that big of a deal.
At worst you sell it for scrap but you still get some money out of the deal.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Aug 27, 2015 9:58:13 GMT -5
She still has to get insurance, pay taxes and register it and wait for a clean title meanwhile maintaining the taxes and insurance on it for a couple of months to be able to sell it. This is assuming she doesn't have a dealers license which is doubtful.
This brings up another question. Has ex been keeping up taxes and insurance while he's had it? How about maintenance? Are you being given a death trap? If he doesn't even care if his kid eats or not since he's so behind on CS, how reliable can the car be? Tell them both no and that you don't want to hear anything else about it and stick to it. Let them figure it out.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Aug 27, 2015 11:26:44 GMT -5
Understand that if the DD drives it without insurance and it's tempting, the OP is on the hook for it. The simplest answer is no to the car coming over. You sure? My brother got some tickets as a teen and the court went after him for unpaid fines and stuff. My mom ultimately helped him out, once he started getting his shit together, but she wasn't required to. Right, wrong, or indifferent, if the poster's child was driving an uninsured car, for whatever reason, got in an accident, and caused serious injury, property damage, or caused the death of another person, it's probable that the injured parties would sue the custodial parent, the poster. I'd claim that the custodial parent was legally responsible for the actions of the minor child, that parent provided inadequate supervision of the minor child, and that the presence of an uninsured automobile to which the minor child could gain access amounted to negligence on the part of the custodial parent because a reasonable person would recognize the possibility that a driver's license holding teenager might go joyriding in the uninsured vehicle and get involved in an accident. Simply having to defend against a lawsuit, valid or not, is expensive. By my best estimate, it cost my employer over $50K to defend against a frivolous wrongful termination suit that I was involved in. And that suit was so weak that it never got to trial.
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t-dog
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Post by t-dog on Aug 27, 2015 12:34:42 GMT -5
I wouldn't rely on NOLO for liability limits.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Aug 27, 2015 19:02:22 GMT -5
Has nothing to do with liability limits. Read the bolded sentence. Parents in California can only be held liable for damages their children cause behind the wheel if they give the kid permission to drive the car. The whole having an uninsured car which is obviously too tempting for a teen so the parents are responsible because they should have known better argument won't work. At least here it won't. In other states, maybe. Whether you are legally liable under the state statues really isn't the issue. People can sue you regardless of whether you would ultimately be held liable during a trial or not. Many people and attorneys are willing to play the litigation lottery in hopes that someone will pay them to go away, rather than incur the cost of defending against a frivolous lawsuit. An uninsured car vs. an insured car? The difference is enormous. If the car is insured, at least you have the insurance company to help foot the bills and to defend against frivolous suits. An uninsured car, I'd expect that you'd be on your own. Even if you have homeowner's insurance that could provide some protection, I'd expect that you'd be suing your homeowner's carrier to try to get them to honor a claim, in addition to trying to defend yourself against a suit by an injured party.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Aug 27, 2015 19:14:36 GMT -5
Couple more clarifications, and I hope to have time tomorrow to peruse your answers and discuss our current (non-existent) plan.
1)We do have room to park it. We have an RV parking area that is covered. The car will fit and I won't even have to see it. 2)If we were to keep it and let it sit until next, I would either lock the keys up at DH's office or put them in a bank lock box. 3)I'll try to find out what the actual cost is for adding the car to our insurance making our policy three cars and three drivers. 4)DD has been asked to join the paint crew at DH's school district. She'd make minimum wage. She's actually really good at painting. She has the potential to earn probably $300 prior to school starting. She doesn't know about this recent communique from XH, so she's taking this work opportunity regardless of our decision about the car.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 27, 2015 19:27:40 GMT -5
I'm always interested in these only weekend jobs that kids are expected to find. If adults can't, how can kids? I realize babysitting pays around ten bucks an hour cash but that doesn't always happen every weekend. I'd be floored if the 300 bucks the daughter is going to earn pays for gas for the school year let alone insurance and maintenance. Another money suck for the OP to handle. While Daddy looks like a prince.
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tama
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Post by tama on Aug 27, 2015 20:03:03 GMT -5
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 27, 2015 20:39:56 GMT -5
I know.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Aug 27, 2015 22:52:37 GMT -5
Whether you are legally liable under the state statues really isn't the issue. People can sue you regardless of whether you would ultimately be held liable during a trial or not. Many people and attorneys are willing to play the litigation lottery in hopes that someone will pay them to go away, rather than incur the cost of defending against a frivolous lawsuit. An uninsured car vs. an insured car? The difference is enormous. If the car is insured, at least you have the insurance company to help foot the bills and to defend against frivolous suits. An uninsured car, I'd expect that you'd be on your own. Even if you have homeowner's insurance that could provide some protection, I'd expect that you'd be suing your homeowner's carrier to try to get them to honor a claim, in addition to trying to defend yourself against a suit by an injured party. True. I keep going back to how simple this all could be though. Have him transfer title to OP, drive it straight to a used car dealer, ask them how much they'll give you on the spot in cash for it. Say yes no matter what number they come back with. If it's only $500 whatever, it's a free $500 that you didn't have that morning. Selling a car really isn't that hard. But it's not that simple. Unless she has a dealers license, she has to go and register the car and wait for a clean title in the mail. This means paying property taxes and insurance. While waiting for the title (90 days here), she is responsible for the car. This means maintaining insurance and taxes as required by law as the titled owner of the vehicle. So this extra $500 could easily cost that much just getting it ready for her to be able to sell it.
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lund
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Post by lund on Aug 28, 2015 4:05:29 GMT -5
I wonder what the DB father has told the daughter about the car and who will be paying for what and who can afford it.... My suspicion since he is behaving like a douchecanoe (not paying CS and not clearing about the car with the other parent beforehand, not willing to provide proof of insurance), he may have some more influence on the daughter's behavior here. Not wanting to work and wanting to have or regularly drive a car is for most young people not compatible, so where has she got the idea that she should? Some thoughts of mine: If he has previously successfully "whined and cried" to his wife (at the time) to get her paying for his wants, he may have told the daughter that her mother should pay, it is just a matter of waiting and crying and repeating/explaining thoroughly that she wants it, the mother can afford it if she wants to, he has previously had to pay so much money in CS that there should certainly be enough available, the mother will change her mind over time, that now when there is something that matters to the daughter there should be money enough since she has not got anything special/expensive earlier from the mother (happily forgetting about living costs), and so on. Anyway he has probably "gifted" the daughter with a car thinking that the mother will pay in order not to be the bad guy or refuse and be the bad guy, while he will be the generous dad anyway. The daughter will probably be gravely displeased about any outcome here, since her mother has obviously learnt a lot! I see some ways: - The father keeps the car, street work or not. Probably the easiest way.
- The mother accepts the car in her name and sells it, probably with a lot of drama but generating some money for the daughter. (Which I suspect that the XH will try to get deducted from his CS...)
- The mother accepts the car in her name and lets it stand while waiting for the daughter to start earning and paying insurance , which may cost the mother money (plates, parking, perhaps insurance, depreciation,...) and will generate work (keeping up with payments, parking and maintenance) and the risk that the daughter will want to drive it for nothing and start bickering about that.
- The mother accepts the car in her name and has it as a second/third family car (which will mean that the daughter will probably try to get to drive the fully driveable car, "her" car, regularly for nothing).
The last alternative is IMO the worst one. It includes an unnecessary car which will be the target of whining and complaints, both from a wannabe driver and from the XH (who has a vested interest in the daughter driving). If the third alternative, decide on a certain period, like one month, and unless the daughter starts working and taking on the expenses, it will be sold when the period is over. Both daughter and XH will complain. The second I suppose could mean a bit of legal paper-chewing too for the so inclined, since the car has some value and is transferred to you for the benefit of the daughter, which might be seen as a way of paying CS. I would go with the first, since it is the most hassle-free. The daughter will be angry anyway. (When/if she starts driving as a minor or while still financially subsidized by you, consider having a driving contract with her, including among other things who pays for what and when - she everything unless driving for you, what to do if there is no money when the insurance is due - parental loan and surrendering the keyes until repaid is a good idea, any tickets - she pays, passengers - not more than none or one pre-approved during the first year, no music in car during the first year, curfews, equipment to keep in car such as snow scraper and emergency blanket, allowed and forbidden areas/roads for driving, rules about driving in darkness/ice/snow, what necessary and basic upkeep shall be made how often - liquids and lamps checked, 5 tires checked/pressure checked/rotated/replaced, the windscreen wipers changed, and so on. The maint costs are often forgotten when planning the spending.) Hang in there, Chloe! (Zib - is there a process to keep the debts to you "alive", avoiding any aging-out risks?)
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Aug 28, 2015 6:31:34 GMT -5
I wouldn't accept it unless you plan on letting her drive it. My inlaws sold their son's car when he was 17 and he still holds a grudge at 45.
Since she is already insured, I can't imagine it would be very expensive to add liability for a 1999 or older car. I drive a 1998 with liability only and it is $200/year. CarMax offered $100 for the trade in value so I walked. They offer $200 for our perfectly fine 2000. So you might be surprised what you can really get for an old car.
My parents got me a car I could share with my sister at 16. They paid for insurance and maintenance. It didn't turn us into spoiled brats and made it much easier to get full time summer jobs. We saved that money for college. And my parent were off the hook driving us everywhere. It may not be an option if you're broke, but if you can squeeze it, it may not be so bad.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Aug 28, 2015 9:01:23 GMT -5
I wouldn't accept it unless you plan on letting her drive it. My inlaws sold their son's car when he was 17 and he still holds a grudge at 45. Since she is already insured, I can't imagine it would be very expensive to add liability for a 1999 or older car. I drive a 1998 with liability only and it is $200/year. CarMax offered $100 for the trade in value so I walked. They offer $200 for our perfectly fine 2000. So you might be surprised what you can really get for an old car. My parents got me a car I could share with my sister at 16. They paid for insurance and maintenance. It didn't turn us into spoiled brats and made it much easier to get full time summer jobs. We saved that money for college. And my parent were off the hook driving us everywhere. It may not be an option if you're broke, but if you can squeeze it, it may not be so bad. You'd be surprised. The daughter, from my understanding is already listed on the insurance as an incidental or occasional driver. You would then take her and add a car which would increase premium and then also make her a full time driver which would further increase premium. If you have a number of cars equal to or greater than the number of drivers, the kid will be a full time driver on a car because the insurance company rates for the highest risk first. If you don't assign them to a car, the insurance company will do it for you and it will be on the car that brings the highest premium.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Aug 28, 2015 10:43:35 GMT -5
Whether you are legally liable under the state statues really isn't the issue. People can sue you regardless of whether you would ultimately be held liable during a trial or not. Many people and attorneys are willing to play the litigation lottery in hopes that someone will pay them to go away, rather than incur the cost of defending against a frivolous lawsuit. An uninsured car vs. an insured car? The difference is enormous. If the car is insured, at least you have the insurance company to help foot the bills and to defend against frivolous suits. An uninsured car, I'd expect that you'd be on your own. Even if you have homeowner's insurance that could provide some protection, I'd expect that you'd be suing your homeowner's carrier to try to get them to honor a claim, in addition to trying to defend yourself against a suit by an injured party. True. I keep going back to how simple this all could be though. Have him transfer title to OP, drive it straight to a used car dealer, ask them how much they'll give you on the spot in cash for it. Say yes no matter what number they come back with. If it's only $500 whatever, it's a free $500 that you didn't have that morning. Selling a car really isn't that hard. That's true. Getting rid of the car is probably the most reasonable thing to do. However, it seems like Dad gave the car to the daughter. If Mom were to sell the car now, it's probable that the daughter would view that as Mom selling the car her Dad gave her. Regardless of what happens to the money from selling the car. Some discussions with the daughter about the short term future of the car might be in order. Especially considering that the daughter isn't willing to get a job to pay for the insurance, gas, and maintenance. It's possible that she doesn't really care about the car, and selling it would be a non-issue. However, if she were to insist on keeping the car, there are some fairly simple ways to make sure that it can't be driven while it is uninsured. Few cars run very well without spark plug wires and an ignition coil module. Or without a starter.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Aug 28, 2015 10:47:50 GMT -5
If the daughter refuses to get a job and help with the car, why should she have any input on what happens with it? Hell, since she wouldn't be the titled owner anyway, she absolutely should not have any input.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 28, 2015 11:28:51 GMT -5
I wonder what the DB father has told the daughter about the car and who will be paying for what and who can afford it.... My suspicion since he is behaving like a douchecanoe (not paying CS and not clearing about the car with the other parent beforehand, not willing to provide proof of insurance), he may have some more influence on the daughter's behavior here. Not wanting to work and wanting to have or regularly drive a car is for most young people not compatible, so where has she got the idea that she should? Some thoughts of mine: If he has previously successfully "whined and cried" to his wife (at the time) to get her paying for his wants, he may have told the daughter that her mother should pay, it is just a matter of waiting and crying and repeating/explaining thoroughly that she wants it, the mother can afford it if she wants to, he has previously had to pay so much money in CS that there should certainly be enough available, the mother will change her mind over time, that now when there is something that matters to the daughter there should be money enough since she has not got anything special/expensive earlier from the mother (happily forgetting about living costs), and so on. Anyway he has probably "gifted" the daughter with a car thinking that the mother will pay in order not to be the bad guy or refuse and be the bad guy, while he will be the generous dad anyway. The daughter will probably be gravely displeased about any outcome here, since her mother has obviously learnt a lot! I see some ways: - The father keeps the car, street work or not. Probably the easiest way.
- The mother accepts the car in her name and sells it, probably with a lot of drama but generating some money for the daughter. (Which I susupect that the XH will try to get deducted from his CS...)
- The mother accepts the car in her name and lets it stand while waiting for the daughter to start earning and paying insurance , which may cost the mother money (plates, parking, perhaps insurance, depreciation,...) and will generate work (keeping up with payments, parking and maintenance) and the risk that the daughter will want to drive it for nothing and start bickering about that.
- The mother accepts the car in her name and has it as a second/third family car (which will mean that the daughter will probably try to get to drive the fully driveable car, "her" car, regularly for nothing).
The last alternative is IMO the worst one. It includes an unnecessary car which will be the target of whining and complaints, both from a wannabe driver and from the XH (who has a vested interest in the daughter driving). If the third alternative, decide on a certain period, like one month, and unless the daughter starts working and taking on the expenses, it will be sold when the period is over. Both daughter and XH will complain. The second I suppose could mean a bit of legal paper-chewing too for the so inclined, since the car has some value and is transferred to you for the benefit of the daughter, which might be seen as a way of paying CS. I would go with the first, since it is the most hassle-free. The daughter will be angry anyway. (When/if she starts driving as a minor or while still financially subsidized by you, consider having a driving contract with her, including among other things who pays for what and when - she everything unless driving for you, what to do if there is no money when the insurance is due - parental loan and surrendering the keyes until repaid is a good idea, any tickets - she pays, passengers - not more than none or one pre-approved during the first year, no music in car during the first year, curfews, equipment to keep in car such as snow scraper and emergency blanket, allowed and forbidden areas/roads for driving, rules about driving in darkness/ice/snow, what necessary and basic upkeep shall be made how often - liquids and lamps checked, 5 tires checked/pressure checked/rotated/replaced, the windscreen wipers changed, and so on. The maint costs are often forgotten when planning the spending.) Hang in there, Chloe! (Zib - is there a process to keep the debts to you "alive", avoiding any aging-out risks?) Yes, there is. Unless I die. Then he's home free. I'm planning on outliving him.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Aug 28, 2015 11:41:43 GMT -5
From NOLO, regarding parental responsibility laws (bolded relevant sentence); Your quote states that parents MAY ALSO BE LIABLE in California & OP would be as DD would be operating vehicle WITH OP's permission if she permitted vehicle at her home EDITED: X didn't give the car to anyone if he didn't transfer title. Not OP prob
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t-dog
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Post by t-dog on Aug 28, 2015 12:00:44 GMT -5
Has nothing to do with liability limits. Read the bolded sentence. Parents in California can only be held liable for damages their children cause behind the wheel if they give the kid permission to drive the car. The whole having an uninsured car which is obviously too tempting for a teen so the parents are responsible because they should have known better argument won't work. At least here it won't. In other states, maybe. Permission doesn't have to be explicit to be held liable. There are cases where simply having a spare set of keys in the house and kid taking car while parents aren't home resulted in parental liability.
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