Teachers fleeing Indiana ... Republican policies

[Deleted]

Ken, the socialization myth has been widely discredited. Homeschool kids in general have more opportunities to interact with people of all ages and form friendships and pursue interests than public school led kids.

[zibazinski]

There's a fair amount of kids in school I wouldn't want my kids having anything to do with. 

[zibazinski]

You can play sports and join clubs even if you're homeschooled. 

[swamp]

Aug 14, 2015 11:09:21 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Aug 14, 2015 9:38:57 GMT -5 oped said:

I do think it makes a difference state to state. And I actually am for regulations. PA where we are is considered a 'red' state because we have 'so many regulations'... but I have never found them onerous and feel they also protect children. I have not been a fan of recent moves to reduce our regulations. Particularly since the new law places more accountability on me as an evaluator (in PA you need an annual certified teacher evaluation, and I do those for quite a few families).

When I am evaluating, I don't compare every child to the ideal of a top tier public school educated accepted to engineering school student though. I look at each kid and where they are, their likely potential and the gains they've made (GLOBAL gains, not just in the three standardized tested subjects) and compare that to the average child with those characteristics in the district they would be in otherwise... I have yet to find any situation in which I think the parent is doing exceedingly worse than what the education the child would have received in public school.

Don't many choose to home school so they don't have to teach certain subjects - evolution, big bang, etc?

That is the only issue I have with homeschooling. If you think you can do a better job than other schools have at it, but don't do it because you want to avoid teaching your kid accepted science.

Unfortunately, most of the homeschoolers around here are religious whackadoodles who don't want their kids exposed to people with different ideas and ways of life.   They get crappy educations.

[The Captain]

Aug 14, 2015 13:43:53 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

Aug 14, 2015 9:38:57 GMT -5 oped said:

When I am evaluating, I don't compare every child to the ideal of a top tier public school educated accepted to engineering school student though. I look at each kid and where they are, their likely potential and the gains they've made (GLOBAL gains, not just in the three standardized tested subjects) and compare that to the average child with those characteristics in the district they would be in otherwise... I have yet to find any situation in which I think the parent is doing exceedingly worse than what the education the child would have received in public school.

Given you're disdain for public school in general that's not surprising at all. Let's imagine I despise broccoli. I compare all food I ever eat to broccoli. It's always better than broccoli. Does that mean it's good, or does that mean I really hate broccoli? You do the same thing when evaluating these kids. Having a pro home school public education hater evaluate home schooled kids and use are they getting a better education than I think they would get in public school as the criteria is all kinds of biased. 

I love you, and you normally provide a lot of good info on home schooling, but in this instance I had to point it out. Home schooled kids should be evaluated the exact same way that public school kids are. Exact same standardized tests. It's the only way to compare apples to apples and take the bias out of it.

See to me this is the exact reason why I think the current NCLB model is a failure. Not every kid learns the same way or at the same pace. I get that. However the current model is forcing the teachers to make all the pegs fit in the same round hole regardless if that's not how the child will learn the most.

FWIW you can say home schoolers are biased or not as thorough as standard schools, but the truth is home schooled kids (at least the ones that apply to college) graduate at higher rates in fewer years than non-home schooled kids. Do some research - the STATS are compelling for individual learning.

Now none of this addresses the wackadoodles, but I think if a kid can have a custom tailored learning plan, then awesome! I'm also realistic enough to know that's not possible in the public education systems which is why DH and I supplement DD's curriculum.

I'm seriously fortunate at this point to say if DD was having problems in school then we could afford to have DH homeschool her.  I also think between the two of us (him mostly) she'd get a solid education.  Fortunately she is thriving at her new school (knocks on wood!)

People, IMHO - have a right to the option.

[Deleted]

I don't have a disdain for public school in general. In fact, I'm the first one to suggest that we need them. They are a great choice for many families. I am in no way a public education hater. I am a public education realist however. I don't think its mandatory for everyone to choose to go, I don't think it solves all ills. I understand that the public system also has problems, and by its nature limitations. 

Yes I am pro homeschool. I am not a public education hater. I have a good relationship with schools around here. The criteria I use are, are they making adequate progress in an appropriate learning environment which is at least equal to what they would likely receive/demonstrate in public school.  

I do look at standardized test scores when they are required Dark. I don't expect all kids to ace them though... they wouldn't do that in public school either. I also don't think that the only skills worth learning in this world are ones that can be accurately measured on a Math/Language fill in the bubble test.

Are you suggesting the only thing that should go in to an evaluation of education is 2-3 standardized test scores? That there is nothing else that matters in the evaluation of the quality or breadth of one's education? 

[swamp]

Aug 14, 2015 12:17:32 GMT -5 oped said:

Ken, the socialization myth has been widely discredited. Homeschool kids in general have more opportunities to interact with people of all ages and form friendships and pursue interests than public school led kids.

depends on the kid.

I've seen some homeschool kids who are very active in sports, clubs, and have lots of friends.

I've seen some that aren't allowed to hang out with anyone outside their homeschool clique and aren't allowed to participate in any activiites with the heathen kids.

[swamp]

Aug 14, 2015 13:59:03 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Aug 14, 2015 13:43:53 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

Given you're disdain for public school in general that's not surprising at all. Let's imagine I despise broccoli. I compare all food I ever eat to broccoli. It's always better than broccoli. Does that mean it's good, or does that mean I really hate broccoli? You do the same thing when evaluating these kids. Having a pro home school public education hater evaluate home schooled kids and use are they getting a better education than I think they would get in public school as the criteria is all kinds of biased. 

I love you, and you normally provide a lot of good info on home schooling, but in this instance I had to point it out. Home schooled kids should be evaluated the exact same way that public school kids are. Exact same standardized tests. It's the only way to compare apples to apples and take the bias out of it.

See to me this is the exact reason why I think the current NCLB model is a failure. Not every kid learns the same way or at the same pace. I get that. However the current model is forcing the teachers to make all the pegs fit in the same round hole regardless if that's not how the child will learn the most.

FWIW you can say home schoolers are biased or not as thorough as standard schools, but the truth is home schooled kids (at least the ones that apply to college) graduate at higher rates in fewer years than non-home schooled kids. Do some research - the STATS are compelling for individual learning.

Now none of this addresses the wackadoodles, but I think if a kid can have a custom tailored learning plan, then awesome! I'm also realistic enough to know that's not possible in the public education systems which is why DH and I supplement DD's curriculum.

I'm seriously fortunate at this point to say if DD was having problems in school then we could afford to have DH homeschool her.  I also think between the two of us (him mostly) she'd get a solid education.  Fortunately she is thriving at her new school (knocks on wood!)

People, IMHO - have a right to the option.

you're absolutely correct that the right to the option should be there.  However, I do worry about some of the kids that are being taught by barely literate parents.  

Oped is obviously very bright, very well educated, and takes her role as an educator very seriously.  Not all homeschoolers do, and unfortunately, most that I see are getting deficient educations.

For example, I'm pretty sure Michelle Duggar has no business homeschooling her kids since she doesn't appear to be well educated herself, and defaults to the "god said so" for all her reasoning.

[The Captain]

Aug 14, 2015 14:11:44 GMT -5 swamp said:

Aug 14, 2015 13:59:03 GMT -5 The Captain said:

People, IMHO - have a right to the option.

you're absolutely correct that the right to the option should be there.  However, I do worry about some of the kids that are being taught by barely literate parents.  

Oped is obviously very bright, very well educated, and takes her role as an educator very seriously.  Not all homeschoolers do, and unfortunately, most that I see are getting deficient educations.

For example, I'm pretty sure Michelle Duggar has no business homeschooling her kids since she doesn't appear to be well educated herself, and defaults to the "god said so" for all her reasoning.

I worry about some of the kids as well and agree with the premise that there should be some type of accreditation for the parent.

From the sound of it, you have more that homeschool for religious reasons in your area than do I.  Urban areas tend to be more liberal and the homeschoolers that I know, do so because their kids were not doing well in the public system for a variety of reasons.

That being said, I've seen interviews with CPS teachers and am not convinced they are any more qualified to teach than your example above.  

[Deleted]

I taught elementary middle and high school special ed in public schools. I have a BS in Spec Ed and MS in Ed Development.

[Deleted]

When the public schools start getting all the kids to score proficient or above on those tests, you might have an argument.

[Deleted]

First, I must have a post waiting on my computer at home I didn't post before I left. I'll post it when I get home.

Second. Most states don't even have evaluations. And some of the people in my group have found evaluators who skirt the letter of the law by essentially not having them abide by required regs (why I said I probably don't see anyone who might be providing less than adequate... But that might be in my missing post...) so I'm sure others do that as well. I think I provide a very balanced review and recommendations.

I think it would be difficult to find people with a teaching degree that neither teach in public school nor homeschool to be evaluators. I think having exprerience at both actually makes me pretty effective in the role.

I've actually been thinking of getting my math credd to go back to teaching after my kids are launched, although I'm not sure yet. But it's not at all hard to find people who have experience with both. We have several certified teachers in out groups, two professors, my elementary principal homeschooled his kids and my current district superintendent did as well. We actually have a growing, working relationship with most districts in the area. Many of them are, or are converting to blended programming,

[Deleted]

Also wanted to say we used to have to hand portfolios and evaluator letters and test scores (3,5,8) into the district as well ... That changed last year and now it's just evaluator letter. I don't like the change. I liked joint accountability better. I did make some cganges to my evaluation process because of this.

[Deleted]

Aug 14, 2015 14:08:09 GMT -5 swamp said:

Aug 14, 2015 12:17:32 GMT -5 oped said:

Ken, the socialization myth has been widely discredited. Homeschool kids in general have more opportunities to interact with people of all ages and form friendships and pursue interests than public school led kids.

depends on the kid.

I've seen some homeschool kids who are very active in sports, clubs, and have lots of friends.

I've seen some that aren't allowed to hang out with anyone outside their homeschool clique and aren't allowed to participate in any activiites with the heathen kids.

Agreed. That's why I said in general. It definitely isn't universal.

I also agree that homeschooling isn't right for everyone. I also like the regulations we have and think there should be regulations and oversight. Its also very possible that I don't run in to a lot of people who I don't think are providing an appropriate education/ demonstrating adequate progress, because I am NOT a hands off evaluator. I do want to see everything the law requires and even require some things the law doesn't if they want to use me as an evaluator.

This is the post I started earlier and didn't post... not as much there as I thought, lol.

Oh well, sorry I hijacked, but guess we haven't done the homeschooling thing in awhile.

I'm not sure why what you said bothered me so much Dark, except I don't think of myself as so vehement anti public school. I don't think just because you like to empower people with the idea that they can homeschool if they choose to... means you have to hate all public school. I rather see myself as a bridge, but oh well...  

[Opti]

Aug 14, 2015 8:43:04 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Aug 13, 2015 13:15:46 GMT -5 Opti said:

www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2015/08/13/indianas-got-a-problem-too-many-teachers-dont-want-to-work-there-anymore/

Indiana’s got a problem: Teachers increasingly don’t want to work in the state anymore. The problem has become so acute that some school districts have have had a hard time finding enough teachers to cover classes for the new school year — and some lawmakers want a legislative committee to discuss the shortage.

The percentage of all teachers getting a teaching license — including veterans — fell by more than 50 percent from 2009-10 to 2013-14 — and there was an 18.5 percent decline in the number of licenses issued to new teachers during the same period, according to Indiana Department of Education figures.

The Muncie Star-Press reported in December 2014 that enrollment in the program to train kindergarten and elementary school teachers fell by 45 percent over the previous decade.

What’s going on? Pretty much the same thing as in Arizona, Kansas and other states where teachers are fleeing: a combination of under-resourced schools, the loss of job protections, unfair teacher evaluation methods, an increase in the amount of mandated standardized testing and the loss of professional autonomy.

According to the Indianapolis Star, the Republican chairmen of the House and Senate education committees have asked General Assembly leaders to approve having the legislative education study committee review what is causing the drop and how the state could respond.

For one thing, they can look in the mirror. The Republican leadership of the state — including Gov. Mike Pence — showed their respect for teachers by working very hard this year to strip power from Indiana Superintendent of Public Instruction Glenda Ritz, a veteran educator who won election to the post in 2012 (by defeating Tony Bennett, the incumbent who was a protege of former Florida governor Jeb Bush). Oh, by the way, she is a Democrat. David Long, the Republican president of the Indiana Senate, said while explaining why the legislature would want to remove Ritz as chairman of the state Board of Education: “In all fairness, Superintendent Ritz was a librarian, okay?”

How about an article on Illinois, and Chicago.
How many schools have they closed so far and how many will be closed in the next two years?
Chicago just announced the latest round of letting go hundreds of teachers, due to money cutbacks and lack of students.

Why would I want to post an article on Illinois or Chicago?

I posted this because I found it interesting and I was unaware it was that bad. It interests me personally, unlike Illinois, and my alma mater in Indiana had sent out an email blast in the last 6 months about teacher programs. There was a requirement I think to teach in Indiana for 5 years. I did make one call about it, but haven't followed up since. Now... since reading the article, it makes me think this is not a great possibility even though I know someone with my same Bachelor's degree who is teaching HS Math, or MS. Don't remember.

[swamp]

Aug 15, 2015 6:47:19 GMT -5 Ratchets said:

Aug 14, 2015 14:08:09 GMT -5 swamp said:

depends on the kid.

I've seen some homeschool kids who are very active in sports, clubs, and have lots of friends.

I've seen some that aren't allowed to hang out with anyone outside their homeschool clique and aren't allowed to participate in any activiites with the heathen kids.

Have you seen public schooled kids that aren't allowed to hang out with anyone outside of their public school clique and aren't allowed to participate in any activities with the heathen kids?

Yes. 

[zibazinski]

Same here. I made sure my kids socially hung out with kids I approved of. I couldn't prevent what they had contact with during the school day.

[Deleted]

I think blended programs will become more popular as time goes by...

I do encourage homeschool when someone brings it up. I generally assume they have plenty of people discouraging them, so I like to be the advocate. It is like mission to me. That people who WANT to do it, feel supported in the decision and competent to try. I feel like that 'side' doesn't have as many proponents as the other.

While I don't think home is always best/better. There are inherent benefits to one on one and individualized curriculum and methods options that can mitigate a lot of other issues and equalize choices.

My other 'mission' is get books in the hands of kids. I do invest a lot in both I guess, but more verbiage to homeschooling

[zibazinski]

If I had it to do over again, I'd probably home school or private school until they got to middle or high. They start separating them due to abilities then. Elementary was okay for DS although he complained about what ended up being an entire school year wasted by the 6 weeks review every start of the school year. I'd like a do over for that wasted time. But the system hadn't started teaching to the almighty test yet so things were fairly okay. DD was thrown into the great social experiment of everyone in the classroom regardless if they could handle it or not. A lot could not so it was pretty chaotic so parents tried to get their kids away from as many as possible "problems " which meant jockeying for the primo teachers who made sure they didn't get very many of those problems. But then you had the pressure of the almighty FCAT. I'm all for tests being used as a learning tool. DS had the CTBS. It showed the teacher what you knew and what you didn't so they knew your strengths and weaknesses. But it wasn't used to penalize a school or a teacher. They still test kids to death and use it to F with schools and teachers, but at least in my old school system, you could avoid a lot of issues after elementary school. I hated seeing kids in K cry about hating school. The joy of learning has been sucked away as well as the joy of teaching.

[zibazinski]

No, not really. It used to be kinda cute and fun. There was some play time and nap time and some learning as well. Now they're making them write among other things. Besides PE they get 2 ten minute recesses. I'd cry too if that was my life at 5

[Angel!]

Aug 15, 2015 7:10:31 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

If I had it to do over again, I'd probably home school or private school until they got to middle or high. They start separating them due to abilities then.

That's unfortunate you ES didn't separate by abilities. Ours does starting in 1st and by 2nd they pull out the advanced kids to work with the g&t teacher. They also still give K a rest time. I don't remember time on playground though, but 10 min doesn't sound right.

[zibazinski]

It used to be 30 morning playground time then 30 PE then 30 afternoon playground time. PTA even fund raised and built a special playground just for K.   So an hour and a half at least of outdoor time. The school district we live in now in Michigan has such high property and school taxes that it does get some of the problems resolved because you sure wouldn't sacrifice to live here if you weren't into education.