zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 3, 2015 21:01:38 GMT -5
I don't see anything wrong with this. As a beloved spinach eater was wont to say " I yam what I yam". My culture includes things like religion, (inter)generational relations, celebrations, etc. and just because I choose to live in the US, doesn't make me any less Dutch. Heck, my country is so small that if you managed to gather up every single Dutch person in the world (and you can find us just about anywhere) and move them all to the US we would be less than 5% of the population and I could claim minority status This is a totally separate issue IMO and I fully agree, if you move to a country you need to learn at the least basic communication skills of that place, and if you intend to stay there for a long time you better do better than that. FWIW: the few times I when I couldn't come up with the perfect word for what I wanted to say and someone got snarky about (as in I can't understand what you are talking about) it my standard response has been and will always be "I'm so sorry but since it offends you so much let's just continue this conversation in Dutch. That should solve the problem." I'm not touchy about this at all, but every couple of years I run into a total a*sshole who has to proof his/her superiority You need to come to Grand Rapids/Holland. I think 4.5 of the 5 per cent live in these two places!
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Aug 3, 2015 21:50:59 GMT -5
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 3, 2015 21:52:34 GMT -5
I think things are better now than they have been.
I'm not sure where the woman linked in the OP got the idea that America was once a land of holding hands and singing Koumbyah.
But Zib has a point, in different times, immigrants made the effort to learn English and integrate into society. Now it seems many want society to cater to them. Depends on the immigrants, depends often on where they came from. Some folks learn enough English to get by, others add it to their growing list of languages they know. Honestly, I want to learn Spanish now, because I think overall, it is the second most important language to know overall, if you live here in the US.
People who speak Spanish as their first language come from so many countries - Spain, Mexico, Brazil to name just a few.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 3, 2015 21:58:15 GMT -5
I live in a very large city, one of the most diverse in the nation, and in an old, large subdivision (7,000 homes, 25,000 population) that is the densest and most diverse in the city. Challenges? Oh Hell yeah! We have many, many first generation immigrants from around the globe, legal and otherwise, who speak very limited English but, I believe, add value to our community. Is this a problem? Can be especially when I am trying to explain why a resident can't own, much less slaughter, a goat. Not a bad person, just not someone familiar with my culture. We are also home to an amazing community of political refugees from Burma, Uganda and almost every other war-torn culture in the world. We have two Bosnian restaurants and, believe me, Bosnian food is awesome! BYOB and a line out the door on the weekends for the lamb shanks Wow. Jealous about the Bosnian food. Some day when I am braver, I want to visit all the countries that were formerly part of Yugoslavia. I think I have met or know of people who have lived in all of them, except perhaps Bosnia. Would love to see Croatia, Macedonia, and Albania especially.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 3, 2015 22:08:10 GMT -5
I think things are better now than they have been.
I'm not sure where the woman linked in the OP got the idea that America was once a land of holding hands and singing Koumbyah.
But Zib has a point, in different times, immigrants made the effort to learn English and integrate into society. Now it seems many want society to cater to them. Depends on the immigrants, depends often on where they came from. Some folks learn enough English to get by, others add it to their growing list of languages they know. Honestly, I want to learn Spanish now, because I think overall, it is the second most important language to know overall, if you live here in the US.
People who speak Spanish as their first language come from so many countries - Spain, Mexico, Brazil to name just a few.
Brazilians actually speak Portuguese. That's their national language and the majority speak only Portuguese.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 5, 2015 8:26:19 GMT -5
At the risk of going off on a tangent, I am more troubled by the way we have all retreated into our own homes -- a more real and personal divide. Drive through your town -- are kids playing in the yards? Are they playing with a bunch of kids of varying ages from the neighborhood? Or, if they are playing, are they playing with a carefully selected group of friends whose parents mirror your own values and beliefs? Do you know all of your neighbors' names? Do you socialize with your neighbors? Can you trust and rely on your neighbors for help or to simply take in your mail while you are away? Do you jump in and help your neighbors -- lending tools, cat-sitting, emergency contact for their children's school? Do you know which neighbors are ill/lonely/struggling? Do you look beyond surface beauty (size of home; make, model, and year of car; vacations; etc.) to see the real people living on your street? I personally think that we've segregated from each other at such a personal level (due to the lure of television, video games, the internet, KUWJ), and that that divide is so real and so threatening, that racism/ethnic origin/religious faith/socioeconomic level become excuses for a lack of personal connection. JMHO. YMMV. I realize you see this as a negative...I see it as a positive. With improvements in technology I can now have interactions and relationships with people I WANT to have that with, rather than the people I am relegated to have it with due exclusively to physical proximity of being neighbors. I don't need to socialize with my neighbors if I don't want to. I'm not simply playing the lottery hoping that I share common interests and values with people who happen to have housing nearby. You don't have unlimited time...what do you value? Do you value having interactions with people due to how nearby they live, or with people who you enjoy spending time with?
The obvious downside is that when given a choice, people typically pick homogenous groups to associate with and miss out on some of that "I never though I'd like this person, but I really learned a lot from them" situation. The flipside to that is I feel you're far more likely to get a good variety of people in a neighborhood than before. You don't have to worry as much about who the neighbors are, because they're not your only built-in set of friends. So those who ARE interested in that random assortment of neighbors can get that far more easily now.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Aug 5, 2015 8:45:17 GMT -5
I don't see anything wrong with this. As a beloved spinach eater was wont to say " I yam what I yam". My culture includes things like religion, (inter)generational relations, celebrations, etc. and just because I choose to live in the US, doesn't make me any less Dutch. Heck, my country is so small that if you managed to gather up every single Dutch person in the world (and you can find us just about anywhere) and move them all to the US we would be less than 5% of the population and I could claim minority status This is a totally separate issue IMO and I fully agree, if you move to a country you need to learn at the least basic communication skills of that place, and if you intend to stay there for a long time you better do better than that. FWIW: the few times I when I couldn't come up with the perfect word for what I wanted to say and someone got snarky about (as in I can't understand what you are talking about) it my standard response has been and will always be "I'm so sorry but since it offends you so much let's just continue this conversation in Dutch. That should solve the problem." I'm not touchy about this at all, but every couple of years I run into a total a*sshole who has to proof his/her superiority love this. this has always been my dad's attitude toward it as well. he came here at 11 years old, learned English when he got here. granted, his dialect of French is half English anyway... but still. he is a construction foreman who is in his early 60s now, and he gets pissed when his employer hires day laborers that can't understand English. how can he do his job when he can't communicate the day's tasks to the guys he's responsible for?
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Aug 5, 2015 8:54:21 GMT -5
Had to laugh at this one. My son told two of his best workers that they had to learn basic English (told them where they could go to do this - free school program in evenings and he went to learn basic Spanish - worked out well for both. And yes they were legal.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Aug 5, 2015 8:57:55 GMT -5
Had to laugh at this one. My son told two of his best workers that they had to learn basic English (told them where they could go to do this - free school program in evenings and he went to learn basic Spanish - worked out well for both. And yes they were legal. ha, nice. yeah, the day laborers are all legal as well, but they never bothered to learn English. that makes me crazy. as far as meeting in the middle like your son, I had a funny experience on a work trip. I was lost in Venice, trying to find my hotel. I stopped in at a small corner shop to ask directions. the shop owner didn't speak English, and the little Italian I knew as a kid has drifted away since my Nana passed. we made it work though - we both spoke French.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Aug 5, 2015 14:24:49 GMT -5
I need to hand in my I-am-somewhat-smart-cart . I was totally surprised by the fact that your dad is only in his early 60s chiver78. Somehow I always think that the parents of posters here are (much) older than I am. Yet, DS1 was born in '78 as well so I better start digging for that card so I can return it
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Aug 5, 2015 17:30:06 GMT -5
In one of my college classes .. I can't remember which one it was.. We were talking about about the symbolism in American culture. One of the things that was said that the founding fathers did not intend the word "God" to mean the Christian God, but instead a higher entity. They did this purposely because they knew they need to quickly get some symbols out there to unify the country and to bring people together under a set of patriotic thinking. They wanted the flag, anthem/songs, characters/heroes, money, etc to reinforce the new country and ideals and they came up with ways that worked. A pseudo religious movement was created... but instead of religious icons and songs, they used patriotic. The question is now... are we rejecting the 'American Religion'? I'm probably wording this very badly, but it was an interesting discussion and one that I think is still relevant. There has been a really big shift in my lifetime from the majority rule in this country to the minority rule. People are more willing to identify themselves with their smaller groups than they are with Americans as whole. While I think there was and still is the self-segregating enclaves (love the use of this word here), I think there was more American Patriotism within those groups. Interesting thoughts.
I've been wondering lately about if we've become too individualistic as a society, ever seeking more and more "rights."
While "rights" have a positive connotation, it does seem that it's becoming increasingly about "MY rights." Everyone is conscious about "MY rights" and "my entitlements" and the pursuit of that ever elusive quality known as "equality" rather than the good of the whole.
Sometimes I wish people would take the focus of their rights and entitlements and spend some time focusing on serving the nation and it's people.
As JFK said "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country."
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Aug 5, 2015 17:37:26 GMT -5
At the risk of going off on a tangent, I am more troubled by the way we have all retreated into our own homes -- a more real and personal divide. Drive through your town -- are kids playing in the yards? Are they playing with a bunch of kids of varying ages from the neighborhood? Or, if they are playing, are they playing with a carefully selected group of friends whose parents mirror your own values and beliefs? Do you know all of your neighbors' names? Do you socialize with your neighbors? Can you trust and rely on your neighbors for help or to simply take in your mail while you are away? Do you jump in and help your neighbors -- lending tools, cat-sitting, emergency contact for their children's school? Do you know which neighbors are ill/lonely/struggling? Do you look beyond surface beauty (size of home; make, model, and year of car; vacations; etc.) to see the real people living on your street? I personally think that we've segregated from each other at such a personal level (due to the lure of television, video games, the internet, KUWJ), and that that divide is so real and so threatening, that racism/ethnic origin/religious faith/socioeconomic level become excuses for a lack of personal connection. JMHO. YMMV. I've seen studies that suggest that lonliness is more of an epidemic now than it has ever been, despite all the ways we have to connect.
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quince
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Post by quince on Aug 5, 2015 17:53:27 GMT -5
I'm heterosexual. Minority, but one that isn't the most oppressed ever. Have money.
My rights are fine. If abortion/birth control rights are curtailed, and I have a very unlikely accident, I actually probably have the resources to travel and take care of myself ANYWAY. For me, as long as I can travel freely, vote, have property rights and am considered to able to make decisions for myself, I'm in good shape.
People who have privilege and advocate or support the rights of others ARE focusing on serving the people. The concern for the rights of others, despite being themselves in secure positions is them trying to improve their country as best they can. There are definitely those who do it in a clueless, no idea what they are talking about, taking it too goddamned far fashion, but there are plenty of people who do this from a position of education, indirect experience, and passion for making things, in their eyes, better. (I am not talking about myself, here. All I do is donate and provide support as a friend to those in my circle, because I'm useless.)
People whose rights are actually curtailed might rightfully not give a fuck about doing anything for the country that steps on them. The argument that there exist other countries that are more oppressive to that group is a shitty one: you don't tell a person whose significant other controls them financially and isolates them from others that they should suck it up, because at least they aren't being beaten or murdered.
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