Are we more racially and ethically divided today?

[Deleted]

Greta Van Susteren
Yesterday at 8:04am · Edited ·
Why don't we try something new?
The nation is - or at least it seems so to me - terribly divided. Everyone has picked a group - whether it be by gender or ethnic background, etc. - and placed a stake in the ground. When this happens, people divide, not unite. This is taking sides, not joining together and you know what happens when people just take sides.
Why don't we go back to the old concept of America being a melting pot and all of us being Americans with first emphasis on common goals, and not what makes each of us different from our neighbors or co-workers or even people we meet on the street. That does not mean we can't celebrate ethnic backgrounds or groups - that is fun to do - but it changes our priorities from taking sides to working together.
Let's make today 'ground zero' of working together and give up grudges from yesterday. Let's help each other and make it rewarding to do so. OK, yes, I know...I am dreaming.

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Discuss...

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Why don't we go back to the old concept of America being a melting pot and all of us being Americans with first emphasis on common goals, and not what makes each of us different from our neighbors or co-workers or even people we meet on the street

I don't think America has ever been that way.  There has always been xenophobia in our midst and "us vs them" mentalities.    Eugenetics wouldn't have ever gotten a foothold if America had been the land of holding hands and sharing a Coke.  

It wasn't until 1920 that women could vote in this country for pete's sake.  

I know it's historical fiction but we're watching Hell on Wheels right now.  It's gotten to California and is addressing the railroad being built by the Chinese.   It's the same discussion being had about illegal immigrants today.    Immigration has always been a hot topic in this country, especially during times of change/strife.   Not a whole lot has changed if you look at history, it's just the players involved change over time.

Once it was the Chinese, then Irish Americans, now Mexicans, tomorrow who knows.   The melting pot idea is a wonderful piece of ideology/folklore but America never really has been a true "melting pot" where everyone gets along and celebrates differences instead of dividing along them.

[zibazinski]

 I think we don't have a melting pot anymore. People come from other countries but want to maintain the culture they left behind. My feeling is stay there if that's the case. My dad and his siblings learned English and embraced this country. Others don't feel the need and they bring the feelings with them. The angers me more than the freeloading.

[zibazinski]

Aug 3, 2015 8:52:24 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Why don't we go back to the old concept of America being a melting pot and all of us being Americans with first emphasis on common goals, and not what makes each of us different from our neighbors or co-workers or even people we meet on the street

I don't think America has ever been that way.  There has always been xenophobia in our midst and "us vs them" mentalities.    Eugenetics wouldn't have ever gotten a foothold if America had been the land of holding hands and sharing a Coke.  

It wasn't until 1920 that women could vote in this country for pete's sake. 


Eugenics? You mean sterlizing people who cannot make decisions for themselves or take care of themselves?

[Phoenix84]

I think things are better now than they have been.

I'm not sure where the woman linked in the OP got the idea that America was once a land of holding hands and singing Koumbyah.

But Zib has a point, in different times, immigrants made the effort to learn English and integrate into society.  Now it seems many want society to cater to them.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Eugenics? You mean sterlizing people who cannot make decisions for themselves or take care of themselves?

Eugenics was also a proposed solution to the 'immigrant" problem.   People feared that all those people coming over from other countries would keep having more and more kids, eventually crowding out "rightful" American citizens.   Eugenics was seen as a way to control that issue.   It just so happened a large portion of the lower class happened to be immigrants from other countries so win win.

[zibazinski]

Did it happen?

[billisonboard]

I think that the history of ethnic enclaves in American cities is a good indicator of the degree we ever were a "melting pot".

[MJ2.0]

I don't think it has to be either/or. I think you can learn the common language and customs but still celebrate the culture of your former country. I see things around like Russian/Ukranian/Hebrew clubs/centers/etc. for what I assume are cultural events and gatherings. The Eastern Europeans I've encountered still speak English and know the American way of doing things.

but DQ is right - we've ostracized any group that comes here and doesn't go to Ellis Island, change their name to Joe Smith, and fly 25 American flags at their homes or places of business.  We've also had a long history of ostracizing groups that were here long before the settlers came and people they brought here against their will.

[MJ2.0]

Aug 3, 2015 9:25:48 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Aug 3, 2015 9:19:33 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

I don't think it has to be either/or. I think you can learn the common language and customs but still celebrate the culture of your former country. I see things around like Russian/Ukranian/Hebrew clubs/centers/etc. for what I assume are cultural events and gatherings. The Eastern Europeans I've encountered still speak English and know the American way of doing things.

but DQ is right - we've ostracized any group that comes here and doesn't go to Ellis Island, change their name to Joe Smith, and fly 25 American flags at their homes or places of business.  We've also had a long history of ostracizing groups that were here long before the settlers came and people they brought here against their will.

I don't think it's just racially based.   I see groups every day that identify more with their 'sub' group than they do as being American.  

I didn't say it was just racially based - I think my first paragraph proves that.

[Deleted]

Aug 3, 2015 9:23:49 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

In one of my college classes .. I can't remember which one it was..   We were talking about about the symbolism in American culture.  One of the things that was said that the founding fathers did not intend the word "God" to mean the Christian God, but instead a higher entity.   They did this purposely because they knew they need to quickly get some symbols out there to unify the country and to bring people together under a set of patriotic thinking.   They wanted the flag, anthem/songs, characters/heroes, money, etc  to reinforce the new country and ideals and they came up with ways that worked.  A pseudo religious movement was created... but instead of religious icons and songs,  they used patriotic.   

The question is now... are we rejecting the 'American Religion'? 

I'm probably wording this very badly, but it was an interesting discussion and one that I think is still relevant. 

There has been a really big shift in my lifetime from the majority rule in this country to the minority rule.   People are more willing to identify themselves with their smaller groups than they are with Americans as whole.   While I think there was and still is the self-segregating enclaves (love the use of this word here),  I think there was more American Patriotism within those groups. 

Is that true? Or is it just that minority groups are now allowed equal rights and opportunitiypes that were to varying degrees denied them in the past...? 

[MJ2.0]

I think that tends to happen because even though we know America is a country made up of many ethnicities and racial groups, we still have this image of a tall, broad-shouldered blond-haired, blue-eyed, English-speaking heterosexual man as the pinnacle of being American.

[Deleted]

It's easy to say there is no divide. If you are the majority and can ignore the minority. I posted a link when we were debating the gay marriage issue where someone said, basically, if we argue, and you walk away from the debate with full rights and I do not, then that is not a mutual disagreement. 

So, I guess I can see how groups who historically have not had to actually deal with disparity might think we are more divided today because they actipually have to attend to and deal with the divide... Could that be it? 

Is the media contributing to the feelings that we are more divided? 

[Deleted]

Are you suggested a shared isolation and similar plight would cause groups to disperse rather than bind more together...? 

Its once everyone has has the same rights and opportunities that I think tjose differences fade away.

[Deleted]

I have friends who think the divide is greater than when they were kids. But I have to question how much of that is that they were isolated to contact with only like minded, political, racially and ethically, and religious beliefs, etc. They saw no divide because they only socialized with people 'like them'. 

Todays globalism ism makes that kind of isolation more difficult. 

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

At the risk of going off on a tangent, I am more troubled by the way we have all retreated into our own homes -- a more real and personal divide.

Drive through your town -- are kids playing in the yards?  Are they playing with a bunch of kids of varying ages from the neighborhood?  Or, if they are playing, are they playing with a carefully selected group of friends whose parents mirror your own values and beliefs?

Do you know all of your neighbors' names?

Do you socialize with your neighbors?

Can you trust and rely on your neighbors for help or to simply take in your mail while you are away?

Do you jump in and help your neighbors -- lending tools, cat-sitting, emergency contact for their children's school?

Do you know which neighbors are ill/lonely/struggling?  

Do you look beyond surface beauty (size of home; make, model, and year of car; vacations; etc.) to see the real people living on your street?

I personally think that we've segregated from each other at such a personal level (due to the lure of television, video games, the internet, KUWJ), and that that divide is so real and so threatening, that racism/ethnic origin/religious faith/socioeconomic level become excuses for a lack of personal connection.

JMHO.  YMMV.

 

[bean29]

A lot of you seem to be pointing the finger at other groups and saying they are insular and isolated themselves, but I really have to wonder who your neighbors and co-workers are.

I Live in an affluent suburb.  My neighbors on one side she is an immigrant from Poland, he is Polish but I think he was born a citizen.  Her Mother and her step father live with them.  She has a brother in France.  She told me yesterday she has no one left in Poland.  The guy that fixed my car last week is also an Immigrant from Poland.  He is a naturalized citizen.  His sister is in Canada.  DD's friend is Indian (India or Pakistan, not sure which) She has an Uncle in Canada and an Uncle in Germany.  Her Mother was Born here.  DH's best friend has a wife from Poland.  Her parents travel back and forth.  She has a brother still in Poland, IDK what he does, but I think her family was middle class on the upper side, but not ever really well off.  I also have a neighbor across the street that is an immigrant from Somewhere in Africa.  We have neighbors a block over and down the street from Armenia.  We know many people from Mexico, both family and clients and co-workers.  I know only a small fraction who intend to go back to Mexico to live (2).  DH says quite a few go back for the Christmas Holidays though (Double whammy of the holiday and more temperate winter climate).

If I have talked to them, you better believe they speak English, b/c I only have minimal understanding of Spanish.  My Brand new Indian neighbors had a huge party this weekend, initially I thought it was a housewarming party,  but we have quite a few Indian neighbors and then I realized that many of them seemed to have company.  It was the anniversary of the Sikh Temple shooting and they had a run/walk and probably a service to commemorate the trajedy.  I saw license plates from IL, FL, Canada etc.  When groups have a common religion, do you think they should only worship the country they living in as "god".  It sounds ludicrous to me.  My neighbor from Africa also worships with people that share his belief system...I can guarantee not all live in our suburb b/c we do not have that many people that share his race in our suburb...but we have been invited to celebrations at his house and the people are very welcoming.  I will uphold their right to practice their religion as they see fit, any way I can.  This group seems educated and I know they push their children to succeed in school.  I know just like us, they do not always succeed.  DD's friends brother was not a good student and ended up finishing at an alternative HS.

My husband makes such an effort with my Neighbors Polish speaking Mother and Step Father, b/c they don't speak English.  My In-laws do the same.  They all treat each other with such obvious respect and have such joy when the greet each other.  DH will offer a Drink, or a plant (have the neighbor lady raspberry bushes last week).  I think the world would be a better place if many Americans just assumed that those that they see speaking another language are here legally and they are bilingual rather than that they are here illegally and they don't speak any English.  I consider my inlaws English to be very good, but they always talk Spanish if there is not an English speaker present.  My FIL still translates many words for my MIL although I consider her English to be very good.  I only wish for them to have a translator for legal, financial and medical issues. 

This is the only country in the world where we expect people to speak only one language and don't encourage people to be multilingual.  Get over yourselves.  If those kids are in school in the US they are learning English and expecting them not to speak the language of their homeland serves no purpose.  It may someday give them an advantage.  It may someday give the US an advantage to have many people fluent in languages of the world.  We should encourage multilingualism not discourage it. 

[NancysSummerSip]

Aug 3, 2015 8:54:46 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

 I think we don't have a melting pot anymore. People come from other countries but want to maintain the culture they left behind. My feeling is stay there if that's the case. My dad and his siblings learned English and embraced this country. Others don't feel the need and they bring the feelings with them. The angers me more than the freeloading.

I think there is some truth to this. My grandparents and great-grandparents came here and learned English and American customs by enrolling in night school, reading newspapers and practicing their newfound skills while working. None of them waited for the government to print literature in Yiddish, Romanian, Hungarian or Russian (their native languages), though they did still read books and pray in those languages when they got homesick for it. They still cooked dishes from the old country, using what they found here, mixed with new food. In their case, it was a melting pot, but it was one born of a combination of desire, necessity and adaptation.

Today, it's different. I don't honestly have an issue with people keeping up with their native language or culture. In fact, I rather enjoy it. I don't want everyone to be the same. But asking your new home country to cater to your needs not only isn't cool, it's expensive to the public purse. Our previous generations got a hand up, no question. But there's a line between a hand up and a hand out.

Insisting that all government material be printed in multiple languages is a hand out to me, and not a cheap one. I know English is one of the harder languages to learn, but you are not the first to tackle it.

Insisting that the public school system accommodate you because of your foreign birth is a hand out. Money spend that way robs other kids. Our ancestors and their kids fell into the public school system and survived; you can, too.

Insisting that your lack of language skills and newcomer status is the handicap that prevents you from working (and makes you deserving of free social services) robs others who are elderly, ill and truly needy. If you are as able-bodies as my people were, you do what they did - you labor and get educated and life does get better.


ETA: After reading Bean29's post, I have to add that I agree with the sentiment about Americans becoming more diverse in terms of our language skills. We should not run from learning another language. But I also believe that newcomers should not run from learning ours.

[honeysalt]

There are people who enjoy difference and want to give it the space to live and flourish.

There are also people who say they celebrate difference, but really the just want those who are different to conform to dominant culture.

I think we have more space for difference than we have ever had before, and it makes some people uncomfortable, so they talk about how divided we are in an effort to pressure those who are different to conform.

There is a big trend towards this within the queer community right now.  A lot of people inside and outside of the community have the message that we are just like straight people.  No doubt, some of us want a hetero-normative life in the suburbs with kids.  No doubt, many of us want an entirely different lifestyle.  I am not just like straight people, nor do I want to be.  Most of the gay people I know are not, but most of us do want access to the power and privilege afforded by being accepted in dominant culture.  Right now, being accepted by dominant culture is possible, which is an improvement, but it still requires a lot of conforming, which is changing. 

There are a lot of people in their teens and twenties today that have a wildly different view on race, gender, and sexuality.  They will likely get more conservative with age, but will likely never be as socially conservative as the people in power today.  I can understand why that makes some of the people in power today a little nervous. 

[Deleted]

Aug 3, 2015 10:22:31 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

At the risk of going off on a tangent, I am more troubled by the way we have all retreated into our own homes -- a more real and personal divide.

Drive through your town -- are kids playing in the yards?  Are they playing with a bunch of kids of varying ages from the neighborhood?  Or, if they are playing, are they playing with a carefully selected group of friends whose parents mirror your own values and beliefs?

Do you know all of your neighbors' names?

Do you socialize with your neighbors?

Can you trust and rely on your neighbors for help or to simply take in your mail while you are away?

Do you jump in and help your neighbors -- lending tools, cat-sitting, emergency contact for their children's school?

Do you know which neighbors are ill/lonely/struggling?  

Do you look beyond surface beauty (size of home; make, model, and year of car; vacations; etc.) to see the real people living on your street?

I personally think that we've segregated from each other at such a personal level (due to the lure of television, video games, the internet, KUWJ), and that that divide is so real and so threatening, that racism/ethnic origin/religious faith/socioeconomic level become excuses for a lack of personal connection.

JMHO.  YMMV.

 

Ok. I see this. But I also wonder if our neighborhoods used to be more segregated in nature by values and beliefs? 

I have read read that in addition to 'news' media being polarized, that with so many entertainment avenues, we can now just watch 'black' or 'women's' etc TV etc programming which also influences the divide. 

But at at the same time we can expose ourselves to so much more! Is it that we just don't choose to? 

[happyhoix]

Aug 3, 2015 9:03:52 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Did it happen?

Yes, there were cases where people deemed 'mentally deficient' were sterilized so they wouldn't spread their 'bad genes' to other generations.

Poor people, colored people, mentally challenged people. Charles Lindbergh was a big fan of it, it was one of the reasons that he supported Hitler (who also was a big proponent of racial purity). With WWII and the whole Nazi death camp thing it kind of squashed the whole eugenics idea.  

www.nytimes.com/2011/12/10/us/redress-weighed-for-forced-sterilizations-in-north-carolina.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[Tennesseer]

As a side note, it is so much easier today to stay in touch with the old country because we have the Internet.  In days of old, once immigrants left the home country, many often never returned or had contact with family and friends ever again.  So assimilation was a must to survive.

The same holds true with transportation.  Travel back to the old country is so much easier today for folks than it was 50-100 years ago.  Travelling back 'home' often reinforces local customs.  

[Deleted]

Sroo, is there a lot of diversity in your neighborhood? Racial, ethnic, political, family construction, ? Just curious. 

[bean29]

Aug 3, 2015 10:33:17 GMT -5 NancysSummerSip said:

Aug 3, 2015 8:54:46 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

 I think we don't have a melting pot anymore. People come from other countries but want to maintain the culture they left behind. My feeling is stay there if that's the case. My dad and his siblings learned English and embraced this country. Others don't feel the need and they bring the feelings with them. The angers me more than the freeloading.

I think there is some truth to this. My grandparents and great-grandparents came here and learned English and American customs by enrolling in night school, reading newspapers and practicing their newfound skills while working. None of them waited for the government to print literature in Yiddish, Romanian, Hungarian or Russian (their native languages), though they did still read books and pray in those languages when they got homesick for it. They still cooked dishes from the old country, using what they found here, mixed with new food. In their case, it was a melting pot, but it was one born of a combination of desire, necessity and adaptation.

Today, it's different. I don't honestly have an issue with people keeping up with their native language or culture. In fact, I rather enjoy it. I don't want everyone to be the same. But asking your new home country to cater to your needs not only isn't cool, it's expensive to the public purse. Our previous generations got a hand up, no question. But there's a line between a hand up and a hand out.

Insisting that all government material be printed in multiple languages is a hand out to me, and not a cheap one. I know English is one of the harder languages to learn, but you are not the first to tackle it.

Insisting that the public school system accommodate you because of your foreign birth is a hand out. Money spend that way robs other kids. Our ancestors and their kids fell into the public school system and survived; you can, too.

Insisting that your lack of language skills and newcomer status is the handicap that prevents you from working (and makes you deserving of free social services) robs others who are elderly, ill and truly needy. If you are as able-bodies as my people were, you do what they did - you labor and get educated and life does get better.


ETA: After reading Bean29's post, I have to add that I agree with the sentiment about Americans becoming more diverse in terms of our language skills. We should not run from learning another language. But I also believe that newcomers should not run from learning ours.

My Grandmother talked about practicing english with her siblings too (German) but her father was a farmer and raised horses. Cars were new, horses don't have titles, and I am sure legal documents were less complex, even so, there must have been some weakness in how the farm was titled b/c my Grandma should have inherited part of the farm (she felt her brother cheated her).

I am not sure about people who claim lack of language skills as a handicap worthy of Gov't support I assume either refugees or those from a possession like Puerto Rico. My Polish neighbor (the Grandpa) seems to work FT..he is a tile layer/mason. I think they have their Perm residency, I know the daughter does. Lots of the Indians have Taxis but don't know if they own, and someone else drives or what. DD's friends parents own a liquor store.

I think some base their political views on gossip and heresy not facts.

[bean29]

Aug 3, 2015 11:17:13 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

For being in one of the most segregated metro areas in the country I'd say we aren't doing too bad. 

There are definitely several races and ethnicities represented (granted not in great numbers), every socioeconomic class, and all age groups from the very young families to the retired folks.  From the conversations I've had there isn't a clear political leaning... although the city itself is leans right.  Family types include, foster families, DINKS, Single moms, gay couples, married w/kids. 

Bean and Beth know where I live... it's hard to explain,  but my neighborhood is an older not stylish neighborhood in an upper to middle class city. 

I was looking it up. Per city data the city I think Sroo lives in is 87% white, 4.3% black and 2.7% Hispanic. I thought that was very distorted, so I looked at the county data - our county data I 54% white, 26% black, 13% Hispanic and 3.4% Asian. My city is a little more diverse, but pretty similar.  City data says the city I think Sroo lives in is more educated than average (I was not surprised), and housing stock is older, but it has some very nice architecture in some areas - always had a mix of income levels I guess.  You can't live in this county and be insulated from other races and cultures.   

[resolution]

I think our current immigrants are integrating at the same rate as previous generations. Typically the first generation doesn't learn English well, second is bilingual and third is either bilingual or has forgotten the old language. We have a similar pattern today.

In our church we have 4 English services and 1 Spanish service. The priest just announced on Sunday they are creating a bilingual English/Spanish service because the Spanish congregation children don't understand Spanish well enough to get much out of Spanish mass, but the grandparents don't understand English well enough to get much out of English mass. So they are shooting for a mass the whole families can attend.

[quince]

Less divided. Being a mixed couple is legal now, and definitely draws massively less attention than it would have 40 years ago.

Hawaii has called itself a melting pot. It has a local pidgin with words and grammar from multiple languages in addition to English.  Spam musubis exist, for goodness sake: but people have taken pride in their own family culture and ethnic backgrounds.  Good natured (and sometimes less so) teasing based on ethnic stereotypes is something I grew up with, but it is somehow less threatening and oppressive when there isn't a sharp power differential between the people doing the bantering.

Jokes about how uptight Japanese people or thrifty Chinese people are are not, in my personal opinion, awesome, but I think there is less sting when the groups have similar power than majority/influence holding WASPS talking about "Jewing" someone down, or "Thugs."  So melting pot Hawaii still has always had some distinct flavors.

The divide can be more obvious, because the internet allows members of similar groups to connect even if geographically separated: so the atheists don't need to be buried in the majority Christian population, without anyone to talk to about how they feel and hiding due to fear of being ostracized. People who stand out don't have to camouflage themselves as much, so the illusion of a homogeneous culture that was held by the dominant population is shattered.

Yay.

[Deleted]

I think we just see it more now via Facebook comments/24 hour news cycle. Can you imagine if those would have existed during all the events of the 60's?

I have nothing to prove it but I think more people are not that way today, but a lot of people still are. The stuff you hear when you walk into dive bars in the afternoon is ridiculous (when I had two weeks off between jobs I got to experience it).

[NastyWoman]

I think we don't have a melting pot anymore. People come from other countries but want to maintain the culture they left behind. My feeling is stay there if that's the case. My dad and his siblings learned English and embraced this country. Others don't feel the need and they bring the feelings with them. The angers me more than the freeloading.

I don't see anything wrong with this. As a beloved spinach eater was wont to say " I yam what I yam". My culture includes things like religion, (inter)generational relations, celebrations, etc. and just because I choose to live in the US, doesn't make me any less Dutch.  Heck, my country is so small that if you managed to gather up every single Dutch person in the world (and you can find us just about anywhere) and move them all to the US we would be less than 5% of the population and I could claim minority status

I think we don't have a melting pot anymore. People come from other countries but want to maintain the culture they left behind. My feeling is stay there if that's the case. My dad and his siblings learned English and embraced this country. Others don't feel the need and they bring the feelings with them. The angers me more than the freeloading.

This is a totally separate issue IMO and I fully agree, if you move to a country you need to learn at the least basic communication skills of that place, and if you intend to stay there for a long time you better do better than that.

FWIW: the few times I when I couldn't come up with the perfect word for what I wanted to say and someone got snarky about (as in I can't understand what you are talking about) it my standard response has been and will always be "I'm so sorry but since it offends you so much let's just continue this conversation in Dutch. That should solve the problem."
I'm not touchy about this at all, but every couple of years I run into a total a*sshole who has to proof his/her superiority

[Deleted]

I live in a very large city, one of the most diverse in the nation, and in an old, large subdivision (7,000 homes, 25,000 population) that is the densest and most diverse in the city.  Challenges?  Oh Hell yeah!  We have many, many first generation immigrants from around the globe, legal and otherwise, who speak very limited English but, I believe, add value to our community.  Is this a problem? Can be especially when I am trying to explain why a resident can't own, much less slaughter, a goat.  Not a bad person, just not someone familiar with my culture.  We are also home to an amazing community of political refugees from Burma, Uganda and almost every other war-torn culture in the world.  We have two Bosnian restaurants and, believe me, Bosnian food is awesome! BYOB and a line out the door on the weekends for the lamb shanks