Teachers fleeing Indiana ... Republican policies

[Opti]

www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2015/08/13/indianas-got-a-problem-too-many-teachers-dont-want-to-work-there-anymore/

Indiana’s got a problem: Teachers increasingly don’t want to work in the state anymore. The problem has become so acute that some school districts have have had a hard time finding enough teachers to cover classes for the new school year — and some lawmakers want a legislative committee to discuss the shortage.

The percentage of all teachers getting a teaching license — including veterans — fell by more than 50 percent from 2009-10 to 2013-14 — and there was an 18.5 percent decline in the number of licenses issued to new teachers during the same period, according to Indiana Department of Education figures.

The Muncie Star-Press reported in December 2014 that enrollment in the program to train kindergarten and elementary school teachers fell by 45 percent over the previous decade.

What’s going on? Pretty much the same thing as in Arizona, Kansas and other states where teachers are fleeing: a combination of under-resourced schools, the loss of job protections, unfair teacher evaluation methods, an increase in the amount of mandated standardized testing and the loss of professional autonomy.

According to the Indianapolis Star, the Republican chairmen of the House and Senate education committees have asked General Assembly leaders to approve having the legislative education study committee review what is causing the drop and how the state could respond.

For one thing, they can look in the mirror. The Republican leadership of the state — including Gov. Mike Pence — showed their respect for teachers by working very hard this year to strip power from Indiana Superintendent of Public Instruction Glenda Ritz, a veteran educator who won election to the post in 2012 (by defeating Tony Bennett, the incumbent who was a protege of former Florida governor Jeb Bush). Oh, by the way, she is a Democrat. David Long, the Republican president of the Indiana Senate, said while explaining why the legislature would want to remove Ritz as chairman of the state Board of Education: “In all fairness, Superintendent Ritz was a librarian, okay?”

[Tennesseer]

Interesting, Opti.

I read the below article the other day:

Teacher Shortages Spur a Nationwide Hiring Scramble (Credentials Optional)

[Deleted]

a combination of under-resourced schools, the loss of job protections, unfair teacher evaluation methods, an increase in the amount of mandated standardized testing and the loss of professional autonomy.

which of those are bad?
under resourced schools---sounds bad, but I do not know what it means.

the loss of job protections---- no one would want to fire a bad teacher if they are having trouble getting teachers, sounds as if they are firing bad teachers

increase in the amount of mandated standardized testing------I think that is probably bad.

the loss of professional autonomy--- not sure what that means, but I think it means the education system doesn't get to rule itself, that sounds good if that is what it means.

[wmpeon]

Aug 13, 2015 18:31:58 GMT -5 @hickle said:

the loss of job protections---- no one would want to fire a bad teacher if they are having trouble getting teachers, sounds as if they are firing bad teachers

Well one thing that comes to mind, is that our local teachers receive pink slips at the end of the year, which is apparently tied to budget shortages.  It isn't until closer to the beginning of school that teachers learn whether they still have a job.  In most cases the teachers are brought back, but I would personally hate this dance of the pink slips. 

[djAdvocate]

the loss of everything that makes Finland great?  sounds like a recipe for disaster.

[Artemis Windsong]

Bismarck, North Dakota can use those teachers.  I have no idea about the other concerns but I know it's better than what they have.

[Value Buy]

As far as teachers fleeing Indiana, many schools in our area have declining enrollments due to all the schools being sponsored by Ball State or another institution. Many
of these schools have some lay teachers. 
With public schools losing students they have to lay off teachers because the population is so low.
Then you have all the idiot mothers who decide they have to home school their kids because "Johnny or Suzie" have problems with the teachers or fellow pupils.

As far as firing teachers, it is great they can get rid of poor performing teachers for the first time in a century.

[Shooby]

There are hundreds of applications for every teaching position.

[mmhmm]

Aug 13, 2015 21:44:58 GMT -5 Shooby said:

There are hundreds of applications for every teaching position.

That depends on where you are. There are definitely areas that are facing shortages.

[SweetVirginia]

It seems that the recession of 2008-2009 ,which led to budget cuts and pink slips in education, has led to a shortage in teachers throughout some parts of the country. I believe this shortage is only in specific locations in the U.S.  Here in Southern CA... we have been able to re-hire most of our pink slipped teachers up to the last school year (I was one of those who was pink slipped). Nevertheless, I have spoken to a couple of young people who have been interested in becoming teachers but have been exposed to the negative and almost demonizing language used against teachers in general. Also, many of the traditional benefits which were once enjoyed by teachers (not along with pay i must say) have been reduced , such as pension benefits and so-called "Cadillac" medical insurance . Being a public school teacher, I know first hand that there are a too many useless, good for nothing, teachers who should be fired but cant be because of tenure.    That said... Many teachers, such as myself, work very hard, love what they do, are totally dedicated to the quality education of our students, and truly do earn their pay and benefits...and then some.  My hope is that we do not alienate young, smart, dedicated future teachers because of the negative talk about teachers, unions, etc.  

[mroped]

You get a BA or Masters in education and make $40-$50K a year doing your best and people scream bloody murder because you have health insurance and supposedly 3 months vacation and want to fire your ass.
You get an MBA and hit Wall Street and fumble with millions and make it disappear, retire at 30 after literally banckrupting people and destroying their lives and nobody cares or hears about it.

In this country, we pay teachers dirt and expect them to turn our progennies into some savants that would be runners up for Nobel Price or at least a Pullitzer.
This all the while we keep throwing in their faces that they have three month vacation and retirement fund matching plans. No respect whatsoever! None!!!

How did we get as adults to have the jobs that we have, to know what we know about life and the world? Self educated?
Give me a break: a teacher showed you the right end of the pencil and how to use it. A teacher told you or showed you how to open a book and find what you need for information.

Like anywhere else, in any other trade, there are those that are not good at their jobs- teaching I mean. But that is because those that do have the gift of teaching others decide to do something else where they wouldn't have to explain to careless parents that their child needs help or direction.
Many parents believe that dropping their kid to school is the end of their obligation.

And VB, the mention of homeschooling is a misplaced, cheap shot at those that do it.
The reasons for homeschooling are the exact same ones mentioned in OP and we, as parents refuse to put our children thru that.

[Value Buy]

Aug 14, 2015 6:24:09 GMT -5 mroped said:

And VB, the mention of homeschooling is a misplaced, cheap shot at those that do it.
The reasons for homeschooling are the exact same ones mentioned in OP and we, as parents refuse to put our children thru that.

 We have mothers home schooling their kids who are non-highschool graduates who are diagnosed with bi-polar, and other fun issues, on medication, sometimes, but not always, just because they think they do not need the meds.
I have seen the end result of this shit.
It is not good for the kids.
The "classes" can be done "online", with parents who barely know how to get on the internet in the first place. "Playtime" is virtually anytime mom becomes bored with actually trying to teach the kids the education class, and two or three years of this the kids get dumped back into the public school.
There has to be some standards in place with the parents, to actually educate their kids.
Indiana tries to enforce rules and time limits, but like anything else many of these home schooled kids fall through the cracks.
Easier to check out a thousand public schools for real results than ten thousand home school families.

[Value Buy]

Aug 13, 2015 13:15:46 GMT -5 Opti said:

www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2015/08/13/indianas-got-a-problem-too-many-teachers-dont-want-to-work-there-anymore/

Indiana’s got a problem: Teachers increasingly don’t want to work in the state anymore. The problem has become so acute that some school districts have have had a hard time finding enough teachers to cover classes for the new school year — and some lawmakers want a legislative committee to discuss the shortage.

The percentage of all teachers getting a teaching license — including veterans — fell by more than 50 percent from 2009-10 to 2013-14 — and there was an 18.5 percent decline in the number of licenses issued to new teachers during the same period, according to Indiana Department of Education figures.

The Muncie Star-Press reported in December 2014 that enrollment in the program to train kindergarten and elementary school teachers fell by 45 percent over the previous decade.

What’s going on? Pretty much the same thing as in Arizona, Kansas and other states where teachers are fleeing: a combination of under-resourced schools, the loss of job protections, unfair teacher evaluation methods, an increase in the amount of mandated standardized testing and the loss of professional autonomy.

According to the Indianapolis Star, the Republican chairmen of the House and Senate education committees have asked General Assembly leaders to approve having the legislative education study committee review what is causing the drop and how the state could respond.

For one thing, they can look in the mirror. The Republican leadership of the state — including Gov. Mike Pence — showed their respect for teachers by working very hard this year to strip power from Indiana Superintendent of Public Instruction Glenda Ritz, a veteran educator who won election to the post in 2012 (by defeating Tony Bennett, the incumbent who was a protege of former Florida governor Jeb Bush). Oh, by the way, she is a Democrat. David Long, the Republican president of the Indiana Senate, said while explaining why the legislature would want to remove Ritz as chairman of the state Board of Education: “In all fairness, Superintendent Ritz was a librarian, okay?”

How about an article on Illinois, and Chicago.
How many schools have they closed so far and how many will be closed in the next two years?
Chicago just announced the latest round of letting go hundreds of teachers, due to money cutbacks and lack of students.

[Tennesseer]

Aug 14, 2015 8:41:08 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Aug 14, 2015 6:24:09 GMT -5 mroped said:

And VB, the mention of homeschooling is a misplaced, cheap shot at those that do it.
The reasons for homeschooling are the exact same ones mentioned in OP and we, as parents refuse to put our children thru that.

 We have mothers home schooling their kids who are non-highschool graduates who are diagnosed with bi-polar, and other fun issues, on medication, sometimes, but not always, just because they think they do not need the meds.
I have seen the end result of this shit.
It is not good for the kids.
The "classes" can be done "online", with parents who barely know how to get on the internet in the first place. "Playtime" is virtually anytime mom becomes bored with actually trying to teach the kids the education class, and two or three years of this the kids get dumped back into the public school.
There has to be some standards in place with the parents, to actually educate their kids.
Indiana tries to enforce rules and time limits, but like anything else many of these home schooled kids fall through the cracks.
Easier to check out a thousand public schools for real results than ten thousand home school families.

Are you against home schooling for religious reasons?

[Value Buy]

Aug 14, 2015 8:45:45 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Aug 14, 2015 8:41:08 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

 We have mothers home schooling their kids who are non-highschool graduates who are diagnosed with bi-polar, and other fun issues, on medication, sometimes, but not always, just because they think they do not need the meds.
I have seen the end result of this shit.
It is not good for the kids.
The "classes" can be done "online", with parents who barely know how to get on the internet in the first place. "Playtime" is virtually anytime mom becomes bored with actually trying to teach the kids the education class, and two or three years of this the kids get dumped back into the public school.
There has to be some standards in place with the parents, to actually educate their kids.
Indiana tries to enforce rules and time limits, but like anything else many of these home schooled kids fall through the cracks.
Easier to check out a thousand public schools for real results than ten thousand home school families.

Are you against home schooling for religious reasons?

Tennesseer, I am sure there are some good families out there who home school for religious reasons.
I am sure there are some good families who are paranoid about government who home school.
I am sure there are lots of crazy families who home school due to race issues, Johnny gets picked on, etc.

Myself, I do not believe in home schooling, but know it it is here to stay. I do believe the state governments must be involved from the beginning and make sure some standards are being enforced and followed.
I firmly believe we have too many children being failed at home with home schooling, educationally wise as well as mental health wise.
I know from just looking at some of the families in my general area, who are home schooling, have no business in the educational process.
And I am a Libertarian Republican.
Crazy, huh?
I failed my beliefs.
Maybe I am a democrat. Or is it a Democratic?

[resolution]

Aug 13, 2015 18:31:58 GMT -5 @hickle said:

a combination of under-resourced schools, the loss of job protections, unfair teacher evaluation methods, an increase in the amount of mandated standardized testing and the loss of professional autonomy.

which of those are bad?
under resourced schools---sounds bad, but I do not know what it means.

the loss of job protections---- no one would want to fire a bad teacher if they are having trouble getting teachers, sounds as if they are firing bad teachers

increase in the amount of mandated standardized testing------I think that is probably bad.

the loss of professional autonomy--- not sure what that means, but I think it means the education system doesn't get to rule itself, that sounds good if that is what it means.

I can't answer for Indiana but my sister and SIL are teachers in states with similar issues.

Under resourced schools = teachers are using their own money to buy school supplies for their kids. My sister gets a tax credit to reimburse her for some of it but it never covers the whole expense.

Loss of job protections = a lot of a teacher's performance depends on the number of kids in their class with behavioral issues. If you only have a couple of disruptive kids it is a lot easier to perform than if you have 5 disruptive kids all acting out. My sister will look at her class roster as soon as it is announced and tell me whether her kids will test well or not, based on who is placed in her class. She does her best, but some kids behave badly enough that they are known throughout the school and teachers fight to keep them out of their classes. One year she got five of them and she was ready to quit but her principle got her to stay by promising her good kids the next year.

Mandated state testing = this results in them rewriting the curriculum every year so they can teach to the test, and a lot of times they will skip important lessons to teach something less important that will be tested.

Loss of professional autonomy = most of the time they can't do what is best for their class in their judgment. For example my sister has several kids that were labeled as having reading problems and she is required to spend a certain number of minutes one on one with each kid teaching reading. She has to have the rest of the class work independently on some assignment during the one on one time, so almost half of her class time is spent one on one with a few kids and the rest of her class is neglected. She has no say in this or in how she allocates time in the class.

[Tennesseer]

Aug 14, 2015 8:55:15 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Aug 14, 2015 8:45:45 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Are you against home schooling for religious reasons?

Tennesseer, I am sure there are some good families out there who home school for religious reasons.
I am sure there are some good families who are paranoid about government who home school.
I am sure there are lots of crazy families who home school due to race issues, Johnny gets picked on, etc.

Myself, I do not believe in home schooling, but know it it is here to stay. I do believe the state governments must be involved from the beginning and make sure some standards are being enforced and followed.
I firmly believe we have too many children being failed at home with home schooling, educationally wise as well as mental health wise.
I know from just looking at some of the families in my general area, who are home schooling, have no business in the educational process.
And I am a Libertarian Republican.
Crazy, huh?
I failed my beliefs.
Maybe I am a democrat. Or is it a Democratic?

So I understand your position, you are not in favor of home schooling in general for anyone.

[resolution]

I think parents should have to acquire some sort of certification to home school, just to show they have a basic understanding of the topics.

[Value Buy]

Tennesseer,

Home schooling goes across racial lines.We have many black families doing this as well as white families, although in the inner cities I can sort of understand why they might want to home school for safety reasons (gangs, etc) as well as religious reasons.
My problem is, are the "teachers" capable of educating the children properly, and setting the kids up to succeed in life.
Since the inner city schools suffer from so many issues, the kids being home schooled are more likely TO BEAT the low success rate of their schools they attend.

The area of the state where I live, most public schools suffer from some fund deficits, but most school districts vote and pass bond and tax increases to help the school systems, and most schools are highly rated in graduation and test scores.

We have many charter schools in our area also, and again, many have lay teachers and  even Principals who lack any "history" as Principals. Even in highly rate schools systems we see charter schools rising up.
The state of Indiana is now allowing vouchers to follow the child between districts and charter schools. 
This is taking money away from even the successful schools.
 I am not sure if this is a good thing in the long term.

[Deleted]

"Since the inner city schools suffer from so many issues, the kids being home schooled are more likely to match the low success rate of their schools they attend."

So.. your solution to schools that do not prepare parents to teach basic skills... is to have them send their own kids back to the same system that failed to teach them basic skills... ?

[Value Buy]

Aug 14, 2015 9:00:29 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Aug 14, 2015 8:55:15 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Tennesseer, I am sure there are some good families out there who home school for religious reasons.
I am sure there are some good families who are paranoid about government who home school.
I am sure there are lots of crazy families who home school due to race issues, Johnny gets picked on, etc.

Myself, I do not believe in home schooling, but know it it is here to stay. I do believe the state governments must be involved from the beginning and make sure some standards are being enforced and followed.
I firmly believe we have too many children being failed at home with home schooling, educationally wise as well as mental health wise.
I know from just looking at some of the families in my general area, who are home schooling, have no business in the educational process.
And I am a Libertarian Republican.
Crazy, huh?
I failed my beliefs.
Maybe I am a democrat. Or is it a Democratic?

So I understand your position, you are not in favor of home schooling in general for anyone.

Believe it or not, I am more concerned with this issue than abortion. Abortion is here to stay, and not going to change.
I know some home schooled children are for the better, and get an excellent education. I guess I want more state scrutiny of the group as a whole. I believe if we see generations of home schooled children in general, we will lower education of the masses in the decades coming forward. There is also the issue of mental problems for children who are off the charts, who are home schooled becaus mother says they are misunderstood, as far as getting along with others. They will fall through the cracks, until they do something dramatically wrong.

God, I am not a Republican!!
Or a Libertarian..........

[Value Buy]

Aug 14, 2015 9:16:09 GMT -5 oped said:

"Since the inner city schools suffer from so many issues, the kids being home schooled are more likely to match the low success rate of their schools they attend."

So.. your solution to schools that do not prepare parents to teach basic skills... is to have them send their own kids back to the same system that failed to teach them basic skills... ?

I should have said, they are more likely to BEAT the low success rate.
I will go back and edit.
TY

[Deleted]

Homeschooling is here to stay as well. I'm not even sure how many members I have in group right now, there have been new people joining like every other day... Field trips go on the board and the next day 40 people are signed up already. We've had to schedule 3 separate tours of the 911 center, to accommodate the group size to date... I think there are 70 signed up for that one so far. Pushing 100 for our Not Back to School Picnic, 50 for our first Books and Bowling...

[Deleted]

So, if they beat the low success rate of the schools... Isn't it better for them to be homeschooled. AND, homeschooling is about so much more than a few scores, so given that and beating the scores...

[Value Buy]

Aug 14, 2015 9:27:15 GMT -5 oped said:

So, if they beat the low success rate of the schools... Isn't it better for them to be homeschooled. AND, homeschooling is about so much more than a few scores, so given that and beating the scores...

I have stated there are successful home schooling stories.
I also know there are some horrible unsuccessful ones.
The state has to be diligent in weeding these out.
Unfortunately we all know 99% of these that would be stopped would wind up with a lawsuit preventing them from being stopped.

Maybe Indiana is not representative of home schooling in general.
I do not know.
I do know I feel the negative out weighs the positives in my state right now.

[Deleted]

I do think it makes a difference state to state. And I actually am for regulations. PA where we are is considered a 'red' state because we have 'so many regulations'... but I have never found them onerous and feel they also protect children. I have not been a fan of recent moves to reduce our regulations. Particularly since the new law places more accountability on me as an evaluator (in PA you need an annual certified teacher evaluation, and I do those for quite a few families).

When I am evaluating, I don't compare every child to the ideal of a top tier public school educated accepted to engineering school student though. I look at each kid and where they are, their likely potential and the gains they've made (GLOBAL gains, not just in the three standardized tested subjects) and compare that to the average child with those characteristics in the district they would be in otherwise... I have yet to find any situation in which I think the parent is doing exceedingly worse than what the education the child would have received in public school.

[Angel!]

Aug 14, 2015 9:38:57 GMT -5 oped said:

I do think it makes a difference state to state. And I actually am for regulations. PA where we are is considered a 'red' state because we have 'so many regulations'... but I have never found them onerous and feel they also protect children. I have not been a fan of recent moves to reduce our regulations. Particularly since the new law places more accountability on me as an evaluator (in PA you need an annual certified teacher evaluation, and I do those for quite a few families).

When I am evaluating, I don't compare every child to the ideal of a top tier public school educated accepted to engineering school student though. I look at each kid and where they are, their likely potential and the gains they've made (GLOBAL gains, not just in the three standardized tested subjects) and compare that to the average child with those characteristics in the district they would be in otherwise... I have yet to find any situation in which I think the parent is doing exceedingly worse than what the education the child would have received in public school.

Don't many choose to home school so they don't have to teach certain subjects - evolution, big bang, etc?

That is the only issue I have with homeschooling. If you think you can do a better job than other schools have at it, but don't do it because you want to avoid teaching your kid accepted science.

[Deleted]

Yes, that is true. You have to teach science. But you don't have to teach Evolution or Big Bang. You can teach Young Earth. However, if they were in school, their parents would tell them to ignore that information anyway.

Oh I've had some good evolution debates. In some cases I feel like I do at least do some good by shooting down existing misinformation (ie. no. evolution does not say there is no god and we evolved from monkeys...) ... But mostly I just get told I'm trying to change people's opinions and that my 'theories' are smoke and mirrors etc.... and those people, would not be thinking any differently if their kids were in public schools... NOTHING is changing the minds of that set.  After all, a good many of them WERE public schooled, and still maintain that view themselves...

[zibazinski]

If home schooled students can pass the basic stuff that each grade level are supposed to know, then I'm all for it. I'd probably homeschool my kids now or a lot of online/virtual school stuff because the never ending testing is ridiculous plus the behavior issues in schools is nonsense as well. Keep your kids home until you civilize them should be the mantra of all school systems. If parents were stuck with their kids at home because of their behavior, you can bet the parents would start parenting/disciplining their little angels.

[ken a.k.a OMK]

The basic legal requirements in Maryland are that you need to first file your homeschool affidavit. After that, the state coordinator for your area will contact you to talk about portfolio requirements and to let you know what is next. You meet two to three times during the year just to let them take a look at what you have been doing. You need to touch on each required subject, but in your own way.

I believe the children are missing out on contact with other children. Also not joining clubs or playing sports.

I have a neighbor who home schooled for the early years. She would take them on more learning trips then a child in a traditional school would get. Then they enrolled in a public school in time to join clubs and play sports.